Who has better supernatural heroes/villians

[Riffster]

DC has Spectre, Phantom Stranger, Demon, Dr. Fate, Zatanna, Neron, Blaze,Satanus.

Marvel has- Dr Stange, Brother Voodoo,Dormamu, Ghost Rider, Son of Satan

for the gods both companies use the greek/romans, Dc doesn't really use the Norse gods too much, not like Marvels Thor. Marvel uses Hercules alot better too.

Marvel hasn't used the Titans like Dc has though

[The Toyroom]

If you're talking supernatural with tinges of horror/gothic elements, I've always preferred guys like The Spectre, Phantom Stranger, The Demon, Dr. Fate, Zatanna, Blue Devil, Swamp Thing, John Constantine, etc. Plus I think DC has made more of an effort to have them inhabit the same universe as opposed to what Marvel has done with Ghost Rider, Dr. Strange et al. ...there doesn't seem to be the same cohesiveness as the DCU.

But on the flip side, I think Marvel has done a better job integrating their godly characters with one another. The different pantheons seem to exist on the same level. Whereas DC has had things all over the place. The mini-series War of the Gods was supposed to rectify that but I don't think it really completed that task. At DC there have been, what 4 or 5 versions of Hercules/Herakles alone?

[thunderbolt]

Marvel also has Morbius, Man-Thing, Werewolf by Night, and Frankenstein and Dracula.

[samurainoir]

I'd say DC does, but the problem really occurred by ghettoizing them over in the Vertigo imprint instead of allowing them do continue to grow and interact in the DCU.

DC has reaped tremendous success in their ongoing titles, both financially and creatively if you take into account Swamp Thing, Sandman, and all their various spinoffs like Hellblazer etc.

Other than Ghost Rider, Marvel really has had difficulty sustaining any Supernatural oriented series for long in the past couple of decades.

[johnnystorm]

I agree that DC works their magic/supernatural heroes into the line in a much more seamless manner- Phantom Stranger is a JLA member, and look at Dr. Fate & Spectre in JSA. Compare that to Doctor Strange as an Avenger or even Scarlet Witch. SW is treated as if her magical abilities (such as they are) are an offshoot of the psuedo--scientific mutant gene. At DC there seems to be a better understanding of just how powerful each hero is as well- Phantom Stranger for example can do some weird stuff but he never really casts spells and transports people around like Zatanna does.

Marvel has done a better job of treating their horror-style characters better as a genre, probably due to the old b/w magazine treatments. But Marvel cannot get a supernatural based hero to function within the Marvel Universe seamlesssly without taking the non-magic character out of their element and making it awkward... with the exception being The Defenders series, which owed a lot to the talents of Englehart & Gerber. Just look at this Franken-Castle storyline, although I admit I kinda like it.

At DC, Batman can team-up with Zatanna or the Demon in a pretty straightforward manner (or witness the last B&B issue Demon & aquaman for a great example)..., but Spidey & Ghost Rider or Brother Voodo require Spidey to act all weirded out and uneasy.

DC's only bad idea (IMHO) is that Vertigo wall wherein Swamp Thing, Constantine, & Sandman/Endless are cut off from the DCU proper. I'd love to see a Batman-Swampy story again, or even a straightforward Swampy story that doesn't have to be all gross, disturbing, and f-worded up. Or something done in JSA with Dream & Sand. Can't understand the logic behind the seperation.

As for villains though, I think Marvel has a better magic-supernatural lot- Dormammu, Loki, Mordo, Dr. Doom, etc clearly blow away the likes of Lord Satanus, Neron, Blaze, Tala. And Marvel's villains can go up against the avengers or Defenders much better than say Neron matches up against JLA.

I also agree with Toyroom about the Marvel god pantheons, something DC has never had a handle on in any way, not even in Wonder Woman. At Marvel the gods are somewhat more accessible & humanized yet still mighty...at DC they get all esoteric and wordy. Marvel of course was set up by how Thor & the Asgardians were portrayed, and the other pantheons sort of work out of that. Like you said, DC constantly re-invents Hercules (at least 2-3 times in Wonder Woman alone!).

[The Toyroom]

DC's only bad idea (IMHO) is that Vertigo wall wherein Swamp Thing, Constantine, & Sandman/Endless are cut off from the DCU proper. I'd love to see a Batman-Swampy story again, or even a straightforward Swampy story that doesn't have to be all gross, disturbing, and f-worded up.

I think some of Swampy's best pre-Vertigo appearances was when he teamed up with Batman or others in the DCU (the Supes team-up against Solmon Grundy comes to mind). I like what Alan Moore did with the character but once it got in the hands of Rick Veitch and others after that it wasn't the same "Swamp Thing" anymore. And cutting him off from the DCU proper seems like a bogus move.

[samurainoir]

[QUOTE=johnnystorm;514642

DC's only bad idea (IMHO) is that Vertigo wall wherein Swamp Thing, Constantine, & Sandman/Endless are cut off from the DCU proper. I'd love to see a Batman-Swampy story again, or even a straightforward Swampy story that doesn't have to be all gross, disturbing, and f-worded up. Or something done in JSA with Dream & Sand. Can't understand the logic behind the seperation.
[/QUOTE]

At this point, I think it's probably got more to do with territorial grounds within the Corporate structure than anything else. Particularly when they start looking at the comics as R&D for the film/tv/media and licensing arms.

When it comes to things like the Constantine Movie, Watchmen movie and related merchandise, the upcoming Losers, (is the Human Target TV show considered Vertigo), and all the movie/media deals in place for Swamp Thing and Sandman, I'm sure Karen Berger and the rest of the Vertigo crew need to get their credit for the "win" to justify their continued existence as a seperate imprint. Particularly in the accounting department!

Given the other imprints that have come and gone from DC over the years (Helix, Paradox, Pirahna, Mad, various kids imprints), it might be a legitimate reason to be so territorial.

My understanding is that for the DCU to get Animal Man back, they had to trade him for the Deadman name and concept. Which probably explains why Boston Brand is alive again!

[The Toyroom]

My understanding is that for the DCU to get Animal Man back, they had to trade him for the Deadman name and concept. Which probably explains why Boston Brand is alive again!

Whatever happened to that Bruce Jones "non-Boston Brand" Deadman series? How'd that turn out?

[samurainoir]

I think some of Swampy's best pre-Vertigo appearances was when he teamed up with Batman or others in the DCU (the Supes team-up against Solmon Grundy comes to mind). I like what Alan Moore did with the character but once it got in the hands of Rick Veitch and others after that it wasn't the same "Swamp Thing" anymore. And cutting him off from the DCU proper seems like a bogus move.

Even Mark Millar had to make up a bunch of analogue characters on his run.. The Word in place of the The Spectre, Black Box in place of Green Lantern (although they did manage to get Soloman Grundy, probably based on the Vietch stuff). Although there were some spare characters lying around as well.. Sargon and a few others.

I think both DC and Vertigo could be richer with some more flow between the two imprints and the characters they share.

[madmarva]

Maybe with the new CEO structure at DC, Swampy and Constantine could be re-integrated back into the DCU. However, I understand that Karen Berger is given a wide berth.

But all of Moore's SwampThing work was in the DCU and Constantine started in that run. Sandman actually had some super heroes appear in the book early in the run.

I'd like to see Swampthing and Grundy and Killer Croc go at it. JMS should have done that in Brave and Bold.

The Spectre is one of my favorite characters. Ostrander's run on that book was fantastic, and I loved Fleisher and Aparo's 1970s run and Murphy Anderson and Adams art on the series back in the late 1960s. Has DC reprinted those stories?

Dr. Fate is a character I've always liked the idea of, but I don't think anyone at DC knows what to do with him.

As for Phantom Stranger, he just seems like the Rod Serling of the DCU to me. Deadman's also fun.

But most of these characters are of the supporting-type to me.

Dr. Strange, though, is a really cool character and I would agree that Marvel's supernatural villains are bigger threats than the DCU's, although Nekron make a pretty good super-natural/pseudo-science threat in Blackest Night.

I also loved Werewolf By Night and Tomb of Dracula in the 1970s. The showdown between Dracula and Dr. Strange in the 1980s was cool as was the recent Captain Britain vs. Dracula story was pretty cool, too. Sorry that title got canceled.

This is off topic, but what I would dearly love is from some comic book publisher to get the license for the Universal Monsters and basically do a Wolfman vs. Dracula series, spring-boarding off the more serious parts of Abbott and Costello Meets Frankenstein.
Basically having Larry Talbot and the Frankenstein's monster hunting down Dracula, with the art based on Lugosi, Chaney Jr. and Karloff's likenesses. Arcs in the past, present and near future. You could flesh out all of their origins, pick up a supporting cast that ages and dies. I'd dearly love to read such a book or even write it. But, I'm probably the only one.

[The Toyroom]

The Spectre is one of my favorite characters. Ostrander's run on that book was fantastic, and I loved Fleisher and Aparo's 1970s run and Murphy Anderson and Adams art on the series back in the late 1960s. Has DC reprinted those stories?

There was five-issue reprint of the Fleisher/Aparo Spectre back in the early Baxter days, titled Wrath of the Spectre. Similarly to the Neal Adams Bravae and Bold reprints and The Saga of Ra's Al Ghul.

[johnnystorm]

At least some of the Ostrander /Mandrake run was collected in trade paperback (I have a copy I got them both to sign at a con). The Phantom Stranger Showcase volumes are well worth picking up, I actually just finished reading the second one, great stuff.

Dark Horse did adaptions of the Universal Monsters quite a few years back- Dracula, Frankenstein, Creature from the Black Lagoon, & The Mummy. I've seen the Mummy, Drac & Frankie around, but the Creature by Art Adams is kinda pricey. I think though it was reprinted in a Art Adams trade though. ... Dell did adaptions too in the mid-60s that you can find for $5-10 on Ebay. Be sure though to get the Movie Classics one-shots and not the atrocious super-hero versions!!!

[samurainoir]

I'd like to see Swampthing and Grundy and Killer Croc go at it. JMS should have done that in Brave and Bold.

I had also heard that JMS wanted to use some of the Vertigo characters... specifically Swamp Thing pitted with Luthor as a kind of rematch to the Moore/Vietch stuff.

I actually kind of wish Brian Vaughn's Swamp Thing series starring Tefe had been more successful. Besides being extremely underrated and cancelled prematurely IMHO, it would have freed up "Alec" to some extent as headliner to the ST series, and perhaps allowed him to wander back to the DCU for visits (pure wishful thinking on my part).

[samurainoir]

Ostrander and Mandrake's Spectre was hugely underrated. I always thought that it might have ended up much more successful if they had taken over to Vertigo since it really did fit the pre-Vertigo tone alongside books like Shade, Animal Man and Doom Patrol. Particularly since Vertigo's agressive trade program might have kept that run in print and give a bit more profile. LIkewise, The Demon could have made the transition starting with Garth Ennis' little seen run. Particularly since it tied into Ennis' Hellblazer somewhat.

My understanding is that the initial Vertigo divide was more along editorial offices than anything else (specifically Karen Berger's, and I want to say Tom Peyer's?).

[thunderbolt]

There was a trade of the Fleischer/Aparo Spectre.

http://www.amazon.com/Wrath-Spectre-Michael-Fleisher/dp/1401204740/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271061409&sr=8-9