Have you actually read "Seduction of the innocent"?

[samurainoir]

Anyone remember Tom Hanks in that made for TV movie Mazes and Monsters?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6AOd6r6Qi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGY1_LMiV-g



read the book back in the day as well.

[Brazoo]

Wow - I was pretty lucky I guess. I honestly can't remember a single time in my life that my parents took anything from me that way.

> There’s a lot of spurious logic going on there.

For sure! The parents claim that they "never heard of the game" until after he took his own life - so how much attention were they paying to this kid? I'm not saying the blame is on them 100%, but by their own admission they were not aware of a an obsession in their kid's life. Something is wrong there.

The grieving mother is the most disturbing part of this. Partially because I feel bad for her and partially because I can't stand her. She makes it seem like she didn't even know about D&D before her kid killed himself, but then says the kid threatened his sister's life if she told their parents he played D&D. First of all, what older sibling HASN'T threatened the life of their younger sibling at some point? "If you tell mom I'll kill you!" Big deal! What older sibling HASN'T said that? Second, why would he be so scarred of his parents finding out about the fact that he played D&D unless they already disapproved of it? The parent's story just doesn't add up.

The thing with the wack-job doctor and the follow up is just mind blowing. The level headed sounding police expert with experience investigating teen-age suicide cases gets less than a quarter of the screen time that the ranting nut job Doctor promoting fear gets. And this kind of thing is on TV all the time.

It's hard for me to say what I think of Geraldo without using profanity, but lately I've been reading a fair amount about the Satanism hysteria of the 80s and 90s and he certainly added fuel to the fire with some pretty dire consequences. Those satanic cult cases are another great example of how this kind of overreactive fear can lead to tragedy.

Don - just out of curiosity, were some of the concerns about D&D related to fears of satanism at all?

[ctc]

>The trouble is the unbalanced mind tends to fixate to things

BALANCED ones too! Look at some of the things people around HERE lose their minds over.... stuff like Batman comics, minor details on figures.... stuff that doesn't matter. Add some genuine consequence and I can see how folks lose focus. I don't CONDONE it, but I kinda understand. Like I said, the D&D thing seemed pretty universal around here: otherwise reasonable adults who wouldn't even crack a book to see for themselves if there was really a problem.

Don C.

[palitoy]

The trouble is the unbalanced mind tends to fixate to things, numbers, the bible, comic books. I'm of the belief that it doesn't really matter what the subject matter is, they'll still do the deed.

Case in point, at my wife's job a few years back, she began to get threatening letters from a customer. We discovered had murdered a woman in the 1970s and was recently released from an institution.

Prior to the threats, he knew my wife because he bought road maps and atlases from her, he was obsessed with them. Talked about them and had a large collection, it was his life. If he struck again, would this launch a crusade against paper maps?

The trouble is sometimes you just don't see the signs, I had a friend a few years back who seemed perfectly fine, one day he hung himself at work. No real warning, seemed the same. I guess in those circumstances, you look for things to blame.

[ctc]

>They can't figure out that being "obsessed" with fantasy roll playing might be a sign of being unhappy in real life?

There’s a lot of spurious logic going on there. Note how they ask Gygax if he’d see a link if one factor could be attached to all the suicides.... implying that the link was D&D, but really; they were all teenagers, all in high school, apparently all wore glasses.... But at the time D&D was the new thing, and people HATE new so that MUST be the problem. Back in the day Geraldo did a two part expose on the whole thing that was an absolute MARVEL of yellow journalism. I’ve been looking for it, but no luck. The 60 Minutes bit is similar, but not as over the top. (Geraldo filmed an “actual” game in progress.)

Sometimes the overall effect is sad, like the woman who started BADD because she saw the game as the reason why her perfect son would kill himself. (Perfect in HER eyes, anyhoo.) She probably couldn’t see any of the other problems, and couldn’t accept that maybe if she had, things would be different. Or maybe not; we don’t know how unhappy the kid was, so it’s tough to say if ANYTHING could have helped. But people tend to draw a conclusion and then spin the facts to fit; and if you’re driven enough a crusade is born.

I’d heard of Wertham’s crusade against comics prior to this, but it wasn’t until I was on the receiving end of the witch-hunt that I really understood.

I can’t stress enough how much of an effect the D&D flap had on me. It showed me how really stupid and fearful people can be, how quickly they’ll jump on a cause, and how closed minded most people are. I think that’s why I’m so irritated by geezerisms now that I’m old and surrounded by those who espouse them. Every time I hear how “Bratz are evil, comics are way tool violent, video games will rot your brain, wearing your pants around your hips will turn you into a thug, and don’t get me started on the music!” it brings to mind all the hand-wringing concerned citizens I had to deal with back in the day.

Don C.

[samurainoir]

there are always sheep-like parents out there who refuse to take responsibility for their own kids, and always look for outside things to blame.

I think this really nails it on the head with regards to the 60 Minutes story. What really jumped out at me was the fact that there is no question about HOW THE KID GOT A-HOLD OF HIS DAD'S HANDGUN?

So they decide to blame D&D instead of acknowledging that their kid shouldn't have had access to the gun that he killed himself with.

[Brazoo]

Actually this 60 minutes story is very sad. Some amazing denial going on here for sure. They can't figure out that being "obsessed" with fantasy roll playing might be a sign of being unhappy in real life?

Ugh - every second of this video is making me crazy actually. And the follow up with that wackjob Dr. is unreal!

[Brazoo]

Haha! Wow, I did NOT expect THAT!

[ctc]

>how little things have changed in the way the media reacts to this kind of populist crap-science.
>some parents think "MY kid would NEVER do anything wrong/stupid/dangerous"

Maybe only semi-related; but ti illustrate those points here's my fave example of that sort of thinking, from an issue that shaped a great deal of my distrust for authority in all it's forms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbcWK...ext=1&index=28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lN0n...ext=1&index=26

Don C.

[Brazoo]

It's a shifting of responsibility 100%, but I also think think part of the mentality is that some parents think "MY kid would NEVER do anything wrong/stupid/dangerous" and the truth is ALL KIDS at some point do something wrong/stupid/dangerous - so when it happens they look for external things they think made it happen. It's just way easier to find fault with outside forces instead of blaming your kid or yourself.

It's like when you see someone walking on the sidewalk and they trip you think "they tripped", but when you or I are walking and we trip we think "something made me trip". We tend to look for external influences for our own actions (or in this case our children's actions), but hold other people responsible for their own actions. We just tend to think that way naturally.

Anyway, the fact is that Wertham's followers won - the comics code was put into effect - statistically did children commit less crime?

[fallensaviour]

Wow, deja vu!
Wertham was a crackpot and unfortunately there are always sheep-like parents out there who refuse to take responsibility for their own kids, and always look for outside things to blame. It happened in the 50's and it's happening today.
It's scary how much influence one "doctor" with some half baked theory can end up having. Senate hearings? Organized comic book burnings? Really??? How did it come to that??
And I will never forgive that idiot for effectively killing the finest comic book company that ever existed.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head!!!
As a parent I know what my children read and watch!
Why you might ask,because I have a vast library(yes that's right I have real paper books on shelves)
So I give them books to read when we go to the library I let them pick out books and I give them the yes or no on the spot before they check out.
At home I watch shows with them.
Internet is also monitored.
Video games are checked out.
It's called being an active parent.I don't need the government,doctors,psychiatrists or parenting groups on Oprah giving me there opinions on these things.
I grew up on Elvis,ccr,ac/dc,kiss an motley crue I played D&D and video games.
Guess what I never killed anybody growing up hell I even became a paramedic and saved lives.
Use your brains people of the earth!!!

Now having said that.People are free to do say and write whatever they want to.It's their right to do so and I can make my judgements from there.
kudos to him for getting published that the dreams of a lot of people but shame on him for being a nut job and taking advantage of lesser minded individuals...!!!

[cjefferys]

Wow, deja vu!

Wertham was a crackpot and unfortunately there are always sheep-like parents out there who refuse to take responsibility for their own kids, and always look for outside things to blame. It happened in the 50's and it's happening today.

It's scary how much influence one "doctor" with some half baked theory can end up having. Senate hearings? Organized comic book burnings? Really??? How did it come to that??

And I will never forgive that idiot for effectively killing the finest comic book company that ever existed.


I

[Brazoo]

My agaenda is Peas and carrots. Seperate.

Comics for kids , comics for adults.

Yeah - I have to disagree with you and side with samurainoir here. There isn't any recent movement that I can think of to create a ratings system for regular books, for example. That system seems to work fine.

It really seems to me that in most cases people who want censorship or ratings systems are reacting more to the mediums they don't like, not the content. And either way it's not very conducive to the idea of free speech.

[samurainoir]

In regards to today? I'm thinking that the "bookstore" approach that many publishers and forward-thinking retailers have taken has sufficiently addressed the issue without necessarily going to a ratings system.

I think it's rather obvious that this trade dress isn't meant for kids...


versus this one...



Think of how they handled the growing adult audience for Harry Potter a few years ago.

Adult Cover that they stuck in the adult Fantasy section of the bookstore...


versus the one they stuck in the kids section...


The problem takes care of itself most of the time in the way the packaging and marketing is handled.


Most parents know enough not to take their five year old into a movie theatre if this is the poster in front of it right?


At the video store you'll rent this one for your five year old...

[TrueDave]

You know I saw a photocopied Swamp Thing that was censored. Where he was suppossed to come back in time to meet Christ. I wanted to buy it but couldnt afford it.

DC had a lot of more mature stuff in the 1980s.

My agaenda is Peas and carrots. Seperate.

Comics for kids , comics for adults.

I didnt even like the normally Hot Topic only horror figures I saw in teh action figure isles at Toys r us last time.

Of relevant interest to this discussion around censorship, ratings and labeling is Steve Bissette recounting of the 1980's ratings controversy over at DC and the resultant impact and fallout.

SRBissette.com - SpiderBaby Archives: The DC/Marvel Ratings Debacles 1986-87, Part 1

It's quite an investment in time to plough through all 12 Parts, but I would be interested in what folks think about the hard stand many top creators for DC took in the 80's.