Have you actually read "Seduction of the innocent"?

[thunderbolt]

The Simpsons even got presidential bashing from George and Babs Bush.

[samurainoir]

There is a rumour that the producers of Married with Children sent the woman who spearheaded protests against them a fruitbasket every year they were renewed for another season for about a decade.

There was a huge ratings surge for the show on the fledgling Fox Network at the time the protests started and MwC went on to become one of the most popular and long running shows on Fox.

They couldn't have bought that kind of publicity.
(same with the protests around The Simpsons)

[ctc]

>either way it's not very conducive to the idea of free speech

Funny thung with ratings systems; they actually WORSEN the "problem" 'cos you open up legit lines for more scandalous material. The PMRC got mentioned, and some of you propbably remember the video game flap of the 90's that led to a game rating sytem. And if it wasn't for those, we wouldn't have Gangsta rap or Grand Theft Auto since both wouldn't have recieved mainstream release. The complaints generated publicity (nobody cared about Mortal Kombat when it came out, but a year later when we learned it was bad for us....) and the rating system allows mainstream companies to go all hardcore 'cos they can just slap on a disclaimer. (There's a great discussion of this in the "Heavy: The Story of Metal" doccumentary.) I think the Senate hearings on comics was the only time this sort of thing WORKED; probably because it was the only time any sort of consequence was forwarded by the target. (That is, the publishers who enacted the code.)

....although I recall the video game rating system was self-inflicted too.

Don C.

[thunderbolt]

Aha-ha-ha! The PMRC photo on Wiki of that collection of weirdos with super-concerned looks on their faces is just priceless!

Here's a great "Mad" swipe at Wertham:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...cWerthless.jpg

Nail on the head, the nut job Wertham could have taken anything and turned it into the reason kids are delinquants, he just chose comics.

[cjefferys]

"Wertham was a crackpot!" Are you repeating someone else or have you read him ?

I read Seduction of the Innocent in it's entirety when I was in university. I stand by my statement that Wertham was a crackpot. Maybe a fame ***** too.

Have you read EVERy issue of EC . Have you seen the content?

I've probably missed some of the pre-trend stuff, but I've read virtually all of the New Trend and New Direction stuff. I've been reading EC for nearly 30 years now. So yes, I'm quite familiar with the content.

Gaines Jr just sprung the NEW DiRECTION on the stands to appeal to the vets who had just returned and sen some hard stuff and wanted thier comics harder.

Not at all. The New Direction titles were a desperate effort for EC to stay alive due to the Code restrictions. Since horror and crime titles were practically banned (including some of the words EC used in the very titles themselves), they had to scramble to create new titles and new genres to replace the horror and crime stuff. And since most of these issues were code approved, it was hardly "the hard stuff". Unfortunately, it was horror and crime that was their bread and butter, EC used the profits from those books to publish the lesser selling books like the SF and war stuff, just because they were proud of those books.

I don't think anyone on here argued that all material is equally appropriate for kids and adults. A few of us are just arguing FOR parental responsibility and AGAINST censorship. The code did NOT stop kids from being influenced in negative ways and committing crimes. It DID kill EC Comics and nearly destroyed the comic industry.

The code was a complete sham. If you think it's main purpose was protecting kids as a rating system you should do some more research. It was created by EC's competition because they were too cowardly to stand up for their own rights while Gaines was busy defending free speech. The code was just a political maneuver which was also used by the other publishers to add all kinds of anti-EC comics concessions to weaken EC in the market. Famously one new rule stated that the words "horror" or "terror" or "weird" could not be used on a cover. That doesn't sound like a deliberate attempt to take down EC to you?

On top of everything else the code authority even had a creepy anti-progressive agenda. They objected to an EC story where an astronaut revealed that he was black at the end. So no, I really don't think there was much value in the code.

Exactly. You took the words out my mouth, you nailed it.

[Brazoo]

Aha-ha-ha! The PMRC photo on Wiki of that collection of weirdos with super-concerned looks on their faces is just priceless!

Here's a great "Mad" swipe at Wertham:

[thunderbolt]

How could you tell every book , website , video game , movie, etc was appropriate if things like the Comics Seal wasnt created?

Hey its great stuff warped minds like Carpenter, King, Speilburg, etc.

BUT it wasnt suitable for kids.

You want your kid reading a comic that shows a guy throwing his girlfriend off a rollercoaster because he finds out she pregnant? On teh cover?

So, if you were a parent, you'd depend on others to tell your children what was appropriate for them to view, read, etc? That's the damn parents' job. When you start letting others tell you what is ok and not ok you are going down the slippery slope of censorship. PMRC anyone?

[ctc]

>Those satanic cult cases are another great example of how this kind of overreactive fear can lead to tragedy.

The problem with this sort of thing is that it snowballs, in an ad-hoc kinda way. The D&D thing came first, but was quickly usurped into a “satanists are secretly taking over!!!” idea. Add on a “recovered memory” flap for good measure, play off people’s fear of kids and time’s not being “what they USED to be” and voila! There was an ex-FBI agent who wrote a book about it; about how many hours were wasted looking for evil cults. (I specifically remember him discussing all the alleged sacrifices that were being done, how there wasn’t anywhere’s near enough missing persons cases to account for them all, so the investigation spent millions on trying to find the baby farms where kids were raised for sacrifice.)

>Parents back then thought when a kid was going to get comics he was buying Casper the Ghost and Superman.

Herein lies part of the problem: at the time, comics weren’t just for kids. Almost everyone read comics. So there was a lot of stuff out there not appropriate for kids, but it wasn’t rare or esoteric. Parents shouldn’t have been surprised by something like “Crime SuspenStories.” They weren’t exactly hiding the content. But the inquest put the idea in people’s heads that ALL comics SHOULD be kid safe. THAT was the problem because it was a fundamentally wrong notion. And the other publishers jumped on board ‘cos EC; with their icky-bad comics were by far the top sellers. (Probably because their more mature audience content was attractive to a larger audience. Imagine that, “Vault of Horror” as a proper general audience book!) The Code was self-imposed by the industry, and went a long way towards dethroning EC.

It’s always seemed odd to me that comic books were censored so heavily; but NOT newspaper comic strips. Dick Tracy could dispatch his foes in numerous gruesome ways, but Fates help you if Superman fought a vampire.... (We know who’d win, anyhoo.) It seems to me that the inquest was where the “comics is’ fer kids!” idea got insinuated into N. American thinking. But then again; people have always done what they’re told. If Geraldo says it’s bad for you, it MUST be.

>why again is a Child Psychologist who works in teh inner city a crackpot because he made parents aware of what was out there?

‘Cos he used spurious logic to support his idea. Wertham gathered up a bunch of delinquents and asked if they read comics. Since EVERYONE did back then, they of course said yes. It’d be like rounding up a bunch of axe murderers and asking if they wear shoes; and then using the inevitable answer to pass my thesis that shoes make people into axe murderers.

And it seems odd that he’d NEED to inform parents of something that was really, REALLY obvious. He flavourized it for them; gave an excuse to the concerned citizens. “Crime SuspenStories?!? Violent drivel! Shocking Tales?!?! Lurid trash! Why can’t you kids like GOOD comics, like Dick Tracy and L’il Abner?”

Don C.

[Brazoo]

TrueDave - with all due respect, I actually think a few of us argued against some of these points already - It's 100% fine if you disagree, but if you want to converse maybe you should respond to other people's points instead of just posting the same opinions again and again.

I don't think anyone on here argued that all material is equally appropriate for kids and adults. A few of us are just arguing FOR parental responsibility and AGAINST censorship. The code did NOT stop kids from being influenced in negative ways or committing crimes. It DID kill EC Comics and nearly destroyed the comic industry.

The code was a complete sham. If you think it's main purpose was protecting kids as a rating system you should do some more research. It was created by EC's competition because they were too cowardly to stand up for their own rights while Gaines was busy defending free speech. The code was just a political maneuver which was also used by the other publishers to add all kinds of anti-EC comics concessions to weaken EC in the market. Famously one new rule stated that the words "horror" or "terror" or "weird" could not be used on a cover. That doesn't sound like a deliberate attempt to take down EC to you?

On top of everything else the code authority even had a creepy anti-progressive agenda. They objected to an EC story where an astronaut revealed that he was black at the end. So no, I really don't think there was much value in the code.

If you still think the code was anything other than business and PR maneuvering then read the original actual Code sometime - I think you're in for a few surprises.

I just found this great quote from Scott McCloud on the comics code: "the list of requirements a film needs to receive a G rating was doubled, and there were no other acceptable ratings!"

[samurainoir]

That seems random.

Not random within the context that the conversation had migrated to the 80's scare-mongering around D&D for the last page and a half of the thread.

Is your point Comics can make people go Don Quioxte and think they are a Real Life Superhero?

That would be this book, published in the eighties as well.

Amazon.com: The Kryptonite Kid (9780030577987): Joseph Torchia: Books

[TrueDave]

^^^ Parents are supposed to be "the system" that monitors what kids read and see.

How could you tell every book , website , video game , movie, etc was appropriate if things like the Comics Seal wasnt created?

Hey its great stuff warped minds like Carpenter, King, Speilburg, etc.

BUT it wasnt suitable for kids.

You want your kid reading a comic that shows a guy throwing his girlfriend off a rollercoaster because he finds out she pregnant? On teh cover?

[TrueDave]

That seems random.

LOVED that movie. was excited to find teh VHS at a flea Market

AWSOME!


Is teh book as good?

Is your point Comics can make people go Don Quioxte and think they are a Real Life Superhero?

Done.

Shadowhare, Citizen Prime, Geist, Master LEgend, . . . .

Anyone remember Tom Hanks in that made for TV movie Mazes and Monsters?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6AOd6r6Qi8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGY1_LMiV-g

http://vbaudoin.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mazesmonstersvhscover.jpg

read the book back in the day as well.
http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n4/n21913.jpg

[thunderbolt]

^^^ Parents are supposed to be "the system" that monitors what kids read and see.

[TrueDave]

EC comics is the best company ever( me at 38). I'm missing maybe 15 issues from teh ENTIRE 1990s line and I have read them several times.



Have you read them both?

"Wertham was a crackpot!" Are you repeating someone else or have you read him ?

Have you read EVERy issue of EC . Have you seen the content?

Parents back then thought when a kid was going to get comics he was buying Casper the Ghost and Superman.

Gaines Jr just sprung the NEW DiRECTION on the stands to appeal to the vets who had just returned and sen some hard stuff and wanted thier comics harder.

ANd why again is a Child Psychologist who works in teh inner city a crackpot because he made parents aware of what was out there?

If you didnt have him you wouldnt have the systems you use NOW to CENSOR what is right and wrong for your kids.

[fallensaviour]

I remember that movie...LOL

The thing about all those bad things back then was kids were using guns and really I don't recall D&D even having guns in it...

So in reality maybe it was all those buddy cop shows or the old westerns they should have looked at.

All terrible and tragic for sure but the blame was wrongly focused and as for the "Dr.s" I wonder if they even have practices anymore...???

Simply asinine if you ask me.
Now if you'll excuse me I need to polish my +2 Broad sword of insanity!?!?!?!!?!?