Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[samurainoir]

GOODBYE!

ME HATE BIZARRO THE MOST.

NOBODY AM KNOWING BIZARRO BECAUSE JERRY SEINFELD NEVER TALKING ABOUT BIZARRO ON UNPOPULAR TV SHOW.

ME HATE BATZARRO EVEN MORE THAN BIZARRO!


ZIBARRO AM BAD TWIST ON BIZARRO CONCEPT.


ME NO MISS PRE-CRISIS BIZARRO WORLD.

[madmarva]

I always liked the Atomic Skull. What a cool name. The Master Jailer was cool when I was kid, too. Don't really know how you would update him.

[jds1911a1]

GOODBYE!

ME HATE BIZARRO THE MOST.

NOBODY AM KNOWING BIZARRO BECAUSE JERRY SEINFELD NEVER TALKING ABOUT BIZARRO ON UNPOPULAR TV SHOW.

ME HATE BATZARRO EVEN MORE THAN BIZARRO!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mPDOa3Yel4w/SYfF0dowrTI/AAAAAAAAAFI/N9AW7w7k440/s400/BatzarroSM.jpg

ZIBARRO AM BAD TWIST ON BIZARRO CONCEPT.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11785/248531-94657-zibarro_large.jpg

ME NO MISS PRE-CRISIS BIZARRO WORLD.
http://m.homestead.com/files/bworld.gif

Me feel unsame way me miss bizarro world

[jds1911a1]

And don't get me wrong...I think Supes' Rogues Gallery has LOTS of potential....unfortunately it doesn't seem like writers know how to accomplish that.

the problem is making a villian who seems a real challenge for a character whose power is nearly unlimitted. Timm had the same problem with SAS and their superman was weaker than Byrne's

[samurainoir]

It is interesting to note that Superman's Rogues at one time were mostly nerdy guys in suits. Trying to beat Superman with their brains instead of going toe to toe with him.

It's only in the past few decades where we get powerhouses like Doomsday, Maxima, the upgraded bulky Cyborg Metallo, Soloman Grundy making the jump from Green Lantern to Supes bad guy.


Do folks feel that Darkseid is now officially part of Superman's Rogues Gallery?

[huedell]

Very true....you can only base so much opinion on childhood memories from the 70s...Granted a lot of the characters are still the basic archetypes they were back then....But when someone that does read the comics (like me) laments how Superman's writers don't know how to handle his Rogues Gallery and that's why they come in 2nd to Batman's (and that's based on reading experience for almost 40 years), it's hard to get that point across from someone (Hugh) who is just remembering how cool they once might have been and doesn't realize how lame they have become.

I gotta say though, Geoff Johns has breathed new life into a few of Supes' enemies so it IS possible to make them terrifying yet again.

I don't get the whole "Hugh has to read comics" thingie.

I don't read comics much....but comics I HAVE read of Supes'....I've liked
them AND the villains.

That really doesn't matter to me much anyways....I loved the STAS series...
and Supes' villains shone on that.....T.V. counts for something.

Childhood memories? The only "childhood memory" that has any bearing on
this is "I've always loved Superman best." So maybe that's why I think his villains coolest.....I don't know....but I do know ONE thing:
I'm ALLOWED to think Supes' villains rule no matter WHAT a bunch of
comic readers that read more comics than I say

[The Toyroom]

^ Sssshh....Grown-ups are talking

[The Toyroom]

I always liked the Atomic Skull. What a cool name. The Master Jailer was cool when I was kid, too. Don't really know how you would update him.

I love the visuals on both of those guys....Atomic Skull was updated post-Byrne but I didn't care for him. Not sure if MJ has gotten the update treatment. Although if memory serves he knew Clark Kent when he was a kid and we sorta got that with Kenny Braverman (sp)/Conduit.

[huedell]

^ Sssshh....Grown-ups are talking

Awww....the comic geek elitists feelings are being hurt AGAIN....
nothing new around here.

All jabbing aside....I can't believe you have to be "protective of"
and "affected BY" this subject matter as to be so bent on nullifying
my opinion-----its not like live or die stuff.

[palitoy]

You know I really think that we can't down play the popularity of the 1966 series as to why the bat villains are king. I mean they really became part of popular culture, my dad worked in a real tough bar back then and he said absolutely everybody would shut up and watch Batman.

Superman's rogues have never really had that kind of mass media exposure, I mean sure Cesar Romero wasn't a pitch perfect but he sure looked like the guy in the comics.

Not so much with Gene Hackman as Luthor, Zod is the only Superman villain who seems to be on the public's radar and that's entirely because of Terrance Stamp. If people know Bizzarro it's likely because of Seinfeld.

[PNGwynne]

I am not going to derail this thread and defend the Penguin--'though I can, easily.

Toyroom is spot-on about the problem being Superman being increasingly too powerful to sustain a varied Rogues' Gallery--that's why he was "depowered" in the animated series.

I love Luthor, Brainiac, Bizarro, Mxy, Toyman, Parasite, & Metallo. Satanus & Livewire are cool recent additions. And Darkseid is a heavy-hitter DC really needs.

Palitoy make a great point about Batman'66 popularizing foes. TV Supes & Wonder Woman crapped out when it came to villains. Visibility is key.

It seems to me that Batman's RG is creepier, depending on freakishness & insanity. Superman's hinges more on inventiveness & jealousy.

Some foes can be traded around--I mean, Flash's gimmicky foes are not that different than several Bats/Supes rogues...

[The Toyroom]

Awww....the comic geek elitists feelings are being hurt AGAIN....
nothing new around here.

All jabbing aside....I can't believe you have to be "protective of"
and "affected BY" this subject matter as to be so bent on nullifying
my opinion-----its not like live or die stuff.

Don't worry....you're not hurting my feelings in the least. The "nothing new around here" is your "opinion" quite often intruding on what is a semi-serious discussion (yeah I know...comic books, right ) by folks that actually READ what is being discussed.

Now I'm not saying you have to be a die-hard...that would be "elitist"....and that's not what I'm purposing. But it would be nice if you occassionally brought something to the table that's relevant to the discussion at hand, other than opinions formulated years ago.

Now the topic was "Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?"
The answer can be any number of reasons...or you may disagree and think that Supes has the better Rogues. Which is fine...but back up your opinion with some validity other than "I'm not your typical comicfan". You might as well say you liked your Superman coloring book that featured Luthor, Bizarro, Mxy when you were a kid. Which again is fine, but there's a lot more to Superman and his Rogues than just a first impression.

And this is not meant to nullify yours or anyone else's opinion because they don't read as many books as I do or someone else does. My knowledge is not omnipotent by no means. But I feel I can back up my opinion 100 different ways to Sunday without resorting to the "geek" calling or the "not your typical comicfan" mantra you always bring out.

You seem to like the Bronze Age characters...which is fine. But realize that it's been a long time since the Bronze Age and many of those characters have been revised/rebooted and quite often tainted from what you originally remember. And on the subject of Superman's foes, that's were I'm coming from....they may have been great once, but it's been a long time and many of them have been jokes to longtime comic readers for many years now.

Ask yourself this....out of the 5 recent Superman movies (since '78) why has Luthor been in 4 of them? Same old same old....bottom line is the other villains need to be seriously updated to major threats to, well, take them seriously again. Is it any wonder that John Byrne had to tap Darkseid to be a "big bad" for Supes (which others have since followed) because just Luthor all day every day just wasn't going to cut it?

[PNGwynne]

I can see Superman's classic foes being tweaked to be more formidable/relevant. But didn't Toyman recently go "old-school"?

Some of the blame lies in Superman's characterization, not intrinsically his foes.

As for the movies, that's just Hollywood lazy BS. Superman III could have easily featured Brainiac instead of a supercomputer; Superman IV had very obvious Bizarro overtones.

[BlackKnight]

Awww....the comic geek elitists feelings are being hurt AGAIN....
nothing new around here.

All jabbing aside....I can't believe you have to be "protective of"
and "affected BY" this subject matter as to be so bent on nullifying
my opinion-----its not like live or die stuff.

You Don't ...,
It's just difficult to take in a "Debate" from Someone, who really don't seem have the Knowledge to where thier "opinion" can be taken into consideration on the Subject.

[huedell]

Don't worry....you're not hurting my feelings in the least. The "nothing new around here" is your "opinion" quite often intruding on what is a semi-serious discussion (yeah I know...comic books, right ) by folks that actually READ what is being discussed.

Now I'm not saying you have to be a die-hard...that would be "elitist"....and that's not what I'm purposing. But it would be nice if you occassionally brought something to the table that's relevant to the discussion at hand, other than opinions formulated years ago.

"Ocassionally bring to the table"???? Apparently you ARE "hurt" or SOMETHING
of that nature if that's how you feel about my posts...read on and I'll tiredly
remind you that I have bit more to bring to the table than what you purport.
(Why I should DO that I'm not so sure)

Now the topic was "Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?"
The answer can be any number of reasons...or you may disagree and think that Supes has the better Rogues. Which is fine...but back up your opinion with some validity other than "I'm not your typical comicfan". You might as well say you liked your Superman coloring book that featured Luthor, Bizarro, Mxy when you were a kid. Which again is fine, but there's a lot more to Superman and his Rogues than just a first impression.

Suuuuuure. This all has to do with some non-existent Bronze age coloring book you think I had....it was a notable bit more than "that" (1970s
kiddie merch) back then...I read some comics---the one where Supes got bitten by that Kryptonian lizard and went up against Myx comes to mind (for example) and, yes, I like the old SUPER FRIENDS show....but eventually grew out of it.

And this is not meant to nullify yours or anyone else's opinion because they don't read as many books as I do or someone else does. My knowledge is not omnipotent by no means. But I feel I can back up my opinion 100 different ways to Sunday without resorting to the "geek" calling or the "not your typical comicfan" mantra you always bring out.

I use the "geek" word because for lack of using "diehard" all the time...sometimes it comes in handy....and it sure fits....so why not.
I'm a "toy" geek I'd say----but not a "comic geek"....no big deal.

And, the thing is "I" "back up my opinions 50 ways to Sunday....
but to a...um....diehard....like you (or Bat) that doesn't seem to float that
well....and it makes many resort to bringing up the nice things I say
about SUPERMAN III, for whatever "smart" reasons that's for (sarcasm off)....

Ask yourself this....out of the 5 recent Superman movies (since '78) why has Luthor been in 4 of them? Same old same old....bottom line is the other villains need to be seriously updated to major threats to, well, take them seriously again. Is it any wonder that John Byrne had to tap Darkseid to be a "big bad" for Supes (which others have since followed) because just Luthor all day every day just wasn't going to cut it?

That's cool that you as a regular comic reader know that they have to be updated...but the point that Brian brought up is key here. Visiblity.
The right stuff at the right time.

The Salkinds could be more to blame for this than anybody else.
They really dropped the ball at a crucial time----and Bryan Singer, if anything,
was trying to make up for it....which I think he did beautifully,
but then was yanked off the project.....oh well....

So if you'd agree more with that kind of notion
a lot of the percieved value of Batman's gallery goes out the window
and Superman's increases.....and frankly, that's how I feel about it.