Kirby Estate going after the rights to his Marvel creations

[kingdom warrior]

As for Stan creating Spiderman....I don't know about that especially if you ever heard of the silver spider......Scroll down and read the editorial memorandum dated Feb,23 1954 notice the Silver spiders powers.....
The comic book makers - Google Books


Stan Lee always said he was creator or co creator of The Marvel heroes....yet he never created not one character before and maybe two or three lame characters after. Stan was a good script writer filling in words in panels. It was he who created the marvel way of doing stories. Kirby was unbelievably fast at his craft so all he had to do is give Kirby an idea for a story then he'd let Kirby do his thing.....then he'd fill in the words my understanding is that's a script writer. Kirby created memorable characters before and after his run at Marvel........

[samurainoir]

This is a endless can of worms, Kirby created the Fantastic Four, but did he create the Human Torch or was that Carl Burgos? Mr Fantastic, hardly an original concept. Thor based on Mythology.

Re Kirby Spider-Man. I believe Kirby's take on Spider-man was closer to the Fly in look and design and he had some kind of magic ring which transformed him from a Billy Batson like character into Spider-man. The real Spider-man is Ditko all the way.

Clem

It's lucky for Disney-Marvel and Sony that Ditko has no interest in pursuing Spider-man given his personal beliefs. That is not to say that his heirs share the same view when he passes on.

I had completely forgotten about the proto-Spiderman! I'll have to dig out that issue of Pure Images that I have stashed away somewhere. It has the actual unpubished pages.

Even though there are enough differences, this just MIGHT be the smoking gun that the Kirby Estate lawyers need to prove that "Spiderman" was developed as a Creator Owned Property first. It's a stretch, but welcome to the world where the publishers of Superman can sue the publishers of Captain Marvel out of business!

Folks that are interested in the kind of magazines that Two Morrows publishes should pick up back issues of Pure Images. The first couple of really interesting essays tracing the potential early influences and evolving concepts by the creators that helped shape the early Marvel Universe.

[kingdom warrior]

It's lucky for Disney-Marvel and Sony that Ditko has no interest in pursuing Spider-man given his personal beliefs. That is not to say that his heirs share the same view when he passes on.

I had completely forgotten about the proto-Spiderman! I'll have to dig out that issue of Pure Images that I have stashed away somewhere. It has the actual unpubished pages.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/66118780122.1.GIF

Even though there are enough differences, this just MIGHT be the smoking gun that the Kirby Estate lawyers need to prove that "Spiderman" was developed as a Creator Owned Property first. It's a stretch, but welcome to the world where the publishers of Superman can sue the publishers of Captain Marvel out of business!

Folks that are interested in the kind of magazines that Two Morrows publishes should pick up back issues of Pure Images. The first couple of really interesting essays tracing the potential early influences and evolving concepts by the creators that helped shape the early Marvel Universe.
http://image2.milehighcomics.com/ist...18780122.2.GIF

WOW! and i thought i was the only one that had that issue..I was thinking the same thing gotta find my copy of that issue.......

[Earth 2 Chris]

Of all the books and websites I have read on comic history, I've never seen Kirby's version of Spider-Man, which is odd. The version I'm used to hearing either leaves Kirby out all together, or Lee says he tried Jack on it, and he drew it too "super-heroic", i.e., Spidey wasn't spindly and spidery enough. So he went with Ditko.

I'd love to see his take on it. Of course I know he drew the cover to AF#15.

Chris

[samurainoir]

On the topic of Kirby, is anyone else following Warren Ellis' series of stream of conscious hallucinatory essays exploring Jack Kirby and his legacy over at BleedingCool.com?

It's a bit William Buroughs and a bit Hunter S Thompson and totally self indulgent, but it does seem to capture a certain mood around the history of comics and the shortcomings of different creator driven movements in the past.

[samurainoir]

Of all the books and websites I have read on comic history, I've never seen Kirby's version of Spider-Man, which is odd. The version I'm used to hearing either leaves Kirby out all together, or Lee says he tried Jack on it, and he drew it too "super-heroic", i.e., Spidey wasn't spindly and spidery enough. So he went with Ditko.

I'd love to see his take on it. Of course I know he drew the cover to AF#15.

Chris

I just pulled The Comic Book Makers (2003 revised edition) from the bookshelf behind me, I'll have to dig out Pure Images issue from one of the magazine boxes, but it doesn't look like there are any Kirby Proto-Spiderman drawings in Comic Book Makers.

It's even more complicated than we seem to be recollecting in our discussions here.

The pages I was remembering for the Silver Spider were actually drawn by CC Beck himself, which makes the Captain Marvel connection obvious.

Here is me trying to sum up Simon's recollection...
In 1953, Joe Simon came up with the "Spiderman" concept with his brother in law Jack Oleck who scripted many early Kirby/Simon collaborations. It appears he even had a logo. There conception was based on the idea that CC Beck, who was retired from comics and owned a bar, could return to drawing comics. Thus this "Spiderman" developed to play to Beck's strengths.

They ended up deciding to call the character Silver Spider in homage to an earlier creation, Silver Streak. Beck pencilled the first story. Simon took it to Harvey and they rejected it.

In 1959 Archie sees DC's successful revival of Superheroes, so Simon creates The Fly for them. He showed the CC Beck Silver Spider pages to Kirby and the script for "Spiderman" and they turned it into The Fly.

Simon presents the CC Beck pages alongside the published Kirby pages (and points out that they made the villain a Spider instead).

Here's the smoking gun according to Joe Simon, and he claims Kirby was stretching the truth... an interview with Jack Kirby in 1982 conducted by Will Eisner and published in a Warren Spirit magazine. Anyone have that issue handy? I'm sure the Kirby Estate lawyers have it.

in it Kirby says...

"Spiderman was not a product of of Marvel. Spider-man was discussed between Joe and myself. We had a strip called the, or a script called the Silver Spider."

Kirby goes on in this interview to state that he brought the concept to Stan (which is different than Stan's recollections stated ad nauseum over the years) because Simon had "moved on", and they started developing Spider-man.

Whether or not there are any Kirby Proto-Spiderman drawings out there based on Silver Spider doesn't seem likely, but you never know.

So... if Kirby's claim goes through, that opens up the door to Joe Simon and CC Beck's heirs potentially!

[kingdom warrior]

The Silver Spider by Joe Simon

[samurainoir]

Cool! Where did this pic come from? When was it done?

Simon's account doesn't mention Kirby having drawn the Silver Spider, but did mention that Kirby did do six pages under the direction of Marvel after he brought The Silver Spider idea to Marvel. Anyone know if those pages have ever turned up?

Here's Simon's description of Kirby's "Spiderman" under Marvel...

Kirby had him turn into a muscular adult with superhero muscles. It was Captain America with cobwebs.

Jibes with Stan Lee's account of wanting a skinny kid instead and handing it over to Ditko. Kirby was given Ant Man instead.

There is also Simon's account of the copyright battle over Captain America in 1969, when under the old laws you could renew copyright after 28 years. In response to this, Martin Goodman had Jack Kirby sign over all rights in perpetuity to Captain America for a verbally promised sum that never materialized. He also alludes to the details of his Marvel settlement around Captain America, and devotes a small chapter looking back on the Seigel and Shuster situation.

[kingdom warrior]

Cool! Looks like they have a case after all.

Where did this pic come from? When was it done? Simon's account doesn't mention Kirby having drawn the Silver Spider.

I made a mistake and put kirby's name on it on it, sorry mental mistake....it's suppose to be a Joe Simon Sketch but that drawing looks a lot like kirby's art from the 50's

Interview

[samurainoir]

I made a mistake and put kirby's name on it on it, sorry mental mistake....it's suppose to be a Joe Simon Sketch but that drawing looks a lot like kirby's art from the 50's

Interview

running over to Twomorrows to see if they have this issue in stock!

Jack Kirby's admission is printed in Will Eisner's Spirit Magazine. Steve Ditko's "eye-witness" account is printed in Comic Book Artist/Alter Ego, Winter, 1999

[clemso]

It's lucky for Disney-Marvel and Sony that Ditko has no interest in pursuing Spider-man given his personal beliefs. That is not to say that his heirs share the same view when he passes on.

I had completely forgotten about the proto-Spiderman! I'll have to dig out that issue of Pure Images that I have stashed away somewhere. It has the actual unpubished pages.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/66118780122.1.GIF

Even though there are enough differences, this just MIGHT be the smoking gun that the Kirby Estate lawyers need to prove that "Spiderman" was developed as a Creator Owned Property first. It's a stretch, but welcome to the world where the publishers of Superman can sue the publishers of Captain Marvel out of business!

Folks that are interested in the kind of magazines that Two Morrows publishes should pick up back issues of Pure Images. The first couple of really interesting essays tracing the potential early influences and evolving concepts by the creators that helped shape the early Marvel Universe.
http://image2.milehighcomics.com/ist...18780122.2.GIF

I have both those issues as well, great read and well researched.