Silver age Brave and Bold

[saildog]

I completely understand why readers would want continuity, but freedom from continuity could make for better stories. Some people hate it when stories aren't constrained by what already happened, but there would be more casual readers if continuity counted for skwat.

I agree that Crisis was a necessity, but at some point, wouldn't the pendulum swing back the other way? Instead of righting the course with another round of continuity (reboot), wouldn't it make sense to let it come undone and then leave it undone? I mean, it seams to get undone anyway, all the time and for reasons that make sense to the editorial staff alone (at times). Just get out from under the rules for awhile and see where it goes. Just keep making infinite Earths.

[ctc]

>I completely understand why readers would want continuity, but freedom from continuity could make for better stories.

Well.... I dunno. Both have their advantages. I think the big problem is how obsessive a lot of the fans get over the smallest things in their comics. I do the same; but I don't generally let it get under my craw. I recognize that there are different artists, writers, times.... and all these things affect the story. And I recognize that a lot of the legacy characters have been reworked for different audiences over the years. Each of these incarnations is a different experience; but not neccessarily a BETTER one. I enjoy "GoGo Checks" Batman just as much as the "Dark Knight" Batman.

But I think the problem is the fans who say "That's not the REAL Batman!" 'cos there really ISN'T a "real" Batman. The character has been reworked so many times over the last 70 years that every possible permutation has probably shown up somewhere along the line. (Once upon a time "POW! BAM!" Batman was the REAL Batman.) And I'm just using Batman as the example. It applies to durned near every superhero as well. (Original Superman was kind of a ******.)

'Course I think it's okay (and maybe even part of the fun) to discuss and debate these incarnations. But you gotta remember most of it is personal taste; and approach it from that angle. That's why I hate when folks talk about the "right" way to handle a certain character. (At least in a continuing story. Finite stories are a different animal. Sort of.) And when it starts bothering you, it's always possible to stop reading. Nothing wrong with that at all. It makes sense, 'cos you're not gonna be that target audience forever.

>I agree that Crisis was a necessity, but at some point, wouldn't the pendulum swing back the other way?

Well.... I don't know if it was NECCESSARY.... especially considering the pendulum swing you mention is INEVITABLE. (The same circumstances that led to DC devising the "Alternate Earths" schtick still existed AFTER Crisis.) I thought it was a neat idea for a series, and in comparasin to TODAY'S 100 part "mini" series' it's impressive how much stuff they packed into 12 issues.

>Just keep making infinite Earths.

Today you're seeing exactly that, just like the old days. Folks want to take a character in a different direction, or bring back old characters, or do new WW2 stories, or stories in the future, or stories on another planet, or stories with characters that aren't actually part of the continuity.... all the things that led to "Earth X, Y, Z" way back when. The circumstances behind the making of a perpetual, mainstream superhero comic haven't changed in over 50 years; so neither have the stories.

Next stop; "Batman: Space Cop!"

Don C.

[saildog]

Don C.,

There is a lot to be considered on this and I like the way you think. There is a tit for tat on it and I tend to be simplistic because I prefer fun to intricacy, but I do appreciate continuity and involved stories, too.

I think I am severely bummed that comics have evolved into a niche kind of thing and there are many factors that have contributed to that aside from continuity. Continuity may very well be a symptom and not a cause.

I think, in general, comics, much like many other things in our culture (concert tickets, sports tickets, figure exclusives...I have read your thoughts on that....) has become niche and by that definition, out of the reach of those who tend to not put a premium on said niche. Why can't everything be geared toward being appealing and accessible to the average Joe on the street?

I really hate having a Comic Shop Clerk give me a raised eyebrow at my choice in comics. I'd much rather have a Convenience Store clerk snicker at the fact that I bought one than have someone critique the choice.

People can argue that this-that-or-the-other made comics have to be the way they are, but I will always believe that the comics industry could make simple changes that would increase their sales and I can't for the life of me understand why they insist on decreasing their audience with the choices they make. When you paint yourself into a corner like the Comic Industry has, you have to worry about the slightest thing and fan-boys drop off of titles all the time. Can you image a comic starting today making it to 600 issues? How about 50?

Again, I tend to think in simplistic terms, but is it not easier to increase revenues by appealing to more people?

[ctc]

>is it not easier to increase revenues by appealing to more people?

Funny thing; you're right! But you're making the same supposition that a lot of people do when talking about this. You're going with the "comics=Marvel, DC and sometimes Image" attitude. To wit:

>I can't for the life of me understand why they insist on decreasing their audience with the choices they make.

For the big Two-And-A-Half this is essentially true; but there are a LOT of other publishers out there who've successfully expanded their audience. And it's by doing exactly what you've mentioned. (Shonen Jump sells EVERYWHERE! And Tintin's been available at bookstores for longer than I've been alive.) They sort of shot themselves in the foot back in the 80's by catering to the "serious" superhero crowd more and more. Intellectual inbreeding led to books that appealed to fewer and fewer people. (Once the speculators got fed up, look how quickly comics tanked in the 90's.) And constant pandering calcified the attitudes of those diminishing readers, so fixing the problem is difficult. (How many readers are gonna LOSE it when "Batman: Space Cop" comes out?)

Don C.

[saildog]

>is it not easier to increase revenues by appealing to more people?

Funny thing; you're right! But you're making the same supposition that a lot of people do when talking about this. You're going with the "comics=Marvel, DC and sometimes Image" attitude. To wit:

>I can't for the life of me understand why they insist on decreasing their audience with the choices they make.

For the big Two-And-A-Half this is essentially true; but there are a LOT of other publishers out there who've successfully expanded their audience. And it's by doing exactly what you've mentioned. (Shonen Jump sells EVERYWHERE! And Tintin's been available at bookstores for longer than I've been alive.) They sort of shot themselves in the foot back in the 80's by catering to the "serious" superhero crowd more and more. Intellectual inbreeding led to books that appealed to fewer and fewer people. (Once the speculators got fed up, look how quickly comics tanked in the 90's.) And constant pandering calcified the attitudes of those diminishing readers, so fixing the problem is difficult. (How many readers are gonna LOSE it when "Batman: Space Cop" comes out?)

Don C.

Actually, I completely agree with you. I know I am going on the simplistic side, but there is no way I would want the Independents to go out and be unavailable to me, AND there is no way I want to see Batman:Space Cop.

Call it old age, but I have become more Eastern in my Philosophy so I tend to not see things as either/or and I feel the Comics Industry is stuck in "Well, you could have this, but you would miss out on this and get THAT!".

I'm not saying I have an answer, but why do we have to settle and make everyone unhappy? It takes imaginative people to produce what they produce. Why do they have such a hard time extending that imagination to producing something that might just appeal to all (said in all humility, because I couldn't....but someone can!). We put a man on the Moon, fer Pete's sake!

[CaptainTrenchcoat]

I actually would prefer to throw out continuity. Without continuity, stories could be told in any incarnation. Wasn't that one of the reasons Batman Legends of the Dark Knight was so successful? What if Superman or JLA had a title like that? If I was an editor at DC and someome like Jim Lee or Mark Waid came to me with a cool JLA story that didn't take place with the current lineup, I'd let him. When JLA and JSA Classified came out I had such high hopes thinking that they would tell stories from any of the previous incarnations. But nope. All they were were JLA B and JSA B stories.

I say get rid of it.

[ctc]

>Without continuity, stories could be told in any incarnation.

You're always gonna have SOME kind of continuity. The fact that Batman is Bruce Wayne (or WHOEVER, these days) every issue is continuity. But there's nothing wrong with stepping out of that. "Elseworlds" served that purpose: stories with the characters, as concepts in different incarnations in different settings. Works perfectly well. Even the old alternate Earths thing served this puropse. They just brought it into the OVERALL continuity by saying there's a whole megaverse of realities out there. Doesn't mean they HAVE to interact, or HAVE to "really" exist at all within the overall relaity of the DC universe. And that's all fine; and perfectly legit from a storytelling perspective.

The idea of tying it all together used to be a wacky novelty. Started in Flash 123. (I looked it up.) Someone wanted to explain why the Flash looked different now, and had a different name, and wasn't in WW2. Prior to that NOBODY NOTICED! It wasn't a big deal, they changed the character. Happened all the time. Strictly marketing. This story was a cute way of explaining it in story. But it caught on, and they did it with other characters, and eventually they tied the whole universe together. (Although I don't know if Scooter has been acknowledged as a part of the DC universe. Say; think we're gonna see a Black Lantern Super-Hip?)

And then, years later it became a point of obsession for the fans. Everything HAD to fit in somewhere. Otherwise it wasn't "real."

And then, years after that the fans got sick of it and everybody wanted more disconnected, one-off adventures. And it'll happen. The seeds are already sewn; what with online discontent from the readers and the tv shows ALL using the older, disconnected and episodic style.

And when it DOES happen, years leter the fans will complain about the lack of impact and eevelopment in their stories; and all of a sudden continuity and progression, and canon will be the thing again....

>All they were were JLA B and JSA B stories.

That's an editorial thing. Doesn't have to be that way at all, and won't be forever. The amount that folks want it all to mesh together varies too. (Pre-80's nobody cared if the "What If?" stories were alternate worlds, or part of the overall Marvel universe, or just stuff the Beyonder made up to mess with us.) It's ALL cyclic. That's why it doesn't pay to get too hung up on it, 'cos it's gonna EVENTUALLY change. Not 'cos of any in continuity issues, but because of the REAL real world reality of publishing a book with no end.

>It takes imaginative people to produce what they produce. Why do they have such a hard time extending that imagination to producing something that might just appeal to all

You're mixing two different groups in there: the folks actually putting the books together and the folks running the company. (And the problem with a giant conglomerate is that the distance between these two groups can be pretty far....) You can come up with the greatest Batman story EVER; but if the execs have a reprot saying ninjas are cool, then guess who's gonns be hanging out with ninjas.

'Course, now I'm wondering.... what DID happen to Super-Hip?

Don C.

[saildog]

>It takes imaginative people to produce what they produce. Why do they have such a hard time extending that imagination to producing something that might just appeal to all

You're mixing two different groups in there: the folks actually putting the books together and the folks running the company. (And the problem with a giant conglomerate is that the distance between these two groups can be pretty far....) You can come up with the greatest Batman story EVER; but if the execs have a reprot saying ninjas are cool, then guess who's gonns be hanging out with ninjas.

'Course, now I'm wondering.... what DID happen to Super-Hip?

Don C.

Nope...not mixing them up, just wondering why they have to be in conflict. Or why one has to trump the other. (You recognize the distance, I just wonder why it has to be. It's almost built into the system and the system is crap because of it.)

Look at Stan Lee...he was languishing until Martin Goodman told him and Kirby to just go ahead and do what you want. (They have to know this story.....I do!)

At least, anecdotally, we might surmise that when the editorial people get out of the way (in today's terms that would be Didio) good things can happen.

[The Toyroom]

(Although I don't know if Scooter has been acknowledged as a part of the DC universe. )

Scooter, Binky, Sugar and Spike....none of these characters ever made it into DC's Who's Who handbook series

[johnnystorm]

Black Lantern Super-Hip.

BEST. CONCEPT. EVER.

[ctc]

>Or why one has to trump the other. (You recognize the distance, I just wonder why it has to be. It's almost built into the system and the system is crap because of it.)

I think the FANS factor into that too. People seem to always want a "winner;" even in circumstances where there doesn't have to be one. People want one idea that overrides all similar ones, and they want to be on the winning team. So when something hits, everything becomes that something because people go for it en-masse. They lose interest in anything else, and the companies give 'em what they want. It's reciprocal.

>we might surmise that when the editorial people get out of the way (in today's terms that would be Didio) good things can happen.

I think it's a measure of the quality of the editorial staff more than the position. A good editor can work wonders. Remeber that the "good" comics were produced under just as much editorial scrutiny as the "bad" current ones.

>Scooter, Binky, Sugar and Spike....none of these characters ever made it into DC's Who's Who handbook series

That's true; but Brother Power did. So is HE part of the overall continuity? And who would win, Brother Power or Batman....?

Don C.

[The Toyroom]

>Scooter, Binky, Sugar and Spike....none of these characters ever made it into DC's Who's Who handbook series

That's true; but Brother Power did. So is HE part of the overall continuity? And who would win, Brother Power or Batman....?

That's because Brother Power wasn't a humor book, ala Binky and the others.
For some reason, none of the humor characters got Who's Who pages, save for The Inferior 5
and Angel and the Ape, if I recall, but maybe that's because they had more of a super-hero
element to them than Binky did.

Brother Power turned up in a Swamp Thing Annual (#5) in a story by Neil Gaiman so yeah he's in continuity.

Interestingly, Joe Simon's other weird DC creation, Prez, didn't get a Who's Who page at the time but has since
popped up in continuity as well.

[ctc]

>That's because Brother Power wasn't a humor book,

At least not INTENTIONALLY! *rimshot* Thank you! I'm here all week and remember to tip your waitress....

>none of the humor characters got Who's Who pages, save for The Inferior 5
and Angel and the Ape, if I recall, but maybe that's because they had more of a super-hero element to them than Binky did.

Yeah, I can see the super-hero thing too. (But that doesn't explain notable absence of Super-Hip.) They were featured in Crisis; and Who's Who was edited with Crisis in mind as I recall. I think a lot of THAT sort of thing also comes down to the whims of the staff: bringing back characters who struck a cord with them over bringing back characters that really fit in anywhere.

Plus, Angel and the Ape and the Inferior Five were made continuity in the 80's when Phil Foglio did the miniseries. (Sam is Grodd's nephew.) And now that I think about it, Sugar and Spike made an appearance in the first or second Ambush Bug series.... so I guess that makes THEM official too. And Foglio made Stanley and his Monster part of the DC continuity when he did THEIR miniseries....

....which is why I say this sort of debate is fun, but you shouldn't get wrapped around the axle about it. And why I think Phil Foglio is one of the most brilliant and underrated cartoonists of all time. (The "Stanley and his Monster" miniseries successsfully lampooned the DC/Vertigo concept of hell, while staying in continuity.)

Don C.

[ramsey37]

'Course, now I'm wondering.... what DID happen to Super-Hip?

Don C.

I hate to admit that I'd never even *heard* of Super-Hip prior to this post. I had to Google him to find out who/what he was
George
"Super Unhip"

[The Toyroom]

If I remember correctly, Sugar and Spike had a cameo in Crisis on Infinite Earths. As for characters appearing in Ambush Bug: Considering how often he breaks the 4th Wall, I'd be suspicious about anything being in continuity. After all, Ambush Bug has seen Darkseid working at McDonald's.

Stanley and his Monster have appeared in modern continuity during the Kevin Smith run on Green Arrow. Not sure if it has ties to Foglio's work or if it undoes it because I never read the Foglio mini.

The Inferior 5 have popped up in Animal Man, but again this is suspect, as Animal Man also broke the 4th Wall and this arc was all about characters who had been forgotten in limbo. But the I5 did appear in the Oz-Wonderland Wars (a Captain Carrot/Zoo Crew mini-series) and I think they were retroactively placed on Earth-12 after the 1st Crisis (even though by that point Crisis wiped out the infinite earth mindset).

Super Hip probably didn't appear in Who's Who because he was a supporting character and the main characters themselves didn't appear at the time. I think it was because of space considerations and the fact that DC editorial at the time (Wolfman/Wein/Giordano/Kahn) probably never thought these characters would be used again.

Another one is Aquaman's old foe Quisp (kinda like a Bat-Mite or Mxyztplk or even Mopee!)...didn't rate an entry in Who's Who but was revived years later (albeit as a "genie" tied to the Thunderbolt dimension) as a foe for Grant Morrison's JLA.