New Teen Titans appreciation thread

[samurainoir]

This one was my first issue and it was quite mindblowing. Wolfman and Perez had that rare collaborative energy where they just fed off each other in such a positive way creatively. It's particularly telling when they both went off on their own Post-Crisis. As much as Jose Garcia Lopez was a great replacement as an artist, the "spark" in the characters seemed to fade over time, particularly as other artists came on board. Perez's Wonder Woman was fantastic visually and filled with great ideas, but I don't think it was ever as sharp as the writing on NTT.

Regarding Raven's gradual transformation, Perez has admitted that it was a direct result of him improving dramatically over time as an artist... at first he simply drew generic women, but as he got to know the characters, they all became very distinct in terms of their features. Once they noticed how much Raven had changed with Perez's evolving art, they incorporated it into the storyline.

The other thing that fascinates me is the fact that ONLY Perez seemed to have the ability to draw such expressiveness in a character that made Jericho work as a non-speaking character. Jericho really fell flat after the departure of Perez.

Anyone else follow Pacesetter? The Perez fanzine?

I'm hoping they finally get Games, the "lost" NTT Graphic Novel into the pipeline now that Perez is done Crisis Legion.

[The Toyroom]

^ That's one of my favorite all-time issues of The New Teen Titans.

[samurainoir]

^ That's one of my favorite all-time issues of The New Teen Titans.

Besides showing us what a badass Terminator was (I could never get used to refering to him as "Deathstroke"), it really was a good character defining moment for Changeling and foreshadowed the Doom Patrol arc quite well.

In terms of character bits, I really liked the evolving relationship between Gar and Vic... it really makes sense that Vic would remind him of his old buddy Robotman!

Beyond his initial flirtation with Raven, I think it was Kid Flash that Wolfman and Perez really had the most difficulty getting a handle on... in some ways he was an "everyman" on the team (note Day in the Life), but it didn't ever feel like he had satisfying character arcs in the same way all the other characters did.

Gar had his Doom Patrol issues and Terra.
Vic and his constant struggle with his "disability" and humanity.
both Raven and Starfire had distinct "immigrant" experiences and family issues to contend with (in the scifi and horror genres respectively)
Robin and Wondergirl were the heart and soul of the team and even they evolved... particularly after "Who is Donna Troy?", which kind of brought them both into adulthood. Dick as Nightwing and Donna finding love and eventually marriage. Despite the fact that the former was a great springboard, whereas I agree that the latter was a bit of a deadend. In fact it pretty much was the jumping off point for Perez (and me as a newsstand reader).

Wally's struggle with his lost powers was interesting to an extent and it was a great launching point once he took the Flash mantle, but he never was as distinct for me as all the other character journeys that took place in this title.

[samurainoir]

This was my second issue of NTT.


Brother Blood's costume design still works for me. Suitably creepy.


If only they could have left it at this issue eh?

[Riffster]

As much as i like the idea of Dick bieng with Babs, i always thought that him and Donna woulda been a nice couple. I ddin't buy Her and Roy being together

[samurainoir]

As much as i like the idea of Dick bieng with Babs, i always thought that him and Donna woulda been a nice couple. I ddin't buy Her and Roy being together

I think Dick and Donna resolved their relationship in Who is Donna Troy. I liked the idea that there could be such a deep platonic love between them.

Are you talking about their latest relationship in the Devon Grayson written Titans title? Donna and Roy was a throwback to their teen flirtations in the original Teen Titans. (they actually dated back in the day). It fits if you read it as her escaping to a simpler time after the death of her husband and kid. Roy of course is an established "Ladies Man", who would consider himself lucky. I don't think we were supposed to "buy" them being together... like you would cringe when find out two of your friends hook up for the wrong reasons on the rebound/drunk/lonely continuum.

I didn't think Dick and Barbara would work out as well as it did. Was that Chuck Dixon's contribution?

It was the Beast Boy/Raven pairing One Year Later/52 that didn't quite work for me.

[david_b]

Brother Blood was a great villain. He actually kind of creeped me out as a kid. Although in later years, Perez lamented making him a bit too obviously villainous. I do think Wolfman dragged that final arc out a bit too long. The one where Raven and Nightwing are both brainwashed by Blood, and the NTT finally got back together after like 20 issues or something.

One thing Wolfman was great at in NTT for sure was making the villains EVIL. They were bad and meant business. No Ding-Dong Daddys to be found. The stakes were incredibly high in that series. I think that's one reason why the quiet stories ("A Day in the Life", "Who Is Donna Troy?") worked so well. We needed a breather from the life-or-death stuff!

Chris

Totally Agreed.. At the time in college (mid-80s), I followed all the Perez issues, even spending a whopping $15 for Issue 1 (a lot for me at the time..). My interest held until the Donna Troy got married. I collected for a while after that with the deluxe format, but the art just wasn't there, and the storyline was pretty dire and depressing by then..

I was also getting to miss not having the original Robin, Kid Flash and the occasional Speedy around too much by then.

And yes, the whole Brother Blood summer just went WAY too long. There was an editorial note in one of the latter issues that apologized for the extended story arc, since there was some problems forming the new stories, but I had pretty much given up by that point.

Best part was..: At the same time, a local comic shop had all the ORIGINAL Titan comics from the 60s from some estate sale, all in NM condition. I was able to buy most of the truely awesome Nick Cardy covers (except for the first 10..) for only $3 a piece..!!!!

Best deal I ever had..!

david_b

[The Toyroom]

If only they could have left it at this issue eh?

Issue #38? Yeah but then the awesome Judas Contract would have never taken place...that came after.

[samurainoir]

Issue #38? Yeah but then the awesome Judas Contract would have never taken place...that came after.

Sorry, I meant the "Who is Donna Troy" part... Donna is Wonder Woman's adopted sister. It's astoundingly ironic that it was Wolfman and Perez themselves that undid and retconned their own masterpiece like that.

At least Claremont and Byrne can say that everything that happened with Dark Pheonix at the time and since was editorial mandate, happy accidents, and their own creative conflicts at work. (funny too that it was Byrne that "restored" Donna).


As nice as they Troia costume design was, the "Who is Wonder Girl" five issue followup really didn't do justice to anyone, including the reuniting Perez and Wolfman creative team.

[The Toyroom]

Sorry, I meant the "Who is Donna Troy" part... Donna is Wonder Woman's adopted sister. It's astoundingly ironic that it was Wolfman and Perez themselves that undid and retconned their own masterpiece like that.

As nice as they Troia costume design was, the "Who is Wonder Girl" five issue followup really didn't do justice to anyone, including the reuniting Perez and Wolfman creative team.

Yeah but they sorta had no choice, as Wonder Girl needed to be rebooted at the time because of the new editorial direction of Wonder Woman if I recall. Sorta like Superboy being wiped out and taken away from the Legion due to Byrne's new version of Superman.

Byrne was eventually able to restore Donna's Amazonian roots but I think that's because enough time had passed that DC editorial was willing to admit their mistakes. Similar to a lot of pre-Crisis, pre-Byrne Superman mythos reappearing even though Byrne had eliminated certain elements at the time in order to "strengthen" Superman as the Last Son of Krypton. But eventually, we got back Supergirl (several!), Krypto, Phantom Zone Villains (again several sets), colored Kryptonite, Kandor, etc.

[samurainoir]

Yeah but they sorta had no choice, as Wonder Girl needed to be rebooted at the time because of the new editorial direction of Wonder Woman if I recall. Sorta like Superboy being wiped out and taken away from the Legion due to Byrne's new version of Superman.

I think the difference in those scenarios is that Byrne's creative choices wiped out other people's work on the then current Legion title. Perez and Wolfman did this to themselves!

Has it been documented somewhere that it was editorial edict? The accounts I've read from Wolfman and Perez all seem to take creative responsibility for what happened to Donna.

After all, it was Perez himself that took the reigns of Wonder Woman post-crisis, and Perez and Wolfman were the creative force behind the planned DCU reboot that occured in Crisis. Which didn't completely reboot as Wolfman had planned because he didn't get total buy-in with other DCU writers/editorial. And then they were the ones who tried to "fix" it with "Who is Wonder Girl".

Although I guess it might also have been them leading by example. Since Crisis messed up so many other books by other folks, Wonder Girl may have been their sacrificial lamb. I mean Roy Thomas' entire career at that point hinged on Earth 2 continuity right? Infinity Inc was never quite the same after Crisis.

Come to think of it, the only Crisis-cleanup/tie in that I can think of that actually occurred quite eloquently and cleanly was Swamp Thing. But then again, Moore had the entire Supernatural realm to play with all by his lonesome.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Greg Potter started out as the writer of the post-Crisis Wonder Woman, and had already plotted out WW's coming to Man's World in the present. Perez came aboard as co-writer at first and then took over. He has said he didn't give Donna much thought at the time, since DC was desperate to have WW be a hot title, so he focused his energies on that. Really nothing in "Who is Donna Troy?" is changed other than it was Titan of Myth who saved Donna, not WW. I always had trouble seeing WW. rescue an infant Donna anyway. It would have meant the Earth 1 WW was active before the Earth 1 Superman, and that just seemed wrong.

Chris

[The Toyroom]

I think the difference in those scenarios is that Byrne's creative choices wiped out other people's work on the then current Legion title. Perez and Wolfman did this to themselves!

Has it been documented somewhere that it was editorial edict? The accounts I've read from Wolfman and Perez all seem to take creative responsibility for what happened to Donna.

After all, it was Perez himself that took the reigns of Wonder Woman post-crisis, and Perez and Wolfman were the creative force behind the planned DCU reboot that occured in Crisis. Which didn't completely reboot as Wolfman had planned because he didn't get total buy-in with other DCU writers/editorial. And then they were the ones who tried to "fix" it with "Who is Wonder Girl".

Although I guess it might also have been them leading by example. Since Crisis messed up so many other books by other folks, Wonder Girl may have been their sacrificial lamb. I mean Roy Thomas' entire career at that point hinged on Earth 2 continuity right? Infinity Inc was never quite the same after Crisis.

Come to think of it, the only Crisis-cleanup/tie in that I can think of that actually occurred quite eloquently and cleanly was Swamp Thing. But then again, Moore had the entire Supernatural realm to play with all by his lonesome.

Part of the problem with Wonder Girl after Crisis was the fact that she had obviously been around for a while prior to Crisis and yet her mentor Wonder Woman was just entering Man's World AFTER Crisis. She probably was a sacrificial lamb of sorts...same thing happened to her Earth-2 counterpart Fury...her mother (the Earth-2 Wondy) had to be ret-conned as the Golden Age Fury.

I don't think it was intentional on the part of Wolfman and Perez with WG though. They may take responsibility and Perez was part of the relaunch of WW but remember Greg Potter was originally the plotter/scripter on the first few issues of WW. How much of an influence did he or maybe Jenette Khan have as far as deciding Wonder Woman would be entering the DCU in the present time with a fresh slate? I think Wolfman and Perez just had to clean-up the mess as best they could.

Wonder Woman also messed up the JLA continuity and was replaced by Black Canary...so I'm thinking it had more to do with "someone" deciding to reboot WW and start from scratch as far as her timeline and everyone else would have to figure it out later on. WG and Black Canary were after-thoughts I think.

And yeah, Roy Thomas got the shaft from DC at the time....All-Star Squadron got messed up as did Infinity, Inc. I think they tried to appease him with Young All-Stars but that never really took off.

The whole irony is Wonder Woman's history is now once again in-line with what it originally was prior to Crisis (for the most part) and she's a founding member of the JLA.

[The Toyroom]

Greg Potter started out as the writer of the post-Crisis Wonder Woman, and had already plotted out WW's coming to Man's World in the present.

Ya beat me too it as I was typing

[samurainoir]

Really nothing in "Who is Donna Troy?" is changed other than it was Titan of Myth who saved Donna, not WW. I always had trouble seeing WW. rescue an infant Donna anyway. It would have meant the Earth 1 WW was active before the Earth 1 Superman, and that just seemed wrong.

Chris

I was never a fan of the Titans of Myth, and always thought the Amazonian culture was intrinsic to Donna's personality (although I guess I also have a soft spot for Debra Winger's version). The story itself is still there, but I think the aftermath of it really did the character an injustice.

I do agree that the Donna continuity was probably the furthest from their minds when they did it, but did Wolfman and Perez send Wonder Woman into "uncreation" in Crisis a concession to Greg Potter's eventual contribution? Was Potter even asigned the title when the Wonder Woman reboot decision went down? I seem to recall they needed to buy some time with a Trina Robbins mini between the two series. Who is Greg Potter anyways?

So where did the character of Donna take a wrong turn if not for Crisis and the Wonder Woman reboot (creatively driven by Wolfman and Perez?). I really truly believe that she'd be up there with Nightwing, Oracle, and Wally as a character if she had been allowed to evolve "normally" away from all the continuity hiccups and reboots.

I guess the main problem with the age difference starts from the very beginning which had "Wonder Girl" included in the Teen Titans as a mistake. Wonder Girl was originally like Superboy right? The adventures of Wonder Woman as a girl?

Byrne's "fix" seems the best fix although the extra layer of Dark Angel is in retrospect unnecessary.

I'm thinking the best thing they can do is simply have Hippolyta replace Diana in Who is Donna Troy. She's adventuring in Man's World, saves a girl from a fire and raises her alongside Diana as her little sister.

What was the Debra Winger origin on the TV show?