Wow, Marina Sirtis was almost a Latina in TNG

[Hector]

From Wikipedia:

"Gene Roddenberry was inspired to ask the exotic-looking Sirtis to audition for a role after seeing the film Aliens with Bob Justman, which featured the prominent Latina character 'Vasquez', played by Jenette Goldstein. Sirtis and Denise Crosby initially tried out for the other's eventual role on The Next Generation. Sirtis' character was going to be named Lt. Macha Hernandez, the Security Chief. Gene Roddenberry decided to switch them, and Macha Hernandez became Natasha Yar. Sirtis recalls that on the day she received a call offering her the role of Deanna Troi, she was actually packing to return to England, because her six-month visa had ended."

Can you imagine?

Lt. Macha Hernandez???

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/df/DeannaTroi.jpg/250px-DeannaTroi.jpg

As a Latino, that would've been soooooooooo cool by me, lol.

http://www.sevenoaksart.co.uk/teddies/mexicoted.gif

Arriba, baby!!!


:biggrin:

[K]

Wow! Interesting!

I've heard Marina in interview saying that she's been up for roles of various ethnicities: Latina, Italian, etc. and remember...she played a Middle Eastern woman in "Crash".

Interesting that she and Denise Crosby were originally up for each other's roles. It's hard to imagine now!

[Hector]

Yes, always interesting to find out about what happens behind the scenes.

Marina Sirtis owes her exotic looks to her being of Greek ancestry. although she's a Brit by birth.

What do you think about Denise Crosby quitting about the first season?

I saw her in person back in 1988 in LA, and she was stunned at the positive reception she received from the fans, she was so gracious, but you could see in it in her eyes, she had this look of "What did I do, why did I quit this awesome show???"

As you probably know, she did come back for some recurring roles, especially as Romulan Commander Sela...and producing the documentary, Trekkies.

[Mikey]

If i'm remembering correctly, Marina played a Hispanic in Death Wish-3.
They gave her a dubbed voice that was really horrible.

[johnmiic]

Well, there may be more to that story behind the scenes. The fact that Denise Crosby left and for season 2, Gates McFadden was off the show, could've been more internal politics. Gates got to return to her role by season 3 tho I think people said Rodenberry would not let her come back. Denise did come back for a guest starring role as Tasha in Yesterday's Enterprise and as the 1/2 Romulan daughter of Yar, Sela.

ST-TNG is notorious in american television history for having a high number of writers quit and move on because allegedly, lot of shady things were going on behind the scenes with Rodenberry and a lawyer he employed named Maltzish,(?).

Marina's and Denise's parts may have been switched to try & prevent David Gerrold from winning a lawsuit where he charged that he wrote the writers bible for ST-TNG and should be billed as creator or co-creator of the show. Gerrold has never said this himself as the case was settled out of court and a gag order was imposed on all parties. ( A gag order is an agreement that no matter what, if everyone settles without a trial they will never, never, ever tell anyone whay they sued in the first place).

This was confirmed, in part, by Haralan Ellison at a Creation con I attended in NYC years ago where he said, paraphrasing, that he warned David not to get involved in ST-TNG. He said he repeatedly said that Rodenberry and his people were un-trustworthy but he wrote the writers bible and they screwed him over. I also read something to this effect in the un-authorized Gene Rodenberry Bio. which is not a bad read. All the official bio's make Rodenberry out to be a saint but this one does outline a lot of the bad things he did to people who worked for him.

I think if you read Star Trek, Star Trek: "Where No One Has Gone Before" : A History in Pictures by J.M. Dillard, there is a chapter which addresses this directly stating David Gerrold could not be billed the creator of the new show because the writers bible was put together by many people, tho I don't recall her stating who these other people were and still Rodenberry is the only person listed in every episode's credits. Kind'a strange that a gag order was imposed and yet this author seems to know a lot about a lawsuit that didn't involver her. So somebody loyal to Rodenberry supplied the author with the details.

[ABMAC]

Roddenberry was a first class Richard head. He wrote some horrible lyrics to the original Star Trek theme just to screw Alexander Courage out of half of his royalties.

[K]

I do recall an old interview in which Patrick Stewart even said that the female characters were not given much to do and he admired them for doing a lot with sometimes tiny parts. I think that improved as the series went on; they'd give Crusher an ep, Troi an ep, etc. Perhaps Denise wouldn't couldn't wait around for more screen time? I'm not sure. I was never really sure why/how her departure went.

Also, there are a few good Marina interviews on YouTube. There are also some with Denise. I did NOT know she's Bing's granddaughter! Interesting.

She's also quite a cook. She was on an episode of a cooking show (sorry! Can't recall the name!) and she cooked a Greek dish for her segment.

[toys2cool]

Can you imagine?

Lt. Macha Hernandez???

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/df/DeannaTroi.jpg/250px-DeannaTroi.jpg

As a Latino, that would've been soooooooooo cool by me, lol.

http://www.sevenoaksart.co.uk/teddies/mexicoted.gif

Arriba, baby!!!


:biggrin:

i agree,that would've been pretty darn cool :grin:

[ABMAC]

It's the modern equivalent of blackface. Having Marina Sirtis play a Latina means one less job for a true Latina.

[huedell]

It's the modern equivalent of blackface. Having Marina Sirtis play a Latina means one less job for a true Latina.

For some reason, I'm thinking making that comparison is QUITE a stretch Ant :)

Seriously though---if its sincerely "job security" for those of certain descent
you're thinking about----that's like---affirmative action---and I certainly
don't think that's needed in casting roles

"Yeah she's great in the role but she's not a TRUE whatever" doesn't
seem to be hold much water

[HardyGirl]

I remember at a convention, Marina talked about having to invent an "accent" for her Betazoid heritage, b/c she was told by producers there was already "one Brit on the Bridge", (who was supposed to be French, go figure.) When we met Mrs. Troi, (a wonderful role by Majel Barret-Roddenberry), she said she tried to break Deanna of her accent she got from her father. When we see her father in a "dream sequence" in the last season, he sounded as Americana as apple pie. Marina got a kick outta that.:grin:

[mego73]

Well, there may be more to that story behind the scenes. The fact that Denise Crosby left and for season 2, Gates McFadden was off the show, could've been more internal politics. Gates got to return to her role by season 3 tho I think people said Rodenberry would not let her come back. Denise did come back for a guest starring role as Tasha in Yesterday's Enterprise and as the 1/2 Romulan daughter of Yar, Sela.

ST-TNG is notorious in american television history for having a high number of writers quit and move on because allegedly, lot of shady things were going on behind the scenes with Rodenberry and a lawyer he employed named Maltzish,(?).

Marina's and Denise's parts may have been switched to try & prevent David Gerrold from winning a lawsuit where he charged that he wrote the writers bible for ST-TNG and should be billed as creator or co-creator of the show. Gerrold has never said this himself as the case was settled out of court and a gag order was imposed on all parties. ( A gag order is an agreement that no matter what, if everyone settles without a trial they will never, never, ever tell anyone whay they sued in the first place).

This was confirmed, in part, by Haralan Ellison at a Creation con I attended in NYC years ago where he said, paraphrasing, that he warned David not to get involved in ST-TNG. He said he repeatedly said that Rodenberry and his people were un-trustworthy but he wrote the writers bible and they screwed him over. I also read something to this effect in the un-authorized Gene Rodenberry Bio. which is not a bad read. All the official bio's make Rodenberry out to be a saint but this one does outline a lot of the bad things he did to people who worked for him.

I think if you read Star Trek, Star Trek: "Where No One Has Gone Before" : A History in Pictures by J.M. Dillard, there is a chapter which addresses this directly stating David Gerrold could not be billed the creator of the new show because the writers bible was put together by many people, tho I don't recall her stating who these other people were and still Rodenberry is the only person listed in every episode's credits. Kind'a strange that a gag order was imposed and yet this author seems to know a lot about a lawsuit that didn't involver her. So somebody loyal to Rodenberry supplied the author with the details.

Yup, I have learned that the great bird of the galaxy did fly a little crooked sometimes.

[danadoll]

For some reason, I'm thinking making that comparison is QUITE a stretch Ant :)

Seriously though---if its sincerely "job security" for those of certain descent
you're thinking about----that's like---affirmative action---and I certainly
don't think that's needed in casting roles

"Yeah she's great in the role but she's not a TRUE whatever" doesn't
seem to be hold much water

I have to agree with Anthony...I'd prefer to see somebody of the character's ethnicity get the role.

Huedell...Would you feel the same if any old actor played the Falcon (John Leguizamo?), Luke Cage (Jackie Chan with a tan?), the Mandarin (Steven Sagal?) or Sunfire (Tom Cruise with make up to make him look Japanese?)...If no actors of the same ethnicity of said characters were thought of as being suitable by the casting crew? Hollywood has made some terrible choices in casting over many, many years and they continue to miscast ethnic roles....I think it's a huge insult to actors of the characters' ethnicities to not get the roles...Losing out to more popular actors (regardless of ethnicity).

Dana

P.S. I hope my examples don't offend anybody, They're just meant to illustrate the point of Hollywood's awful casting choices.

[samurainoir]

It's the modern equivalent of blackface. Having Marina Sirtis play a Latina means one less job for a true Latina.

They would never get away with it these days now that there is a heightened sense of cultural sensitivity.

Keep in mind in the eighties Vasquez herself (from Aliens) was not actually latina! I was astounded when I first saw the actress out of "blackface" in Near Dark and even her subsequent appearances in Terminator and Titanic it was hard to believe it was the same person from Aliens. On the other hand, it was a very strong and memorable performance.

Nice to live in times where Jennifer Lopez, Penelope Cruz and Salma Hayek can make their marks in Hollywood.


I have to agree with Anthony...I'd prefer to see somebody of the character's ethnicity get the role.

Huedell...Would you feel the same if any old actor played the Falcon (John Leguizamo?), Luke Cage (Jackie Chan with a I tan?), the Mandarin (Steven Sagal?) or Sunfire (Tom Cruise with make up to make him look Japanese?)...If no actors of the same ethnicity of said characters were thought of as being suitable by the casting crew? Hollywood has made some terrible choices in casting over many, many years and they continue to miscast ethnic roles....I think it's a huge insult to actors of the characters' ethnicities to not get the roles...Losing out to more popular actors (regardless of ethnicity).

Dana

P.S. I hope my examples don't offend anybody, They're just meant to illustrate the point of Hollywood's awful casting choices.

Ideally "Blackface" should definitely be a thing of the past, although Spike Lee used it effectively in Bamboozled.

The other thing is that the issue is not necessarily as "black and white" as it might seem at first glance. In fact it can get increasingly complex once you start breaking it down past Asian/Caucasian/Black/Latino.

I'm sure we all agree these days that David Carradine potraying an asian person wouldn't cut it. Neither would Mickey Rooney or Joel Grey. (I'm unsure about Yul Brynner since he claims Mongolian heritage).

On the other hand, how specific do we get with ethnicity and culture when it comes to the land of make-believe that is Hollywood? One thing that has always bothered me is Hollywood misidentifying Japanese and Chinese and interchanging the usage of the language when it is potrayed. Remember the "Japanese" Race Car driver Jackie Chan played in Cannonball Run? The one who actually spoke Cantonese?

I believe Disney had a step in the right direction when they opted for a predominantly Asian voice-cast for the Asian characters in Mulan, but half of that cast (consisting of the most recognized asian actors in hollywood) were in fact Japanese, not chinese. I also cannot deny that Miguel Ferrer and Harvey Fierstein did a great job with their roles even though they are not asian. At the end of the day however, does it really matter given the fact that it is a vocal performance in the English language?

Not that Siam exists anymore, but we have a character that should be what we describe today as Thai, potrayed by chinese actor Chow Yun Fat in Anna and The King. This was prior to Tony Jaa, so was there even a Thai actor known to a North American audience? (not that Jaa could even pull off that performance).

We've also have mostly chinese actresses playing japanese in Memoirs of a Geisha. Does that matter given that the films are English language and the actors can pull off a convincing performance physically? Are there Japanese actresses out there that are better North American Box Office draws than Ziyi Zhang and Michelle Yeoh off of Croaching Tiger, Hidden Dragon?

I know Koreans think it's hilarious that the Jin on LOST doesn't actually speak "proper" Korean (he's a American of Korean descent who's first language is English, and I"m told that is what it sounds like). I'm pretty sure Ando on Heroes is Korean and pulls off his performance phonetically (or is he half Korean/Japanese? you see where things get tricky?).


The other "Gray" area for me is that in our increasingly multicultural society (at least where I live in Canada), there is also increasingly a culture of mixed heritage personages. So that even classifying someone as Asian/Caucasian/Black/Latino becomes a bit difficult. Would it have made a difference for example if Maria Sirtis were one quarter latina?


If so, then we have ourselves an Asian Superman in Dean Cain!

Another thing for us to ponder:

Should Hetero Actors potray Gay Characters? Does that take away opportunities for Gay Actors?

There is certainly a long tradition of Gay Actors playing Straight characters.


It does become an interesting issue when applied to an "invisible" minority. Does it simply mean that the playing field is leveled? Both Gay and Straight actors vy for the same Gay and Straight roles? And what about the bisexuals?


In the same vein, if a Korean Actor can convincingly play Japanese or Chinese, does that even out the playing field for all Asian Actors?

How about Mexican, Puerto Rican, or any of the many flavours of Central and South American?

If they physically can pull it off, and convincingly speak the language or adapt the proper accent (depending on what is required of the role), is that enough?

I guess at the end of the day, we should be glad that minorities are finally getting a bigger chance to shine on the bid screen than they have in decades past. That is a good start. Now we need to see folks build on that with more diversity and multiculturalism to reflect the world around us and the increasingly shrinking planet.

[Hector]

I have no problem with Marlon Brando playing Mexican revolutionary Emiliano Zapata in "Viva Zapata!"

Paul Muni played the role of Mexican president, Benito Juarez, a Mexican/Zapotec indian, in "Juarez", again, no complaints from me.

Russell Crowe played a Spaniard in "Gladiator".

Mexican actor Ramon Novarro was Ben Hur.

The leading Native-American actor in Apocalypto, Rudy Youngblood, is from Belton, Texas, he's definitely NOT of Mayan decent (no people, not all indians are the same).

My point is, why should an actor, regardless of race, be limited to certain ethnic roles?

Acting is acting, the world of make believe.

P.S. And for your information, Hispanic is not a race, we come in all shades and colors.

Have you guys ever seen telenovelas before?

P.S.S. Good post, Samurai.


Oh, ok, you guys want the real deal?

http://www.vidiot.com/st-voy/images/VOY97802.jpg

:biggrin:

[K]

HardyGirl,

I've seen clips from Cons of her talking about that. She's hilarious!

[huedell]

Huedell...Would you feel the same if any old actor played the Falcon (John Leguizamo?), Luke Cage (Jackie Chan with a tan?), the Mandarin (Steven Sagal?) or Sunfire (Tom Cruise with make up to make him look Japanese?)...

If they did fine with the role then I wouldn't (and SHOULDN'T) complain.
I don't understand the idea that the most appropriate actor, or the
most accomadating actor should get the role is somehow "wrong".
Next thing you know, there'll be cries for REAL Klingons to play Klingons in movies
(well, its the same idea anyway...).


I think it's a huge insult to actors of the characters' ethnicities to not get the roles...Losing out to more popular actors (regardless of ethnicity).

THIS scenario? Like samurai said in his great post..."gray areas" man, "gray areas"

Well, sometimes "big names" sell a movie and that's that...just business.

Do I care about this?

I can EMPATHIZE with this plight...but "empathy" is about all I can offer as I've never
witnessed a casting decision like this that I objected to, as maybe others have
witnessed such--- and been irritated by because of.

[HardyGirl]

HardyGirl,

I've seen clips from Cons of her talking about that. She's hilarious!

Have you seen her and Michael Dorn together? Hysterical! :rotfl:

[K]

No but she referenced Michael's nickname for Troi in a YouTube interview. He nicknamed Troi "Space Wh*re". LOL!!!

[samurainoir]

I have to admit that one of my favourite old time noir films is A Touch of Evil.

Charleton Heston in Blackface playing a Mexican doesn't cut it today.
http://www.vafilm.com/1995/images/touch_of_evil.gif
In fact, it becomes downright laughable at times viewed within the context of a contemporary audience.
At the time, I'm sure it was extremely progressive that the lead character was supposedly Latino.

I would really love to see Benicio del Toro take on that role if they remade it today. (He's Puerto Rican right?)

[jds1911a1]

If Eli wallach can play a mexican in the good the bad and the ugly anyone can be cast in any enthnicity

[johnmiic]

With the exception of being racist or purposefully insulting a particular group I see no reason why anyone couldn't play any ethnicity in film, tv, stage and radio if they had the talent to do so.

This was a real bone of contention in NYC in the late 1980's when Miss Siagon came to America and Jonathan Pryce was slated to play an asian man and was required to wear fake asian eye makeup & prosthetics for the part. The actors guild really raised a stink over it and shot themselves in the foot.

The purpose of being an actor is to pretend, to try and be someone, something you are not. To convince people of the illusion. To create a character that lives and breathes. That is the whole of acting. You can't try and limit that or put conditions on it.

[huedell]

^^^^That about sums it up john---no overt racism or insults, and, well, the
"land of imagination" for actors---and casting people is an open game I believe

[jds1911a1]

With the exception of being racist or purposefully insulting a particular group I see no reason why anyone couldn't play any ethnicity in film, tv, stage and radio if they had the talent to do so.

This was a real bone of contention in NYC in the late 1980's when Miss Siagon came to America and Jonathan Pryce was slated to play an asian man and was required to wear fake asian eye makeup & prosthetics for the part. The actors guild really raised a stink over it and shot themselves in the foot.

The purpose of being an actor is to pretend, to try and be someone, something you are not. To convince people of the illusion. To create a character that lives and breathes. That is the whole of acting. You can't try and limit that or put conditions on it.

similiarly Joel Grey (cabaret) plays a Korean, Chuin in Remo williams and is great (my wife is korean so I am not unfamiliar with elderly Korean men)

[kept back]

And through this whole thread no one mentions the prejudice against ugly actors! As an ugly american I call foul out the beautiful Charlize Theron wearing prosthetic to make herslef ugly in Monster. Or the Stunning Nicole Kidman wearing a fake nose and greasy wig in The Hours. Your telling me they couldn't have found an ugly actress to pick up those Oscar nominated/winning roles? Or would an unnattractive but equally talented actress have even been nominated for those roles? Or how about the number of people who have picked up awards for playing mentally challenged individuals in film? It seems that the show Life Goes On proved that someone with a disability can act. But Dustin Hoffman plays an austisitc and the crowd goes wild. Sean Penn can pretend to be mentally challenged and the critics applaud. Alongside the cries of blackface, I call for cries of Ugly Mentally Impaired face!

[Hector]

I have to admit that one of my favourite old time noir films is A Touch of Evil.

Charleton Heston in Blackface playing a Mexican doesn't cut it today.
http://www.vafilm.com/1995/images/touch_of_evil.gif
In fact, it becomes downright laughable at times viewed within the context of a contemporary audience.
At the time, I'm sure it was extremely progressive that the lead character was supposedly Latino.

I would really love to see Benicio del Toro take on that role if they remade it today. (He's Puerto Rican right?)

Mexicans would be in an uproar if they were to see a Puerto Rican playing one of them (or vice versa), lol.

The Mexican media was very critical when Jennifer Lopez played Selena, they just hated it.

Go figure, lol.


If Eli wallach can play a mexican in the good the bad and the ugly anyone can be cast in any enthnicity

Exactly.

"With the exception of being racist or purposefully insulting a particular group I see no reason why anyone couldn't play any ethnicity in film, tv, stage and radio if they had the talent to do so.

This was a real bone of contention in NYC in the late 1980's when Miss Siagon came to America and Jonathan Pryce was slated to play an asian man and was required to wear fake asian eye makeup & prosthetics for the part. The actors guild really raised a stink over it and shot themselves in the foot.

The purpose of being an actor is to pretend, to try and be someone, something you are not. To convince people of the illusion. To create a character that lives and breathes. That is the whole of acting. You can't try and limit that or put conditions on it."

Well said, Johnmiic.

[samurainoir]

similiarly Joel Grey (cabaret) plays a Korean, Chuin in Remo williams and is great (my wife is korean so I am not unfamiliar with elderly Korean men)

I had mentioned Joel Grey in my previous post because I didn't think it was very cool for him to go yellowface when you had Key Luke, James Hong, James Shigeta, and so many other Asian actors that could have easily stepped into this role (At that point Pat Morita was probably too tied in to Mr Miyagi). It's not like these guys really have much of an equal opportunity chance to play caucasians in films y'know?

I'm cool with Japanese/Korean/Chinese and other Asians crossing the divides IF they can pull it off convincingly, because it's an even playing field for all involved. What I don't want to see is a guy identified as Japanese, speaking Cantonese.

Bad enough that they were generally limited to roles as "mysterious asians guys", waiters in chinese restaurants and martial arts instructors.

I attended a screening of the French film L'idole (http://imdb.com/title/tt0291259/) a few years ago where the director described how overjoyed and emotionally moved James Hong was at being cast in this movie after so many decades of the same tired stereotypical walk-on scenes.


With the exception of being racist or purposefully insulting a particular group I see no reason why anyone couldn't play any ethnicity in film, tv, stage and radio if they had the talent to do so.

This was a real bone of contention in NYC in the late 1980's when Miss Siagon came to America and Jonathan Pryce was slated to play an asian man and was required to wear fake asian eye makeup & prosthetics for the part. The actors guild really raised a stink over it and shot themselves in the foot.

The purpose of being an actor is to pretend, to try and be someone, something you are not. To convince people of the illusion. To create a character that lives and breathes. That is the whole of acting. You can't try and limit that or put conditions on it.


For me, this will start to take on an even more fascinating intercultural sociological dimension now that computer generated motion capture characters are a reality and the potential does exist for an actor to take on any form, not just the imaginary ones like Gollum and King Kong. Michael Clarke Duncan can theoretically play Woody Allen and vice versa.

It does potentially open up the playing field, but I would think that it is a bit of a landmine.


Mexicans would be in an uproar if they were to see a Puerto Rican playing one of them (or vice versa), lol.

The Mexican media was very critical when Jennifer Lopez played Selena, they just hated it.

Go figure, lol.



Keep in mind we are being critical of a Hollywood system that has historically cast caucasians as latino lead characters, while at the same time excluding those same minorities from leading roles. We are fortunate these days that there are superstar latinos like Jennifer Lopez's around to vy for those roles where there once weren't.

I'm not suprised that the media in Mexico was critical over that casting decision. I'm sure they wanted one of their own homegrown stars to fill that role (just as the Japanese were in an uproar over the Memoirs of a Geisha casting).

I'm just curious, how often do Spanish speakers notice descrepancies in regional/cultural differences when watching spanish spoken on English American Television? I'm sure the different accents can often be obvious givaways when they cast across Mexican/Puerto Rican/Cuban/Central and South American lines.



At the end of the day, I think there should be a bit more solidarity amongst minorities when it comes to this kind of thing. Or do you think that battle has been pretty much "won" with shows like Grey's Anatomy, Heroes and Lost featuring such a diverse and multi-ethnic cast?

I mean I had no problem with a black actor playing Kingpin in Daredevil because he was the best physical casting choice in my mind. Whereas I wouldn't necessarily think it was okay for Christian Bale to be cast as Black Panther.


And through this whole thread no one mentions the prejudice against ugly actors! As an ugly american I call foul out the beautiful Charlize Theron wearing prosthetic to make herslef ugly in Monster. Or the Stunning Nicole Kidman wearing a fake nose and greasy wig in The Hours. Your telling me they couldn't have found an ugly actress to pick up those Oscar nominated/winning roles? Or would an unnattractive but equally talented actress have even been nominated for those roles? Or how about the number of people who have picked up awards for playing mentally challenged individuals in film? It seems that the show Life Goes On proved that someone with a disability can act. But Dustin Hoffman plays an austisitc and the crowd goes wild. Sean Penn can pretend to be mentally challenged and the critics applaud. Alongside the cries of blackface, I call for cries of Ugly Mentally Impaired face!

Not to mention the obese. I think Eddie Murphy pretty much has an entire second career thanks to "fat suit" technology.

Although it's not like Kathy Bates or Roseanne Barr or John Candy have been excluded from the process no?

Your last point does kind of tug at me since I had worked many years as a community worker trying to integrate developmentally challenged folks into environments where they can live independantly and with dignity. As a filmmaker, given my lean timelines and budgetary restrictions, I know there is no way I could accomodate the realities associated with a developmentally challenged person in a non-documentary scripted fictional lead role, at least to the extent we are talking about with examples such as My Left Foot and Rain Man. I think I would have a bit more leaway with a character like Sean Penn's in I am Sam who is shown to be more functionally able to the extent that he has an independent living arrangment. The kind of budgets you get in Hollywood might be a different story, but outside of the positive publicity, what major studio would be willing to take that gamble? Particularly since the person in question would be an unknown without the box office draw of Dustin Hoffman? Maybe it is time that someone with clout stepped in to try to address that disparity.

[ABMAC]

Kingpin is an entirely different thing altogether. Michael Clarke Duncan didn't play Kingpin in whiteface, he played him as a black character. Similarly, there's no reason Bale couldn't play Back Panther as a white man, but I'd see it as a gratuitous change to an established character. I hate when Hollywood messes with stuff just because they can.

When actors play characters outside their own ethnicity, I guess it depends on the skill of the actor involved and the director's insistence on authenticity. I don't think Marina Sirtis can convincingly play a Latin American, nor could Charlton Heston, but Linda Hunt won an Academy Award for playing a half-Chinese man in The Year of Living Dangerously, and I think everyone was equally creeped out that her performance was so believable.

Hellboy's Nazi ninja, Kroenen, was played by a black man. That didn't bother me at all, because the actor had special skills that the role required, and he didn't have to portray a "normal" white man. Anyone can play a monster, but the closer a character is to "normal," the more critical I am.

[samurainoir]

Kingpin is an entirely different thing altogether. Michael Clarke Duncan didn't play Kingpin in whiteface, he played him as a black character. Similarly, there's no reason Bale couldn't play Back Panther as a white man, but I'd see it as a gratuitous change to an established character. I hate when Hollywood messes with stuff just because they can.

When actors play characters outside their own ethnicity, I guess it depends on the skill of the actor involved and the director's insistence on authenticity. I don't think Marina Sirtis can convincingly play a Latin American, nor could Charlton Heston, but Linda Hunt won an Academy Award for playing a half-Chinese man in The Year of Living Dangerously, and I think everyone was equally creeped out that her performance was so believable.

Hellboy's Nazi ninja, Kroenen, was played by a black man. That didn't bother me at all, because the actor had special skills that the role required, and he didn't have to portray a "normal" white man. Anyone can play a monster, but the closer a character is to "normal," the more critical I am.

I think the ironic thing about Michael Clarke Duncan being cast as Kingpin was the fact that I did hear arguments about it from pretty much all sides of the fence. Beyond the back and forth whether the character in the movie should be the same race as the character in the source material or not, I recall having a conversation where I mentioned that I approved of the "colourblind" casting choice, but it was pointed out to me that it could be equally problematic in some ways that the flip was based around a character that was a criminal. Although in this day and age I'm feeling that there are enogh black leading men out there playing heroes that this is more easily balanced out.

I'm feeling that intrinsic to the essence of Black Panther as a character is the fact that he is the sovereign ruler of an African Nation. A bit more problematic if Christian Bale did play it as a white man given the history of white rule on that continent.

On the other hand, I don't doubt that Bale has the acting chops to convincingly pull off a performance as a black man from a fictional nation in Africa. I mean look at the ends he went to with a role like the Machinist. Prosthetics/CGI modification could easily create a convincing illusion along with the proper dialogue/accent coaching. Whether a contemporary audience would be cool with that given the negative history of blackface and minstrel shows is another matter entirely.

Keep in mind what is and is not considered acceptable shifts generationally, and even then it's all about a "consensual reality" that is not necessarily (and cannot possibly) shared by everyone. Uncle Tom is seen as a derogatory term these days, but there is also an argument that Uncle Tom's Cabin helped bring about the abolition of slavery in America. At the time, the book was considered socially progressive.


I thnk we are all agreed here that "Blackface Bad", but we have a more of a divide around whether there can truly be "colourblind" casting or not given how minorities have been treated within the Hollywood system in the past, and whether or not there is still any lingering residue of that past which still impacts casting choices today (both on the pro and con side). I'm personally of the opinion that so-called Reverse-Racism in the realm of casting is not really an existing issue in front of the camera when it comes to Hollywood in this day and age, but then again maybe that is naive of me.

[ABMAC]

I think the ironic thing about Michael Clarke Duncan being cast as Kingpin was the fact that I did hear arguments about it from pretty much all sides of the fence. Beyond the back and forth whether the character in the movie should be the same race as the character in the source material or not, I recall having a conversation where I mentioned that I approved of the "colourblind" casting choice, but it was pointed out to me that it could be equally problematic in some ways that the flip was based around a character that was a criminal. Although in this day and age I'm feeling that there are enogh black leading men out there playing heroes that this is more easily balanced out.

I'm feeling that intrinsic to the essence of Black Panther as a character is the fact that he is the sovereign ruler of an African Nation. A bit more problematic if Christian Bale did play it as a white man given the history of white rule on that continent.

On the other hand, I don't doubt that Bale has the acting chops to convincingly pull off a performance as a black man from a fictional nation in Africa. I mean look at the ends he went to with a role like the Machinist. Prosthetics/CGI modification could easily create a convincing illusion along with the proper dialogue/accent coaching. Whether a contemporary audience would be cool with that given the negative history of blackface and minstrel shows is another matter entirely.

Keep in mind what is and is not considered acceptable shifts generationally, and even then it's all about a "consensual reality" that is not necessarily (and cannot possibly) shared by everyone. Uncle Tom is seen as a derogatory term these days, but there is also an argument that Uncle Tom's Cabin helped bring about the abolition of slavery in America. At the time, the book was considered socially progressive.


I thnk we are all agreed here that "Blackface Bad", but we have a more of a divide around whether there can truly be "colourblind" casting or not given how minorities have been treated within the Hollywood system in the past, and whether or not there is still any lingering residue of that past which still impacts casting choices today (both on the pro and con side). I'm personally of the opinion that so-called Reverse-Racism in the realm of casting is not really an existing issue in front of the camera when it comes to Hollywood in this day and age, but then again maybe that is naive of me.
I'm not familiar with whatever comic Kingpin appears in, so MCD's casting was moot as far as I was concerned. It did bother me when Will Smith was cast as James West in Wild Wild West, because I was a fan of the original television show, and because I felt that his casting was a gratuitous case of reverse discrimination. I think it ultimately hurt the movie at the box office, because a black hero in post-Civil War America was too much of a stretch for American audiences to accept. Colourblind is good, but historical revisionism is bad.

As for actors donning prosthetics and such to cross ethnic boundaries in acting, the main problem is that it implies there aren't any suitable actors of the "proper" ethnicity to play the roles. When it's true, as wih Kroenen, it's not a problem, but for a "normal" actor like Will Smith or Marina Sirtis, it's insulting.

[Hector]

Again, Latinos come in all colors of the rainbow...as I said before, Hispanic is NOT a race.

Also I find it sort of odd some of you referring to white actors playing Latino characters as being in blackface...I thought that was a reference for a white playing a black person.

What if a light-skinned Mexican like Gael Garcia Bernal plays Sugar Ray Leonard in a biographical movie...and had to don dark makeup...

Would that be considered being in blackface too?

[Mikey]

also all the white actors who were darkened with make-up in about 10,000,000 Westerns (TV and movie) to portray Indians--and in many cases Mexicans.

Michael Ansara (who is Lebanese) played an Indian so many times---- to this day, a lot of people think he actually is American Indian.

[ABMAC]

Again, Latinos come in all colors of the rainbow...as I said before, Hispanic is NOT a race.

Also I find it sort of odd some of you referring to white actors playing Latino characters as being in blackface...I thought that was a reference for a white playing a black person.

What if a light-skinned Mexican like Gael Garcia Bernal plays Sugar Ray Leonard in a biographical movie...and had to don dark makeup...

Would that be considered being in blackface too?
I'm using the term "blackface" to mean any time an actor's skintones are darkened for a role as a different ethnic type, no matter what the actor's original colour, because it almost always includes an element of racial stereotyping. Consider this; even though Heston couldn't play anything but a "white American hero," his darkened skin and hair was all it took for predominantly white audiences of the time to accept him as Vargas, the Mexican cop. Audiences wouldn't have accepted him as a light-skinned blonde Mexican because of the stereotype. If it had been important for Vargas to be a light-skinned blonde, audiences wouldn't have accepted anything less than a true light-skinned blonde Mexican in the role.

To see an even worse racial miscasting, check out Donna Reed's portrayal of Sacajawea in another Heston movie, The Far Horizons.

[palitoy]

To see an even worse racial miscasting, check out Donna Reed's portrayal of Sacajawea in another Heston movie, The Far Horizons.

I trump that with Marlon Brando's Okinawan in "The Teahouse of the August Moon" and bury it with John Wayne in "The Conquerer".

[ABMAC]

I trump that with Marlon Brando's Okinawan in "The Teahouse of the August Moon" and bury it with John Wayne in "The Conquerer".
Ouch. Yes, I was blanking on suitable fake Asian roles to mention. The worst I could think of were Karloff as Fu Manchu and Tony Randall as Dr. Lao, but they're watchable at least. Brando and Wayne are embarrassingly bad.

[Hector]

I'm using the term "blackface" to mean any time an actor's skintones are darkened for a role as a different ethnic type, no matter what the actor's original colour, because it almost always includes an element of racial stereotyping. Consider this; even though Heston couldn't play anything but a "white American hero," his darkened skin and hair was all it took for predominantly white audiences of the time to accept him as Vargas, the Mexican cop. Audiences wouldn't have accepted him as a light-skinned blonde Mexican because of the stereotype. If it had been important for Vargas to be a light-skinned blonde, audiences wouldn't have accepted anything less than a true light-skinned blonde Mexican in the role.

To see an even worse racial miscasting, check out Donna Reed's portrayal of Sacajawea in another Heston movie, The Far Horizons.

You make a good point, Ant...I stand down.

:xmas-smiley-008: