Star Trek: Which Saavik to you prefer?

[bobws]

Seven OH YES!

[Mikey]

Strange, but I never thought Rand was very hot.

She seemed "old", even at that time.

I never liked Chapel because for some reason I thought she seemed kind of masculine.

For me, it was Uhura .. especially after seeing her in Mirror, Mirror

[Captain]

She was kind of a unique body type wasnt she?
I hate to say it, and mean no disrespect to Mrs. Roddenberry (God rest her soul), but if she wasnt diddling the boss....I highly doubt she would have been a part of Trek in any way shape or form.

That said, she was great in both parts, and I cant see anybody else playing her characters (TNG included)...I just dont think she had the "look", 60's era casting directors were looking for (ala Susan Oliver).

[shaunhood]

Yep, Valeris was originally Saavik. Two things happened though. First, Nimoy thought the fans might not like seeing Saavik as a villian, and two, Nick Meyer would only use Kirstie Alley as Saavik. She wouldnt return, Nimoy won the battle, and a new character was created.

As for favorite Saavik...I vote for Robin Curtis. Alley was a bit better with the part, but even then she was showing signs of the wingnut she would turn into.

YEah... my thoughts too.. ROBIN CURTIS!!!

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Just Found this?

[Ghostwriter71]

Speaking of Continuity... Trek VI blew chunks, but that is a separate issue. Look at Saavik's uniform changing from Red (I always thought it was Orange...) to White and then Valeris has mis-matched Colar and Shoulder colors.
I'm such a ... nevermind.

Star Trek VI blew chunks? You are the first person I ever heard that hated VI. I thought it was fantastic. Plummer and Cattrall were excellent. The story was great. It was a wonderful swan song for the TOS cast!

As for Saavik's uniform change from red to white. It has been said in some Trek fandom circles that the red indicated a cadet. I suppose by STIII, she had become an officer and the color changed to white? There is inconsistency here, though because the colors of the collars and cuffs (say that five times fast), indicate departments. Scotty had an orange collar for Engineering that also applied to Security and "Support Services" whatever that means exactly.

Kirk and Spock always had white for Command, McCoy had a gray or perhaps slate blue for Sciences.

So even though Saavik was being bred for command, she was in Sciences aboard the Grissom in ST III and perhaps should have been wearing a Sciences color uniform.

[Ghostwriter71]

I just had this discussion on another forum. In short, while I have met Robin Curtis a number of times at conventions over the years and adore her very much, I have to admit that Kirstie Alley's Saavik had more character and began to show more depth than Robin's. That is, of course, not the actress' fault, more the script and directing.

Saavik is only half Vulcan. She is also half Romulan. Her mixed heritage is one of the reasons that Spock was drawn to her as he, too, is of two worlds. Her Romulan half has shown itself at times in ST II and I loved that.

Robin's Saavik was the typical stoic Vulcan. Some could argue that during the time between TWOK and TSFS, Saavik honored Spock and his legacy by pursuing logic adamantly and thus becoming more Vulcan but honestly, her Romulan half made her a uniqur character in ST II which was lost in ST III.

And yes, when writing ST VI, the female protege of Spock was once again intended to be Saavik but no one dared make her a villain so a new character was created in Valeris and I thought she was brilliant.

As for some of you who asked why Spock would have another protege when he already had Saavik. By the time ST VI came around, Saavik would have been a fairly well seasoned Fleet officer and no longer in need of a sponsor. As such, Spock would turn to another worthy cadet or young Vulcan officer and begin again.

Shame the second time around was not as successful for Spock.

Not that I'm a Trekkie or anything and take time to pay attention to such intricate details of the Trek universe...

[cdhall]

Nicholas Meyer said He would not recast Saavik a 3rd time

And yes, when writing ST VI, the female protege of Spock was once again intended to be Saavik but no one dared make her a villain so a new character was created...

I read an interview with Nicholas Meyer somewhere, when I used to be more of a Trekkie... he said Valeris was supposed to be Saavik but he could not get Kirstie Alley and he would not recast the role a 3rd time. He didn't like/want Robin Curtis.

I can't find the attribution. I don't know if it may be on the STVI DVD commentary if there is one, I just looked but I read that some time ago, in print I think, perhaps pre-www.

[cdhall]

Star Trek VI issues...

Star Trek VI blew chunks? You are the first person I ever heard that hated VI. I thought it was fantastic. Plummer and Cattrall were excellent. The story was great. It was a wonderful swan song for the TOS cast!

Ugh.

It has been a LONG TIME since I gave up on Trek and lost some of my memory. But maybe I am in a minority. I HATED the continuity errors. I used to be big into that. Mostly because since I spent from at least 1972ish-1979 wishing I could be in Starfleet and thus memorizing the shows as I loved them and watched them with great enjoyment, it has always offended me that the "professionals" in Hollywood would just "make something" with no regard to Why they were making it.

Star Trek movies have only ever been made because people wanted to see them. For a long time this was based on their love/attachment/identification with the original series. The conventions of the 70s illustrate this.

For a professional filmmaker to just throw a movie together with no regard for why and how they got the job is offensive to me. It is a reason I took a History of Film class in college perhaps. That is another discussion.

So, that being the case, here is some of what offended me about Star Trek VI, Particularly because Nicholas Meyer did it (I'd have to try to watch it again somehow to get a more proper list, this is from memory):

• The Admiral's were all 4 Star Admirals according the precedent Meyer set in STII (in some briefing room scene)
• The Admirals... all wore Military Ribbons! I was pretty sure the stuff on the Left Sleeve above the White band was for such awards. Again, Meyer seems to have abandoned the costumes he established himself in Trek II
• A Kitchen is shown perhaps for the first time in Trek/TOS. A Kitchen. Like at the Olive Garden or something? In 1966 they had machines create food ala the transporter. Kirk got a "Chicken Sandwich and Coffee" from one in Tribbles as I recall
• Velcro is apparently a type of tracking device, I think Spock sticks a piece on someones shoulder to track them
• Klingons quote and abuse Shakespeare... "The Original Klingon..." I mean, no one else on no other planet of the Federation is more venerated than Shakespeare? An English poet? It bugs me that 20th Century Europe has such influence in TOS-another issue I know.
• A phaser, first time ever, can disentegrate a Pot and Not the Contents? When did this happen?
• I seem to recall something irritating about lockers and magnetic boots
• Captain Sulu apparently sleeps in a stateroom about 10ft square and his bed is readily accessible from the front door-I'll take Kirk's TOS quarters any day
• I think in the Klingon Court Trial they apparently had forgotten about Universal Translators, or even UN headsets although I know the Klingons may have wanted to keep Kirk and McCoy in the dark about the speaking
• Spock seems to completely break character with his joke "I've been dead before" even though it was very funny
• Uhura, God bless her, Uhura, not Scotty, not someone in Special Ops back at HQ... decides that a Cloaked Ship's "gotta have a tailpipe" and defeats the Cloaking Device after what, over 20 years of it being at the Apex of the Arms race???
• Uhura and McCoy "perform surgery" on a Photon Torpedo in accordance with Uhura's Tailpipe theory. And this is another thing that always bugged me, I thought that like Phasers, Photon Torpedos were/should be LIGHT weapons made of PHOTONS so I never got the whole "casing" issue and loading issue which originated in STII. Once again, torpedo tubes have not been replaced in the 24th Century but we have Phasers and Disruptors and FTL travel and Force Fields and Transporters....

As for Saavik's uniform change from red to white...she was in Sciences aboard the Grissom in ST III and perhaps should have been wearing a Sciences color uniform.

I'd really have to go look this up. I don't recall the actual colors for the departments, I remember in 5th grade I mapped them out from STTMP but I think they changed in II. Red could have been for Cadet, that would be cool. But she should have had the proper color on the Grissom. She could have been 1st Officer on that ship I guess? I'd have to look into that though. I don't think I ever caught it.

I do want to mention that STIII is really funnier than I give it credit for. And also, I want to point out that in III Captain Esteban and his entire crew are apparently Killed because of Esteban's overt incompetence. That is hysterical to me and a great commentary that I didn't catch until perhaps years later.

I know there was more I didn't like about VI. Not including the tubing that fell out of the dining room cieling and other stuff, but I haven't seen it in forever and even if I watched it now, I would not remember or catch everything I didn't like.

A few years ago I finally threw away all my VHS of TOS and TNG. I had at least 2 copies of every episode that I had recorded from TV. I had to get rid of them finally. But I was very, very conversant in the "cannon" or screen reprsentation of everything in TOS and TNG for some time. Not anymore though, but I still recall good bits of it.

I hope this helps clarify what I didn't like about Trek VI. There were things I liked, but I'd have to watch it again to refresh myself.

And I should point out that particularly in my current state of "decay" I don't bear any grudges or anything over differences of opinion. I understand I always was more nit-picky than most. But I got a degree in Radio-TV-Film mostly because I loved Trek so much and, well... that probably says a lot right there...

[Captain]

Some good points Doug.

..A couple of things though.

The Enterprise did have a kitchen in conjunction with the food replicators. In Charlie X Kirk asks the chef to make turkey for thanksgiving, but ends up with meatloaf until Charlie turns them into turkeys (by the way Gene Roddenberry played the cook). Mr. Scotts Guide to the Enterprise also shows a traditional kitchen on c deck, just forward of the observation lounge seen in TMP. the kitchen is mentioned as being more for special meals and recreation use. I do agree the kitchen shown in 6 did look more like it belonged in a huge mess hall though didnt it?

Sulus quarters. These were actually a re-use of the TMP/Trek II crew quarters. They just swapped the main door in, where the bathroom (sonic shower) door was in the other films. Beyond the bed area is a larger living area. If you dont blink, you can see this in Trek III, when Styles is in his quarters (situated the same as Sulus).

As for Saaviks uniform, Red is indeed a cadet/in training color. (which makes it even more strange Valeris is wearing red ?). White is command, and I really doubt a cadet...even if she was already a lt.,...would go from trainee to first officer. Technically, she trained as a operations officer so she should have been in grey or orange if she was a helm officer.

Anybody else notice the female Asian bridge officer on the Grissom, also is on the bridge of the Excelsior.

The Vridian patch was meant to be some weird doohicky thing that Spock could use to track Jimmy T. I agree it was a bad idea, but it saved the writers having to come up with something better.

Uhura saving the day...Why not? Really, this was just an excuse to throw her into the story. She refused to say a lot of her lines in this movie for some reason, causing them to be given to others (mainly Chekov and Scotty). I was more concerned with Valeris having to explain to Chekov, former Chief of security aboard the Enterprise, why somebody couldnt vaporize their boots.

Esteban is indeed a putz. The Klingons did Starfleet a favor putting that goof out of his misery. The actor played a very similar part in the movie Midway...except he lived in that one.

Hmmm!? I've never heard Meyer say boo about Curtis.I always had the impression he had no idea who she even was. He does mention in the Trek 6 DVD, and in a Trek Magazine interview that he considered Saavik for the villian/Valeris role, but kind of backwards says Alley wasnt available for the role. In truth, Roddenberry...in one of the few battles he won in those late days....managed to put the kibosh on having a regular like Saavik portrayed as Vixis was in the film. Of course he also tried to get the scene with the two non-coms bad mouthing Klingons cut. He lost that one.

[cdhall]

Some good points Doug...
Hmmm!? I've never heard Meyer say boo about Curtis.

Thank you, Captain. I'm too rusty to elaborate much more, but I found this online which agrees with what I heard before although it provides no source for Meyer's supposed thoughts...

Interview With Nicholas Meyer | TrekMovie.com
65. billy don't be a hiro - July 16, 2007

Re: Saavik in Star Trek VI – that’s the way it was originally written. Saavik appeared and was revealed to be the traitor at the end, which would have had more impact since she was a previously established character as opposed to Valeris, who was sort of the obvious Scooby-Doo villain. Roddenberry didn’t like the idea, since Saavik was a “beloved character” at that point. Meyer didn’t appreciate Roddenberry’s interference as he felt that since he created the Saavik character in TWOK, he could do with her as he saw fit. Ultimately though it came down to casting. Meyer wasn’t interested in using Robin Curtis and tried to get Kirstie Alley to reprise the role. She was doing “Cheers” at the time and wasn’t interested, so rather than recast the part of Saavik a second time, Meyer decided to just create a new character. That’s all been documented in various interviews, so the information’s out there if you want to track it down.

[Ghostwriter71]

Well, to be honest as much as I enjoy discussions of the fine details and nitpicks, in the end, I enjoy a good STORY and plot and characters above and beyond worrying about what Admiral is wearing what military ribbons and what tubing fell from a dining room ceiling.

I thought VI had a strong, meaningful story with a good moral and that was what Trek is all about. I can go into great detail about the flaws and inconsistencies all throughout Trek, not just from one movie to another.

As for Nick Meyer, I think he's a brilliant writer and director and was involved in what are generally accepted as the best of the Trek movies, II, IV and VI. He co-wrote The Voyage Home which is tied with Wrath of Khan as my favorite Trek movie.

Oh but as for the courtroom scene in VI, Doug mentioned a lack of translators for Kirk and McCoy. Please watch the film again as they are holding what look like crude radios to their ears and the camera does pan behind a wall where two Klingons are speaking English into microphones, presumably for Kirk and McCoy.

And of course, Plummer's Klingon screams at Kirk: "Answer me now! Don't wait for the translation!"

[Captain]

Thank you, Captain. I'm too rusty to elaborate much more, but I found this online which agrees with what I heard before although it provides no source for Meyer's supposed thoughts...

Interview With Nicholas Meyer | TrekMovie.com
65. billy don't be a hiro - July 16, 2007

Re: Saavik in Star Trek VI – that’s the way it was originally written. Saavik appeared and was revealed to be the traitor at the end, which would have had more impact since she was a previously established character as opposed to Valeris, who was sort of the obvious Scooby-Doo villain. Roddenberry didn’t like the idea, since Saavik was a “beloved character” at that point. Meyer didn’t appreciate Roddenberry’s interference as he felt that since he created the Saavik character in TWOK, he could do with her as he saw fit. Ultimately though it came down to casting. Meyer wasn’t interested in using Robin Curtis and tried to get Kirstie Alley to reprise the role. She was doing “Cheers” at the time and wasn’t interested, so rather than recast the part of Saavik a second time, Meyer decided to just create a new character. That’s all been documented in various interviews, so the information’s out there if you want to track it down.

Interesting...I wonder what his actual issue with Curtis was? Not that it matters I suppose.
On a somewhat related issue, Meyer has a book coming out soon about his time with the Trek franchise, should be an interesting read.

Thanks Doug

[samurainoir]

Star Trek 6 happened to be on, so I watched it for the very first time tonight.

It's interesting to see how they use the death of Kirk's son as part of Valeris' scripted motivation upon the reveal that she was the traitor. I can see how it would have had much more weight if it had been Saavik, given that she witnessed David's death at the hands of the Klingons.

[devonp]

Kirstie Alley was good as the hybrid Vulcan/Romulan Saavik. Robin Curtis seemed much more Vulcanlike by ST:III, probably an after effect of studying under Spock for so long and trying to emulate him as she being a hybrid too would suffer the same insecurities regarding her Vulcan heritage and would likely overcompensate like Spock did initially! As for Valeris, I'm glad Saavik wasn't the traitor, and I hated her look, that hairstyle was hideous, the lack of hair around the face or sideburns really made her face appear misshapen and oversized detracting from her beauty! as for Classic Trek: Chapel or Rand, I had a schoolboy crush on Janice!!!!