For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[Gorn Captain]

Yes very well said. Now lets have 5 more pages of long posts looking at that bit by bit.

I'd thought you'd never ask!
Great idea!

Let me put my 3000 page essay on The Force in my next post!

[Gorn Captain]

Darklord, you seem so intent on proving that Kenobi was a liar that you're missing the point and purpose of his falsehood (in-universe).

Much anger about Darklord, I sense in you, Vortigern99.

Can I offer everyone my new Sith Lord Anger Management (SLAM) course?
It's only $99.99, and permits for the use of only two Force Chokes during the whole course.
Two free rebel Soldiers are included, should further "venting" be needed.


Seriously.
As you can read in my previous post, I, too, cut Ben a bit more slack, though I have to agree with Darklord, that the jedi sure messed things up, for the order, for themselves personally, and for Anakin.
Life sure can throw you some curves....

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Hey Dark Lord. . . .can you link to our last discussion. . . .I had a poke around but didn't find it. I am just way too lazy to read all this thread again. . .or write out my views again. . . .so would love to find the last debate on this and get it linked. Do you remember where it was?

[Vortigern99]

Darklord, you seem so intent on proving that Kenobi was a liar that you're missing the point and purpose of his falsehood (in-universe). Is a parent a reprehensible liar who tells his children that Santa Claus brought them their Christmas presents? How about adoptive parents who hide the truth of their child's birth until he's old enough to carry the burden? Sometimes a lie is harmless; sometimes it's a necessity.

Luke Skywalker was a young, naive farmboy who was only just learning about a larger world that included the Force and the reasons for the struggle between the Rebellion and the Empire. If Kenobi had told Luke the truth -- that his biological father was a Sith lord who served a genocidal tyrant -- it's probable and likely that Luke would have questioned himself -- "Am I also evil at heart?" -- when what the Galaxy needed at that time was a hero, confident in his own goodness and heroism. During Luke's trench run on the Death Star, would Luke have had the peace of mind, the Zen state required to give himself over to the Force, if he had known that his own father was a despicable murderer? I say not -- he would have been plagued by doubts, consumed by questions of his own worth as a hero and wielder of the Force.

The success of the Rebellion and the fate of the Galaxy rested in Luke's hands, and Kenobi knew it. He was wholly justified in keeping the truth from Luke. Yoda, on his deathbed, accuses Luke of running away from his training before he was ready for the burden of his true paternity; Luke, to his credit, apologizes. This amounts to an admission that he was not yet ready to know the truth.

Say what you will about Kenobi's character, accusing him of all manner of misdeeds while bewlideringly elevating Anakin, an incipient Sith Lord, to the status of "model Jedi". At the end of the day, Kenobi's story of Vader vs. Anakin was a necessary untruth, designed to protect a young hero from the burden of knowledge that would have undone his burgeoning confidence and sense of worth.

[Seeker]

Yes. Obi Wan lied.

So did R2 and Yoda.
They never told Luke about his dad neither.

Freakin' Jedis.

Yes very well said. Now lets have 5 more pages of long posts looking at that bit by bit.

[Mego Milk]

Yes. Obi Wan lied.

So did R2 and Yoda.
They never told Luke about his dad neither.

Freakin' Jedis.

[Gorn Captain]

No problem.
Now this is the kind of debate that I like.
We might not always agree of everything, but wouldn't that turn out to be "a boring conversation anyway"...

I love SW, on many levels. As a fun SF flick, an exciting adventure.
But there's more.
The concept of the Force touches me "in reality" as well. I stay away from any organized "groups" (in politics, religion, even fan clubs ). I respect the views of others, and am happy that they can find their fulfilment in it. As long as it is not imposed on me. I feel that it is a basic core of The Force, that respect is needed for everything, be it a person, a group, or even something as seemingly simple as a tree, a mountain or river.
I'd think we'd all be better off it that respect and empathy were to run through our society. Because that is what The Force, and Lucas' creation, is to me. That bond with our universe. It saddens me, that at times I feel he himself has lost a bit of that bond.

His walk of life seems to follow that of Anakin, I feel. Too much obsession with machines and the idea that "we can do anything". That is arrogance. It could be our downfall.
This morning, I read that that machine in Switserland, that particle accelerator that might create black holes, had to be shut down due to "overheating". They say "that is normal, nothing to worry about". Hm. "OVERheating". Is that normal?
Should we "pervert" Nature, simply because we can?
Is that not the way of the Dark Side?

I believe Lucas had something fundamental to say about our society.
About reaching out to Nature, the Supreme Force.
About what goes wrong if you mess with it. When you feel that YOU are better than other people, than any living being, than our planet that sustains us.

We have the same arrogance as the Jedi at times. We're top of the food chain, you know. I'm afraid that our lesson in humility might be as devastating as the Jedi Council found out.
That is why I try not to judge people too harshly, but I'm just as weak as all around me at times. That's what makes us human. There's no fault in being human, but there IS in not acknowledging your mistakes, and soon enough, so you can live to tell the tale and move along and grow.

We're going through dark times now.
"All Arabs are terrorists."
"All Westerners are heathen dogs."
Jews killing Palestines, and vice-versa. Most of Africa is engulfed in war, famine, drought and AIDS.

In a way, we're going through our Clone Wars now, an enhanced version of the Crusades and Middle Ages,but with better weapons. We have Death Stars now. Annihilating Power.

It's time to reach out to what binds us.
I couldn't think of a better concept that The Force.

One last word on old Ben K.
Flawed characters are sometimes the best ones. As a teaching aid. A learning experience. My favourite character in LOTR is...Boromir. Arguably, the most...human among them. I could feel his struggle, his need to do right, his failing to do so. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. White Knights are heroes, Black Knights are the clear Nemesis, but it's the ones in between that are the interesting ones.
'cause that's us!

[darklord1967]

Hmmm.

Eloquently and beautifully stated, GC.

I was particularly struck by your assessment that an "unyeilding verdict" on Kenobi makes one as rigid as the extinct Jedi Order.

A kick in the chicklets if I ever read it, but certainly (grudgingly) true, I must admit.

In a few brief lines, you've really shown me something vital here... something even about myself that I was unaware of.

For that, I thank you.

[Gorn Captain]

Ok. Here's how I see it.
I must tread carefully here, as not to offend people.

I think the failure of the jedi order is symbolic of many "organized religions". They lose sight of the individual people and their needs, impose doctrin and a set of rules. But they forget that they are still people themselves, therefore fallible. They structure a hierarchy, in which all ranks are supposed to "impose" on lower ranks. Kenobi was, I feel, a decent man, entangled in that hierarchy. He wasn't playing by his own rules. He was imposing doctrin.
I agree with you that he could have handled it differently. That the scene in ROTJ could have been more of a confession and apology than it was. To be honest, I feel that the character of Ben was handled poorly in this scene, by all parties involved. This was an important scene, that didn't receive enough attention from the creators (writer/director/actor). Guinness sleepwalked through it (much like Ford for Solo). The director didn't have enough drive. Pity we can't blame it on the Ewoks....

But basically, for me, Ben's failure (in training, in handling Luke,...) is a big part the failure of the Order, and their views on how to run it. Once a "religious" structure becomes bigger, and starts imposing, the fundamental concepts gets warped. The Force is all about Nature, and feelings, connecting with that power. The Jedi Order, unfortunately, lost sight of that. They focused on their own rules, not thinking how this affected their followers, and that other beings not necessarily played by the same rules.
Hence the Rise of the Sith. The pointless death of Qui-Gon. I feel HE would have handled Anakin a lot better, being a bit of a rogue Jedi himself, though the fact that he left Anakin's mother behind could point towards his own blindness.

I DO believe in the inherent kindness of Ben, but he handled many things poorly. He followed Jedi doctrin like a slave, and went down with it. The same for Yoda. A tragic mistake. They did everything wrong in Anakin's case.
To be honest, even at the end of part III, Ben should have either saved Anakin or killed him, not some weak "I won't kill you".

But, do not forget, we all have weaknesses. Perhaps we should empathise with Ben, learn from his mistakes. An unyielding "verdict" on the man, would make us a rigid as the extinct Jedi order. We must be more flexible and adaptable, my friend. That is the way of the Force.

[darklord1967]

Much anger about Obi-Wan, I sense in you, Darklord1967.

Good one! Well, I suppose I DO find Kenobi's words somewhat reprehensible.

I disagree about quite a few things in this thread ( and I could talk about this for hours)

Please DO!! I'm not sure if you disagree with some of the points stated throughout this thread OR if (more specifically) you disagree with some of MY stated opinions.

Either way, please indicate which specific points you disagree with so that we can have a more targeted discussion.

but one thing I must say: the Jedi handled their affairs all wrong.
Take Anakin's case: he is forced to leave his (slave) mother behind, not allowed to look back, or save her. They leave this to brood in him for, what, over ten years?
They force him to push aside normal feeling of love and commitment.
No wonder the guy goes awol and starts slaughtering Sand People!
No wonder he turns against them.

When it comes down to it, they force an unnatural life on many of their Jedi knights.
Anakin made his own choice, but the Jedi Council surely pushed him right to the very edge first.

Couldn't agree with you more on this point. We're on the same page.

If Ben lied to Luke, well, sometimes a lie is kinder than the truth. It depends on many factors.

Well, here's where I think we may disagree. Yes, sometimes a lie IS kinder than the truth.

However in THIS particular instance, it is NOT... at least not in my view.

Obi-Wan's lie (Anakin' brutal "murder" at the hands of Darth Vader) was certainly NOT "kinder" than the truth (Anakin's dark-side seduction and continued life transformed into another individual)

Just look at Luke's face when he hears of Anakin's "murder". He is shocked and horrified.

Learning the truth may very well have been easier for Luke to stomach... even at that point. He was emotionally quite resilient.

It's like I said before: Kenobi was never interested in anyone's feelings, nor was he interested in being "kind".

Emotional kindness toward others really does not seem to be a major priority for the Jedi... at least not for Ben Kenobi.

He certainly was NOT "kind" during his RETURN OF THE JEDI clarification "fess-up" speech. No regrets. No apologies to Luke for being so blatantly misleading.

No, Kenobi's original lie was designed mainly to cover up HIS OWN failures regarding Anakin and his transformation into Vader... and to avoid chronicling a painful past for the inquiring young man.

The only reason for Kenobi's (possible) consideration of Luke's feelings at that point was to avoid the farmboy's refusal to become a Jedi, and to avoid his refused assistance in defeating Vader and the Empire.

And Kenobi was probably correct in that assessment. Luke probably would NOT have joined a crusade against Vader if he knew up front that the Sith Lord was his dad.

However, I doubt strongly that Luke would have JOINED Vader either... knowing what a vile personality he had become.

Luke was far too virtuous a personality for that.

All indications are that Luke would have proposed the only remaining alternative: The redemption of Anakin Skywalker... not his destruction.

Of course this would have gone against Yoda and Kenobi's agenda.

Ironically, Luke's solution would STILL have required jedi training.

I wouldn't focus on any possible lies that were told-or not-, but more on that certain arrogance of the Jedi, to believe in their own infallibility.

Well I certainly think that I covered the arrogance of the Jedi quite thoroughly in my posts. However, i DO believe that this arrogance, and belief in infallibility were at the very CORE of Kenobi's lie to Luke in the first place.

[Gorn Captain]

Much anger about Obi-Wan, I sense in you, Darklord1967.

I disagree about quite a few things in this thread ( and I could talk about this for hours), but one thing I must say: the Jedi handled their affairs all wrong.
Take Anakin's case: he is forced to leave his (slave) mother behind, not allowed to look back, or save her. They leave this to brood in him for, what, over ten years?
They force him to push aside normal feeling of love and commitment.
No wonder the guy goes awol and starts slaughtering Sand People!
No wonder he turns against them.

When it comes down to it, they force an unnatural life on many of their Jedi knights.
Anakin made his own choice, but the Jedi Council surely pushed him right to the very edge first.
If Ben lied to Luke, well, sometimes a lie is kinder than the truth. It depends on many factors. Did Ben fail? The whole council did, being shortsighted.
"Sith Lords are extinct, hence they can't exist now."
What kind of simple reasoning was that?

I wouldn't focus on any possible lies that were told-or not-, but more on that certain arrogance of the Jedi, to believe in their own infallibility.


PS: Luke and Leia's romantic involvement? I don't think Lucas would have allowed The Kiss, had he planned beyond that in advance. And if you look closely, on Hoth in the medical centre, I do believe I spotted an Intergalactic Pregnancy Test Kit in the trash can....

[darklord1967]

If I may momentarily break my own "in universe" debate guidelines for a moment:

I'm quite certain that GL would disagree vehemently with my Obi-Wan rat-fink liar assessment.

He definitely sees Kenobi's "...certain point of view..." justification regarding Anakin's "murder" by Darth Vader as perfectly within the boundaries of Obi-Wan's personal belief system.

It was probably the main reason why he changed the Force-Spirit of Anakin in the Return of the Jedi DVD from old Sebastian Shaw into young Hayden Christensen.

Lucas saw Anakin as "dead" immediately after assuming the identity of Darth Vader.

Therefore, when good Anakin was "resurrected" at the end of Jedi, it was as he last appeared (as a good young man).

However, (in my view) Lucas' revisionist changes COMPLETELY IGNORE the very basic fact that it was "good" Anakin Skywalker who saved his son Luke from being murdered at the hands of the Emperor on Death Star II. It was NOT Darth Vader.

And it was Anakin Skywalker who asked to see his son's face with his own eyes just before he died. Not Darth Vader.

In my view, Anakin Skywalker was NOT "ressurrected" at the end of Return of the Jedi. He "re-emerged". There's a HUGE difference.

A ressurrection implies a return from the dead. And Anakin was NOT dead.

Spiritually-speaking, he was imprisoned. He was tragically burried alive and surpressed deep down... virtually smothered by the greed, cruelty, and viciousness of Darth Vader.

But when he found the courage to fight Vader and his Emperor and "re-emerge", he did so victoriously... and he fulfilled his role in the ancient prophecy as the Chosen One".

In a very real sense it was Luke Skywalker who finally "killed" Darth Vader.

You see, Luke's strong love and faith in the goodness residing inside his father was a powerful weapon that cowardly Vader could never stand up to or defend against.

That weapon, when combined with the long-dormant spiritual courage of a true Jedi Knight was more than enough to destroy Darth Vader and his vile Emperor.

I think that is the ultimate moral of the Anakin Skywalker story:

Strength, courage, skills with a blade... these things are fine, but they are not everything

An individual must also have the respect, support, love and faith of a loved one in order to weather the most difficult trials and challenges that life presents.

Armed with that, a person can withstand virtually anything... certainly the temptations of a lowly Sith Lord.

That's what the Jedi failed to understand.

A Jedi shall not know possession, attachment... or love"

Hmm. Indeed.

[darklord1967]

Basically he said that the good man that was Anakin was murdered by the evil man that was Darth Vader-Anakin. The bad side of the coin destroying the good side.
More or less like Batman's Two-Face, whose dark side took over, crushing his virtuous one.
Was that a lie, or a distortion of a situation that might have messed up Luke forever?

From Kenobi's "... own point of view..." that was a LIE. The evidence is plain as day to see in the movie saga:

There was certainly more sincerity on Yoda's part than there was on Obi-Wan's regarding the spiritual viewpoint of Anakin's "demise".

As far as I can see, it was never Kenobi's tendency to view things spiritually.

This is at the core of my vehement insistence that he LIED BLATANTLY to Luke back on Tatooine with his "...certain point of view..." assessment of Darth Vader's "murder" of Anakin Skywalker.

Don't forget: Moments after he and Yoda discovered the painful truth about Anakin's fall to the Dark Side of the Force and tranformation into Darth Vader, it was Obi-Wan's continued tendency to see Vader as "Anakin".

By contrast, it was Yoda who immediately expressed the viewpoint that (spiritually speaking), the boy Kenobi trained was "gone", and that he was "consumed" by Darth Vader.

Later on, even as Kenobi clashed furiously with Darth Vader on firey Mustafar, he continued to "see" (and refer to) him as "Anakin".

Obi-Wan didn't have the heart to kill a defeated Darth Vader in cold blood on Mustafar. But only because he continued to see him as Anakin Skywalker. Where was his "spiritual viewpoint" of two separate personalities then?

Interestingly enough, despite Yoda's own legitimate spiritual viewpoint, at least he answered with a simple, truthful "Your father he is" when Luke asked if Vader's claim was true.

No shuckin' and jivin'. No BS.

[darklord1967]

Ben shielded Luke from a terrible truth.
He did give him indications about what happened. And tried to take it from there.

If I had to tell a young innocent man about his evil father (evil at the time of speaking about it, not when Anakin was young), I'd sugarcoat it. Waiting for a better time, when that young man was stronger.

What could he say?: "Hi, young man, your Daddy was a genocidal baby-killing monster. But he started out pretty decent, though. Now, how about some breakfast?"

Well certainly, giving those gruesome details would have been counterproductive at that point... even though it would have been the truth.

However, telling Luke that his father was still alive but tragically living under the spell of the Dark Side of the Force as a different individual named Darth Vader would at least have been the TRUTH, and it would have been compassionate.

But Kenobi was NOT interested in sparing the boy's feelings.
He was not interested in it back on Tatooine in A NEW HOPE
And he sure as heckfire was NOT interested in Luke's feelings during his emotionless "...certain point of view..." justification during RETURN OF THE JEDI.

It was as if he looked directly into the face of Luke Skywalker's painful (justified) resentment, shrugged his shoulders, sat on a log and said, "Suck it up, kiddo. I hustled you. That's the way the cookie crumbles."

No apologies. No regrets.

No, I'm sorry but, Kenobi never cared about anyone's feelings. Emotions are irrelevant to a Jedi, remember?

As a young man, Kenobi didn't care about Anakin's feelings.
And as an old man / Force ghost, he didn't care about Luke's feelings either.


Telling Luke that his father was brutally murdered (when he was NOT) isn't the act of someone looking to protect someone's feelings. It is, in fact, a horrible thing to say... especially when it is NOT true.

Furthermore it's a lie that's potentially traumatic (if we're going to talk about protecting Luke's feelings).

No, Obi-Wan's lie is the act of someone who is covering up his own GUILT over the matter. It is also the act of someone who is trying to MANIPULATE Luke into joining a crusade to fight the Empire and kill Darth Vader by neglecting to mention that he is also his dad.

This patricide goal continued to be Yoda and Kenobi's focus even after his Return of the Jedi fess up. (Re: "You must face Darth Vader again" "He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil".)

De-personalize and de-humanize Anakin, and it's easy to imply "destroying" him like if he were a badly malfunctioning car or something. That's Kenobi's tactic.

Hmmm. Sounds like shades of that same arrogant PUNK who referred to Anakin as "...another pathetic life-form..." all those years ago on Tatooine.

Ultimately, it was LUKE who rejected Jedi doctrines of not acting for "personal desire" etc when he ignored Kenobi's assessment that Vader's destruction was the only option for a peaceful galaxy.

Remember, it was LUKE who instead saw his father's salvation as an alternative solution.

It a good thing too, because ultimately it was Luke's love and his personal desires for his father's redemption that finally claimed Anakin from the clutches of the Dark Side, and gave the old man the courage to vanquish Palpatine and bring an end to his reign of galactic cruelty and terror.

So much for strict Jedi codes.

Just imagine if Luke had followed Yoda and Kenobi's implications and murdered his own father back on Death Star II (when he had his sword at Vader's throat).

What would have been the result?

Palpatine would have asked Luke to join him. Luke would have refused. And Palpatine would have fried him with Force lightning until he was dead.

The Death Star II would still have been destroyed of course. But Palpatine might very well have escaped the calamity to live on and fight another day (it's what villains do).

In the meantime, he would have cheerfully placed ads for a new sith apprentice while The Empire re-grouped and re-fortified its forces under his continued leadership.


In response to your "What could he have said?" question:

I would have MUCH less of an issue with Obi-Wan's words to Luke having room for a spiritual viewpoint interpretation if he had said:

" A young Sith Lord named Darth Vader, who was my Jedi pupil before he joined the Sith and turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and destroyed your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."


Having phrased it like this, the "...certain point of view... " argument could definitely have been made more legitimately. Are these words misleading? Yes. But technically they are NOT a lie... not from a spiritual standpoint.

[darklord1967]

Alright, here's how I see this whole situation:



Obi-Wan Kenobi LIED... plain and simple. Evidently, "kindly old Obi-Wan" was not so virtuous as we were all led to believe.

Furthermore, many of the noble reasons for Kenobi's lie (as stated by some of you here) simply hold NO WATER for me at all... especially in light of everything we saw in the prequels.

Let's take this chronologically episode, by episode.

As a young man (in Episode I) Kenobi was an arrogant twerp who considered himself (and acted like he was) superior to "pathetic life forms". He had a tumultous relationship with his own master (that HE cultivated by not "knowing his place"), and then he likely felt jealous of Qui-Gon's afinity for the new little kid.

He had such disregard for little Ani that he talked about him right in front of him, as if he were un-important or had no feelings ("The boy is dangerous")

Moments later the poor kid goes to Qui Gon feeling hurt and rejected ("Master Qui-Gon, I don't want to be a problem.")

Later on, in Episode II as he trains Anakin to be a Jedi, Obi-Wan is a control freak who berates, belittles, and humiliates Anakin at every turn and at every opportunity, with snide remarks ("Your senses are not that attuned, my young apprentice" "You will learn your place young one"), sarcasm ("Good job!" during Ani's attempted rescue at the Geonosis arena), and frankly, jealousy over the kid's amazing abilities ("I hate it when he does that").

Compassion for others is supposed to be one of the cornerstones of Jedi philosophy and way of life. Apparently, Kenobi doesn't feel that this compassion should be extended to his appentice. When Skywalker tells him of the troubled nightmares he's been having of his mother's brutal, painful murder, Obi shrugs it off with, "Dreams pass in time."

Nevermind that Anakin may have had a spiritual connection with his mother.

And of course we all know how THAT situation panned out. Thanks again, Obi, for the support.

That was how Kenobi treated a padawan who was fiercely loyal and devoted to him, and had saved HIS butt on countless occasions... even BEFORE the break out of the Clone Wars.

Don't even get me started about the constant rejection, mistrust, and flagrant hostility that the Jedi council demonstrates against Anakin.

So finally, in Episode III at the last possible moment when Anakin sees no choice but to turn to the Dark Side of the Force, these arrogant, self-important Jedi with their rules, and codes, and archaic traditions are unable to see what they did wrong. They are unable to see how THEY contributed to Anakin's fall from grace.

For someone that THEY considered to be the "Chosen One", they sure kept him at arms length!

I don't reject the idea that Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was his own choice, and that it was a vile immoral one.

I also fully accept that Anakin's fate was a form of self-fulfilling prophecy: The agonized death that he foretold and envisioned for Padme was a condition HE created by trying to save her from said fate.

However, in that same way, the Jedi Council's fate was also a form of self-fulfilling prophecy. The "...uncertain, clouded, future..." (fall from grace) of that "... dangerous..." 9 year old boy was partially a condition that THEY created by rejecting, insulting, and isolating that young man so thoroughly.

It's shocking to me how a group of supposedly virtuous and compassionate knights could be so openly hostile and suspicious of someone who was only guilty of being fiercely loyal to THEM: (Re: MACE WINDU: I don't trust him.)

On the other hand...Anakin is a selfish jerk.

Hmmm... We definitely disagree on THAT point.

Anakin was an exemplary Jedi. He won battle after battle on behalf of the Republic during the Clone Wars. He single-handedly killed Count Dooku, rescued the kidnapped Supreme Chancellor, and basically became the Jedi "...poster boy..." and Republic hero.

Even after Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith Lord, Anakin's first act (due to his allegance to the Jedi) was to threaten him at sword point. And don't forget: This was probably the only man who was supportive of him and treated him kindly. Of course, Anakin's second act was to report Palpatine as a Sith Lord to Mace Windu so that he could be arrested.

What did he get for his troubles? More suspicion and mistrust from Windu: (Re: MACE: For your own good, stay here, Anakin. I sense much confusion that clouds your judgement. If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust.")

In other words, not even Anakin doing his sworn duty as a Jedi (and reporting an admitted Sith Lord) was enough to gain Windu's trust.

As for Anakin's "...confusion..." and "...clouded judgement.." he wasn't so confused or clouded in his judgement that he didn't know what the RIGHT THING TO DO WAS. He reported the vile Sith Lord... and he did it without hesitation!

If Yoda, Windu and some of the others had treated their "chosen one" with more of the decency and compassion for others that they espoused as their philosophy, then perhaps he might NOT have turned, and all would be well.

So now when you flash forward 19 or so years to Episode IV, and Luke Skywalker asks Obi-Wan "How did my father die?", Kenobi chooses to give a political answer because THAT'S how the Jedi were used to dealing with things... depite their supposed propensity toward compassion.

To those of you that assign some sort of nobility to Kenobi's misleading fib to Luke, I propose that there was ABSOLUTELY NO nobility or compassion in it at all. And there was even LESS compassion in his ROTJ bull crap "...certain point of view..." justification.

It was easier for Kenobi to say that Darth Vader "... betrayed and murdered..." Anakin Skywalker, because then he could place the blame outside himself and the jedi council for Anakin's terrible fate.

What Kenobi told Luke was not only untruthful in FACT, it was untruthful FIGURATIVELY, and it was untruthful even from Obi-Wan's "...point of view..."

If Obi-Wan saw things spiritually (as his "...certain point of view..." explanation implies), and he saw Darth and Anakin as TWO SEPARATE personalities, then he STILL LIED back on Tatooine.

Darth Vader was never "A young Jedi". He was a Sith Lord and Obi-Wan's sworn enemy from the moment he was "born".

Darth Vader was never "... a pupil of..." Kenobi's

And even though the Darth Vader personality betrayed the Anakin Skywalker personality, it COULD NOT (by definition) "murder" it.

A personality CANNOT be "murdered". THIS IS THE VERY CRUX OF KENOBI'S LIE!!!!!!

A "murder" is a very specific kind of destruction. For a "murder" to happen, one living, breathing individual must have their PHYSICAL life-sustaining functions permanently discontinued (causing physical death) by the actions of another individual. This act MUST occur against the will, wishes and desires of the "victim". In other words, the victim must DESIRE continued physical life.

Anything short of this definition and you do NOT have a "murder"... not even from Obi-Wan's standpoint. This is why he used the more general term "destroyed" (during his Episode VI fess-up) when describing the fate of Anakin's personality / spirit.

The clarification of his own "viewpoint" in Return of the Jedi made it very clear that he intellectually, emotionally, and factually understood the precise details of Anakin's fall to the dark side, and that he had made a very deliberate attempt at misleading deception when he told Luke the story of Anakin's "murder" back on Tatooine.

To "destroy" is NOT THE SAME as to "murder".

Someone can be "killed / destroyed" in an auto accident
Someone can be "killed / destroyed" in a natural disaster
A manically depressed person can "destroy" themselves by doing lots of narcotics.

But NONE of these "killings" or forms of "destruction" can be classified as a "murder".

A "murder" is a specific KIND of destruction... just like suicides, homicides, etc are.

The same thing CANNOT be said the other way around. A "destruction" is NOT a specific kind of "murder".

Obi-Wan is a master manipulator, and he manipulated language very carefully in his original bull crap story to Luke, thereby creating a completely false impression of the facts as they occurred.

For example, by saying that Darth Vader was "... a pupil of mine" Kenobi implied that there was more than one pupil under his tutelage, when in fact there was only ever Anakin. Of course more than one individual creates a condition where a "murder" is entirely possible.

If anyone disagrees with my assessment on this point, try this experiment:

The next time you introduce your wife to someone, try saying, "Hi, this is Sarah. She is a wife of mine.

I guarantee that unless you are living happily in a polygamous marriage, you'll find yourself in the doghouse!