For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[DocDrako]

I don't debate well, so I'm not going to. But I do want to say a couple things. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1977 and I'm still a fan. The prequels don't sit well with me, but that's mostly because I have imagined how it (the history of Darth Vader) all happened ever since 1977. George Lucas' vision of his story is not the same vision I had as a kid growing up. But then, it's his story.

I've always thought that Obi-Wan's lie was wrong, but it wasn't until the prequels that it became such a big deal to me. The prequels have given me the impression that most of what Obi-Wan told Luke were lies used to manipulate him into cleaning up a problem that he and the other Jedi created, i.e. Darth Vader. To me, it's like Obi-Wan and Yoda were saying, "We screwed up, so let's use his kids to kill him. We're too old to take care of the problem, so let's let them handle it. We'll tell Luke that Vader murdered his father so that if the two ever meet, Luke will be ready to kill Vader. The Skywalkers are strong with the Force, so if Luke happens to fail, we have Leia as a back-up plan. ("That boy is our last hope"..."No, There is another.") We'll use Luke as a Jedi, and if we can't get rid of the Sith that way, we'll use the Rebellion as a military force to kill them." I'm sure the mythology of the story is way beyond my understanding, and it's over my head, but I digress.

It's like Yoda and Obi-Wan were using deceit to get the job done at all costs. Mind you, I never thought of Yoda and Obi-Wan this way until after the prequels. They've gone from noble warriors to manipulating schemers to me in some respects.

I don't really care for Anakin in the prequels, but reading the debates here has made me realize that for the most part he was trying to do the best he could. The Jedi jaded me so much in the prequels that I almost wanted the Sith to win. If I were in Anakin's shoes, I would have wanted to save my mother. I don't see why he wasn't allowed too. I realize that the Jedi have rules against attachments, but it's his mother. He was attached to her long before the Jedi found him. You can't just expect a child to forget the only person they have been attached to their entire life. I think that Anakin just had a belief that family means more than anything else. I don't fault him for that. Maybe he shouldn't have been a Jedi. When he was given the chance to become a Jedi he said, "Can I go, Mom? It's what I've always wanted." or something like that. But he was a child. I thought I knew what I wanted when I was a child too. I was wrong.

What's wrong with a Jedi taking a personal break and saving his mother's life? It's true that "always in motion is the future" but Anakin didn't create a self-fulfilling prophecy concerning his mother. When he finally went to save her, she was already captured. He had no influence on that. It happened just as he had forseen. Naturally, when he began to have dreams about his wife dying in childbirth, he freaked a little. After all, he was right about his mother. But he was wrong that time. He had no way of knowing that in advance though.

I have to say again that I really don't like Anakin in the prequels. I really don't. Maybe it's the actor, maybe it's the acting. Maybe it's the story. But I don't blame Anakin for what he did. I would have done the same thing and tried to save my mother and wife. I'm sure my tale as a Jedi would have been much like Anakin's. I would have been impulsive, impatient and angry. But then, I don't have midichlorians in my blood so I can't really say what I would have done.

Midichlorians? Come on! What are you doing, George? You don't have to explain how the Force works! It's the Force! I believed it back in 1977 as soon as Obi-Wan explained it to Luke! I "got" it way back then! You don't have to tell me why it works! A human brain can't understand the Force without a symbiotic relationship? I was raised in a christian home. I understand the whole "believe without seeing" thing, George. Wow, I'm really out of control on this Midichlorian thing. (Thanks Denis!)

Anyways, my final word is this:

Because of the prequels, Obi-Wan is nothing but a liar. Almost everything he told Luke was crap. Why? He needed Luke (and possibly Leia) to clean up the mess created by the Jedi order.

Thanks for breaking the galaxy, Jedi Order!



I know it's just a movie, but I care! I care, George! Why did you do it? WHY?!

Wow. I need my medication.

[Seeker]

So the bottom line. Did Obi Wan lie? Yes Because George wanted him to so it would fit with his grand plan (The movie). And since George is GOD in the Star Wars universe Obi Wan had no choice. End of debate.


Now lets get out there and save some Spotted owls or the polar ice caps.

See above.

[huedell]

On the contrary none of those points were in the gist of the original thread. The philosophical question posed ,as seen in the movie, was more a result of the films producer and director then anything the characters did in context of the story.

If George knew he was going to make 6 movies in the future he may very well had re worded that line about Vader, Anakin and Luke so it would fit more with what you want it to say.

Remember you are not discussing a real person or real events.

There is 1. The finished movie
2. Georges original screen play, which had scenes which could
explain motivation, cut
3. Georges original ideas which were kind of fluid and changing
because they were bouncing around in his head and not on
paper.

If your post wasn't so detailed and specific explaing the thread in such
a sterile way...I'd care...and actually try to respect what it was trying
to say, and respond in that vein...otherwise, I'll stick to the interesting
conversation I was having with darklord.

Maybe you prefer to debate on what this thread is "about"...
...I'd rather just address the points darklord brought up....whether that's
okay with you or not is a different topic I'd rather not get into
more than I already have.

[Seeker]

So the bottom line. Did Obi Wan lie? Yes Because George wanted him to so it would fit with his grand plan (The movie). And since George is GOD in the Star Wars universe Obi Wan had no choice. End of debate.


Now lets get out there and save some Spotted owls or the polar ice caps.

[huedell]

Gosh this one would have George Lucas rolling his eyes. I could just see his response (ala William Shatner) "Hey Its just a story man get a life"

Fun is fun. A rousing thread is a rousing thread. Want to write a dissertation. Take a college writing class on popular movies and their effect on society.

I have a life...thank you.

And I don't like college.

Any other points?

[Seeker]

Far from it---all the examples you gave of cuts from the movies---
are decisions----keeping NEW HOPE scaled down was a decision----
the debates we're having here are based on script DECISIONS----pretty
valid to me.

On the contrary none of those points were in the gist of the original thread. The philosophical question posed ,as seen in the movie, was more a result of the films producer and director then anything the characters did in context of the story.

If George knew he was going to make 6 movies in the future he may very well had re worded that line about Vader, Anakin and Luke so it would fit more with what you want it to say.

Remember you are not discussing a real person or real events.

There is 1. The finished movie
2. Georges original screen play, which had scenes which could
explain motivation, cut
3. Georges original ideas which were kind of fluid and changing
because they were bouncing around in his head and not on
paper.

[Seeker]

Gosh this one would have George Lucas rolling his eyes. I could just see his response (ala William Shatner) "Hey Its just a story man get a life"

Fun is fun. A rousing thread is a rousing thread. Want to write a dissertation. Take a college writing class on popular movies and their effect on society.

[huedell]

I just believe in being thorough is all.

I'll shut up now.

I hope you're not letting Seeker and Vort pummel you into not
acknowledging my last "Jedi/Anakin" post

I mean---a long post after all we did already would be tiring I'll admit---

but ---a quick admission of you hating the Jedi would satisfy me fine.

[huedell]

So writting several 500 word essays on a fictional characters
fictional motivation is kind of a moot point.

Far from it---all the examples you gave of cuts from the movies---
are decisions----keeping NEW HOPE scaled down was a decision----
the debates we're having here are based on script DECISIONS----pretty
valid to me.

As far as whales dying---and the economy collapsing---
who gives a crud...I'm in love with a cute chick---and I
haven't dedicated myself to the Jedi Order----so I'm in the clear, baby!

[darklord1967]

I just believe in being thorough is all.

I'll shut up now.

[huedell]

Man. I belong to a Star Wars discussion site (theforce.net) where we sit around debating this kind of stuff in depth all day long. But the novel-length posts in this thread outstrip just about anything over there! You guys, darklord and huedell, should come join the boards at TFN and post to your heart's content. Then instead of two guys going back and forth, we'll have 10 - 20 people weighing in with their (hopefully not as long-winded! ) opinions. MTFBWY.

"It's not my fault! It's not my fault!"
--I feel like Lando or Han here

I mean I know I'm notorious for long posts...but the long posts I made here
were just to keep up with darklord....dang that boy has a lot to say about
this!

And so MUCH of it I disagree with

Thanks for the invite Vort---but I'm about ready to keel over here!

MTFBW....YOU!

[Seeker]

No he didnt add new stuff after the success of a new hope but he did have to scale a New Hope back to make a stand alone story. He has said this himself so it is not a theory. Thus he had to make the rest of the story fit.
The same issue he had with the prequels.


Like I said before star wars was a general idea in his head. Major themes and characters. The small stuff was filled in as the movies progressed unlike a several novel epic like Dune and LOTR in which everything was written out first.

But another thing is sometimes the Director does add thing he feels are relevant to the story but get cut over simple movie mechanics. IE we need to cut time to save money

Example-

In the Phantom Menace a scene was filmed and cut when Anakin was being teased by his friends over the up coming pod race and he goes ballistic and beats the crap out of Little Greedo. Lucus wanted to show Anakin had a temper and that when it comes time for the Jedi to decide whether to train him or not we should have a little doubt. Yeah maybe we shouldnt give the little hothead a light saber and teach him to crush peoples throats from a distance.

In a New Hope the scene with Lukes friends was cut. This showed insite that Luke was sort of a picked on wuss amoung his friends and that would cast doubt on his self confidence later on when Ben HAnds him a light saber and askes him to go off and save the universe.

Same with Biggs scene. Who was this guy coming up and shaking Lukes hand at the begining of the Death star battle. Why is Luke upset that a guy he just met 15 minutes ago bit the farm.

So writting several 500 word essays on a fictional characters fictional motivation is kind of a moot point.

And so the economy continues to collapse and more whales die *Sigh*

[Vortigern99]

Man. I belong to a Star Wars discussion site (theforce.net) where we sit around debating this kind of stuff in depth all day long. But the novel-length posts in this thread outstrip just about anything over there! You guys, darklord and huedell, should come join the boards at TFN and post to your heart's content. Then instead of two guys going back and forth, we'll have 10 - 20 people weighing in with their (hopefully not as long-winded! ) opinions. MTFBWY.

[huedell]

Seeker----argue with me or darklord all you like----but to think we'd drop a
subject merely because you or someone else thought it was a waste is
thinking quite much of yourself.

And re: your theory about Lucas adding all that stuff out of new cloth
----after the success of New Hope----you seem to think pretty
"black and white" about it---I disagree----as much as it's possible
he added a "LOT" (whatever THAT quantity IS)---I'll never EVER
believe all those plot things were "totally" new....it just wouldn't
make sense.

"All the sudden" Lucas got THAT ambitious with his story weaving
that he TOTALLY added ALL those plotlines without kicking
around (at least SOME of) those ideas earlier???????.....nope.

[Seeker]

As much as I am for supporting some nosense threads this is a little much. So much effort put into justifying a fictional characters fictional motives is kind of a waste.

The truth was George Lucas only had a rough draft idea running around in his head. He was not working off a story that was completely plotted out like Lord of the Rings or Dune.

When he was offered a chance to make a movie he had to pick the best chunk of his epic idea. A stand alone bit of the story. He had NO idea at the time that the movie would take off and he could add the other installments.

To that end even though A New Hope was a stand alone story he had to tie up some story lines to make it a neat little bundle.

Could you imagine the complications if you added Vader was Lukes Dad, Liea was his sister to a New Hope? This alone would have needed a ton of explaining. He had to keep it to one movies length. That is the whole reason for the small throw away line Darklord is aggonizing about.

After the movie became a hit Lucas had the oppurtunity to expand the story. He did the best he could weaving the rest of the story into the concrete cannon he had created.

Now give this thread a rest and go save some whales or fix the economy or something.