For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[huedell]

OBI Wan and Yoda must have had some faith in Luke or they never would have let him go to Bespin.
If they wanted to, they could have stopped Luke. They didn't need any official anything. They didn't WANT to stop him. Yoda was the Jedi master, Luke was his pupil. He had EVERY authority to stop him and more than enough power.

Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

Obi and Yoda did not have faith that Luke was ready to face Vader---they expressed that multiple times in ESB---the tree fight being the biggest
up til the very end when Yoda told him NOT TO GO.

This wasn't back in Anakin's day where they were teachers at a school
for "policemen" they were renegade fugitives from the law an old withered
Jedi master and a ghost. They had NO authority. AND they weren't
about to battle thier (second to) last hope so he wouldn't leave. Geesh,
I can't believe I'm typing this.

Young, inexperienced OBI Wan or Yoda, the Jedi Master training
the "Chosen One". Pretty sure Yoda would have handled Anikan differently.
Much like underacheiving kids, they need GOOD teachers. Fairly certain if it were say, a piano phenom, a tennis phenom, etc... they aren't going to hand
that kid over to a rookie let alone if said child were the "Chosen One".

Anikan's connection to other people saved him and the galaxy in the end, as
he stated to Luke. This was the point. The human connection. The Jedi
LACKED this and it was their undoing.

No. Even OBI Wan admitted he should NOT have trained Anikan. If Yoda had
trained him, as he should have, things may have turned out differently. Difficult to see the future is.

Fine...so Yoda might have been the better teacher...so what?

My point in saying that is...I'm not convinced that if Yoda
was Anakin's teacher that things would've been any different
---and even so---HYPOTHETICALLY---if Yoda being Anakin's teacher
would've been a better choice---are you gonna blame the Jedi for that too?

As far as Obi Wan saying he shouldn't have trained Anakin---well---yeah--
if my pupil turned into DARTH FREAKIN' VADER, I'd be humble enough to say
that too---no matter HOW good of a job I did.

What was Obi Wan SUPPOSED to say?
"I was the perfect teacher for Anakin. I'm so proud."?

Obi Wan worked with what he got....a selfish hothead who happened to be
the most powerful dude in the galaxy.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Where was that last thread on this Hugh or DL1967, , , as I agree with Hugh 100% and typed my rationales there and don't want to do any long typing now. . . .where the heck was that other thread!

Yeah Hugh. . . nice work. . . where do they get this stuff from!???

[huedell]

The Jedi are about helping their fellow man. So that somehow means
Anikan or Luke or Windou or any other Jedi, are not fellow men? C'mon Hue.
That's just ludicrous.

"Helping your fellow man" What thin air did you pull that out from?

The Jedi were the police force of the galaxy...as ordained by the Senate.
And just like any police force---they have codes and rules.

You just don't get it do you. You can't be a part of the police force
and then allow the problems of single policemen to screw up the fate
of the whole city....or galaxy, in the case of the Jedis.

I'll tell you what's "ludicruous"...the fact I'm debating with people who don't
understand this VERY SIMPLE aspect of what being a Jedi meant
when they were the police force of the galaxy.

The Jedi were arrogant and narrow minded and too set in the old
ways. They managed to "screw everything up" worse than Luke or Anikan
did. It was their own arrogance that allowed Palpatine to become the
Emporer.

I'd like to see you actually explain this. What in episodes I-VI would
lead you to believe that the Jedi's "arrogance" allowed Palpatine
to take control. Looks like you're reaching here.

Luke ended up saving everyone in the end. Actions. Hmm.

Luke didn't save ANYONE by going to Bespin...he DID however allow
his friends to be used as bait...put his friend's lives at risk multiple times up
to the very point where they had to go back and rescue him dangling from
the city....he also found out too early that Darth was his father, and
lost an arm while doing so.

It's typical Skywalker stupidity...but hey---we wouldn't have STAR WARS
movies without it.-----------
------------------

Where's Darklord? Hue, you guys have been doing a great job. I loved reading each post, whether I agree or not. I'd much rather talk about something like this than type. Typing is just so time consuming for me. Hence my not quoting everything.

And since I disagree so wholeheartedly with your, darklord's and whoever's posts---I'm screwed because I have an EASY answer to why I
disagree----I hate typing too---and with all respect---I feel you guys just
don't "get it".

I surely am about to stop all this as it seems a few here have it out for the
Jedis for some reason...and don't understand how rash the Skywalkers were
and how that very rashness is what caused most of the problems
and conflicts in the movies to begin with...but...like I said....there'd
be no Saga without that.....shame some posters here can't come to terms with that.

[Raydeen1]

The Jedi were arrogant and narrow minded and too set in the old ways. They managed to "screw everything up" worse than Luke or Anikan did. It was their own arrogance that allowed Palpatine to become the Emporer. Luke ran off to Bespin. Hmmm.... I don't see how that in any way screwed anything up. Luke felt his father's emotions and had time later to devise a plan that undid the Empire. Sounds like it didn't screw up things for the galaxy.

Luke ended up saving everyone in the end. Actions. Hmm.

The Jedi are about helping their fellow man. So that somehow means Anikan or Luke or Windou or any other Jedi, are not fellow men? C'mon Hue. That's just ludicrous.

OBI Wan and Yoda must have had some faith in Luke or they never would have let him go to Bespin.
If they wanted to, they could have stopped Luke. They didn't need any official anything. They didn't WANT to stop him. Yoda was the Jedi master, Luke was his pupil. He had EVERY authority to stop him and more than enough power.

Young, inexperienced OBI Wan or Yoda, the Jedi Master training the "Chosen One". Pretty sure Yoda would have handled Anikan differently. Much like underacheiving kids, they need GOOD teachers. Fairly certain if it were say, a piano phenom, a tennis phenom, etc... they aren't going to hand that kid over to a rookie let alone if said child were the "Chosen One".

Anikan's connection to other people saved him and the galaxy in the end, as he stated to Luke. This was the point. The human connection. The Jedi LACKED this and it was their undoing.

No. Even OBI Wan admitted he should NOT have trained Anikan. If Yoda had trained him, as he should have, things may have turned out differently. Difficult to see the future is.



Where's Darklord? Hue, you guys have been doing a great job. I loved reading each post, whether I agree or not. I'd much rather talk about something like this than type. Typing is just so time consuming for me. Hence my not quoting everything.

[huedell]

Look at how bad he gets fried by the Emperor before Vader intervenes. That's a lock if he refused to join him. Luke gets nuked. It is a given. And Anakin/Vader saves him, because he himself is saved by his son's love.

1) In the context of the situation Luke was in at point? I'm not so sure
The Emperor vs. Luke with the Emperor winning is a fair thing to call "a lock".
If Luke would have trusted Ben/Yoda's wisdom that scenario wouldn't
have happened until much later.

Also, you have, in that scenario, Luke trying to make a (stupid) point
that he will not fight (presumably just Vader or both---whatever)
and he basically just "gives up" in rebellion---kinda the same way
Luke threw himself down that "shaft" or whatever in Bespin after Vader told
him he was his dad and gave him the "opportunity" to join HIM...
.....same thing as the end of Jedi basically.

Ya know...
I think I'm just gonna have to call him "Suicidal Luke" from now on.

2) And Anakin saves Luke because---yes---because he is reminded of
"love". "Love" for HIS son. Told ya Anakin was a selfish bastich

[jwyblejr]

I think a better question would be did anyone in Star Wars not lie?

[MarkStalcup]

Look at how bad he gets fried by the Emperor before Vader intervenes. That's a lock if he refused to join him. Luke gets nuked. It is a given. And Anakin/Vader saves him, because he himself is saved by his son's love.

[huedell]

Okay Hugh...here's how you're wrong on that. If Luke hadn't gone to Bespin, then he may have never learned Anakin was Darth, and then he might have tried to kill Darth, succeeded, and then likely would have been killed by the Emperor had he refused to turn to the Dark Side himself. So the journey, as part of Joseph Campbell's typical journey from "The Hero With 1,000 Faces" is one where our protagonist loses something but gains knowledge and thereby can act to correct mistakes of the past.

Your idea about Luke being killed by the Emperor is too much speculation
for me to accept as a "lock".

Your Campbell point is well noted though...I can respect that...sounds sound
enough.

[MarkStalcup]

Okay Hugh...here's how you're wrong on that. If Luke hadn't gone to Bespin, then he may have never learned Anakin was Darth, and then he might have tried to kill Darth, succeeded, and then likely would have been killed by the Emperor had he refused to turn to the Dark Side himself. So the journey, as part of Joseph Campbell's typical journey from "The Hero With 1,000 Faces" is one where our protagonist loses something but gains knowledge and thereby can act to correct mistakes of the past.

[huedell]

I'll add a quote from ObiWan to Luke: "Bury your feelings deep down
Luke, theydo you credit but the could be made to serve the Emporer". He
didn't tell Luke he COULDN'T have hose feelings.

As I said in one of my earlier posts....in these scenarios...what really counts
are ACTIONS not words or thoughts.

It's nice that Luke or Anakin had good feelings for those that they loved
BUT
acting on them was percieved as "screwing everything up"----

and in both scenarios Luke....and Anakin----that's exactly what happened
when they acted on those feelings.

Following the wise Jedi advice was the RIGHT thing to do for the GALAXY
and the Skywalkers were too selfish (anti-Jedi) to do this...

The Jedi Council was right (no running off to save his mommy/or Padme)...

and...

Ben and Yoda were right (no running off to Bespin).

I have no doubt in mind this is what transpired. Jedi rules or not,
they did NOTHING to help him.

That's not what the Jedi are about...none of the other Jedi had these kinds
of connections to loved ones because they were trained young enough
and were serviant enough to the Jedi order who had goals to protect
the galaxy...not to help each other out when their mother's were kinapped
or when their wives were knocked up
(wives being not allowed in th Jedi order to begin with...Anakin!)

Was Luke told he COULDN'T go to Bespin to help Han, Leia and Chewie? NO. He was told he SHOULDN'T. Apply this to Anikan wanting to help
his mother. RIGHT there tells me the Jedi weren't all that stringent. OR, they learned from their mistakes with Anikan.

Are you kidding me? I had to laugh when I read that.

What----were Yoda and Ben going to pin Luke down so he couldn't go?

In Anakin's day, the Jedi were the police of the galaxy---they could
hold their own members more responsible for their actions through
council and action.

By the time of ESB, there was NO Jedi order to keep things together
----just a couple old Jedis pinning their hope on Luke---of
course they would've stopped him if they had any kind of officiality to
what they were doing.

And as far as what you said about someone else other than Obi wan
instructing Anakin...someone like Yoda...it wt really wouldn't
have made a difference.

Anakin was too connected to people and too selfish because of it to have
escaped the fate he fell into.

He shouldn't have been trained at all----or if he WAS to be trained maybe more
of it should been focused on not being such a selfish, rash person instead
of the choke hold

[Raydeen1]

Not going to type lengthy posts but I love Star Wars and I've ben thinking about this since last night.

Anikan was in a state of turmoil and when he went to the Jedi for help, they pushed him aside. He was in a vulnerable state and they pushed him right in to the waiting hands of Palpatine who manipulated him.

I have no doubt in mind this is what transpired. Jedi rules or not, they did NOTHING to help him.

When Luke had questions, Ben and Yoda answered him as best they could. Anikan, they basically said: "It's on a need to know basis and you don't need to know". Not those same words but the same result.

I also have a feeling Palpatine had a role in Anikan's mother's death. It was never stated but he had been manipluating him for some time. I wouldn't be surprised.

ABSOLUTELY the Jedi should have trained Anikan. However, it should NOT have been OBI Wan who did so. An older, more experienced Jedi would have been a much better choice. Mace Windu perhaps. (EDIT) Yoda should have trained "The CHosen One". NOBODY else should have. He was the be all,end all and should have been the teaher of this phenom. OBI Wan was not much older than Anikan and had only just become a Jedi. He had no business training the "Chosen One". ANother Padiwan, yes, Anikan, NO.

Had the Jedi not trained Anikan, he would have fallen to Palpatine much sooner. The Jedi didn't try nearly hard enough to keep him on the right path. Near as I can tell, they didn't really teach him anything. They were, in a nutshell, jerks to Anikan. They messed up.

I'll add a quote from ObiWan to Luke: "Bury your feelings deep down Luke, theydo you credit but the could be made to serve the Emporer". He didn't tell Luke he COULDN'T have hose feelings.
Was Luke told he COULDN'T go to Bespin to help Han, Leia and Chewie? NO. He was told he SHOULDN'T. Apply this to Anikan wanting to help his mother. RIGHT there tells me the Jedi weren't all that stringent. OR, they learned from their mistakes with Anikan.

[huedell]

Hey guys.

I guess it's filtering down to this....this "holding the Jedi responsible" for
keeping Anakin from his mother...I just don't buy it.

The Jedi had a code that worked...they couldn't make exceptions.

Anakin...bless his soul..wanted to buck the "Jedi trend" WITH his mother
WITH Padme in addition to bucking it WITH starting too old and WITH
anger for not being granted certain things he wasn't deemed deserving of
by a whole council of people older and wiser than him.

The only sensible things here would've been for Anakin to have
been humble and respectful to the Jedi order...OR for the Jedi not to ever
have agreed to train Anakin in the first place.

If the Jedi were ever guilty of ANYthing in this case...it's allowing
Anakin to be trained.

---------------------------------------

As far as what DocDrako had to say about Ben and Yoda---YES
they were using Luke to kill off Vader because they couldn't do it themselves
----but they were also doing many other thinbgs at the same time, training
him....and preparing him.

I mean...do you really think they didn't know Vader would've revealed the
truth to Luke eventually?

Yoda and Ben were "Pacing" themselves....ya know?

But...that Skywalker blood...just couldn't sit still
(Always on the move!)

Yoda, Ben and the Jedi "creating the problem that was Vader?"

Mayyyyyyybe.

AGAIN....ONLY if you subscribe to the idea that the Jedi
shouldn't have accepted Anakin/Vader into Jedi training to begin with.

[Gorn Captain]

Some great posts here, and it goes to show that you can agree to disagree, and that you don't have to bite the nose off someone who has another opinion.

Personally, I see the mistakes made by Kenobi and the jedi order NOT as a deliberate deception, but basically they showed all faults us humans have. They made mistakes, didn't own up to them, or not nearly enough, and thought of themselves that they were absolutely right about most things.
If we do that, we crash our car into something, hurt someone's feelings, etc. If Jedi do this, the universe will suffer.
I refuse to see Kenobi and Yoda as "bad persons", liars and deceivers, just people who got caught up in a poorly-handled situation. They messed up, and continued to do so.
It happens to all of us!
It's a good thing we don't have Force Powers here, imagine the mess!
I would have Force-choked so many people already!

I'm still on the side of the Jedi, even though they made terrible mistakes. Anakin not being allowed to save his mother is on them, 100%. I would have deserted the Jedi ranks long ago, and it shows how dedicated and basically a good person he was.

To me, he was still a young and easily-influenced person, who messed up. In our universe, it's kids on drugs, in the SW universe it's kids on Dark Side. Same difference.
Do we consider these kids "evil"?
Think twice before you answer.
Don't judge too quickly.
'cause we make mistakes, too.
Have you NEVER lied to anyone?
Doubtful.

And before you know it, we'll all be dressed in black leather and breathing through a skull-shaped oxygen-mask.
The human-and Jedi-condition is not so easy to judge...

One last remark: I love these longer posts. Keep them coming. If you don't enjoy them, just skip them!

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

I don't debate well, so I'm not going to. But I do want to say a couple things. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1977 and I'm still a fan. The prequels don't sit well with me, but that's mostly because I have imagined how it (the history of Darth Vader) all happened ever since 1977. George Lucas' vision of his story is not the same vision I had as a kid growing up. But then, it's his story.

Wow. I need my medication.

WOW - I LOVED this Post. Thanks Doc!

[darklord1967]

I don't debate well, so I'm not going to. But I do want to say a couple things. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1977 and I'm still a fan. The prequels don't sit well with me, but that's mostly because I have imagined how it (the history of Darth Vader) all happened ever since 1977. George Lucas' vision of his story is not the same vision I had as a kid growing up. But then, it's his story.

I've always thought that Obi-Wan's lie was wrong, but it wasn't until the prequels that it became such a big deal to me. The prequels have given me the impression that most of what Obi-Wan told Luke were lies used to manipulate him into cleaning up a problem that he and the other Jedi created, i.e. Darth Vader. To me, it's like Obi-Wan and Yoda were saying, "We screwed up, so let's use his kids to kill him. We're too old to take care of the problem, so let's let them handle it. We'll tell Luke that Vader murdered his father so that if the two ever meet, Luke will be ready to kill Vader. The Skywalkers are strong with the Force, so if Luke happens to fail, we have Leia as a back-up plan. ("That boy is our last hope"..."No, There is another.") We'll use Luke as a Jedi, and if we can't get rid of the Sith that way, we'll use the Rebellion as a military force to kill them." I'm sure the mythology of the story is way beyond my understanding, and it's over my head, but I digress.

It's like Yoda and Obi-Wan were using deceit to get the job done at all costs. Mind you, I never thought of Yoda and Obi-Wan this way until after the prequels. They've gone from noble warriors to manipulating schemers to me in some respects.

I don't really care for Anakin in the prequels, but reading the debates here has made me realize that for the most part he was trying to do the best he could. The Jedi jaded me so much in the prequels that I almost wanted the Sith to win. If I were in Anakin's shoes, I would have wanted to save my mother. I don't see why he wasn't allowed too. I realize that the Jedi have rules against attachments, but it's his mother. He was attached to her long before the Jedi found him. You can't just expect a child to forget the only person they have been attached to their entire life. I think that Anakin just had a belief that family means more than anything else. I don't fault him for that. Maybe he shouldn't have been a Jedi. When he was given the chance to become a Jedi he said, "Can I go, Mom? It's what I've always wanted." or something like that. But he was a child. I thought I knew what I wanted when I was a child too. I was wrong.

What's wrong with a Jedi taking a personal break and saving his mother's life? It's true that "always in motion is the future" but Anakin didn't create a self-fulfilling prophecy concerning his mother. When he finally went to save her, she was already captured. He had no influence on that. It happened just as he had forseen. Naturally, when he began to have dreams about his wife dying in childbirth, he freaked a little. After all, he was right about his mother. But he was wrong that time. He had no way of knowing that in advance though.

I have to say again that I really don't like Anakin in the prequels. I really don't. Maybe it's the actor, maybe it's the acting. Maybe it's the story. But I don't blame Anakin for what he did. I would have done the same thing and tried to save my mother and wife. I'm sure my tale as a Jedi would have been much like Anakin's. I would have been impulsive, impatient and angry. But then, I don't have midichlorians in my blood so I can't really say what I would have done.

Midichlorians? Come on! What are you doing, George? You don't have to explain how the Force works! It's the Force! I believed it back in 1977 as soon as Obi-Wan explained it to Luke! I "got" it way back then! You don't have to tell me why it works! A human brain can't understand the Force without a symbiotic relationship? I was raised in a christian home. I understand the whole "believe without seeing" thing, George. Wow, I'm really out of control on this Midichlorian thing. (Thanks Denis!)

Anyways, my final word is this:

Because of the prequels, Obi-Wan is nothing but a liar. Almost everything he told Luke was crap. Why? He needed Luke (and possibly Leia) to clean up the mess created by the Jedi order.

Thanks for breaking the galaxy, Jedi Order!



I know it's just a movie, but I care! I care, George! Why did you do it? WHY?!

Wow. I need my medication.

Extremely well put, DD. I think you do yourself a disservice when you say you are not a good debater.

Although, I must say, I'm not nearly as anti-prequel as you are (I LOVED all three films, and I really liked Hayden Christensen's portrayal of Anakin Skywalker).

But I think the point that many people miss about George Lucas' intentions with the Prequel films is that in many ways he was trying to turn everything you thought you knew about the STAR WARS universe on its ear.

It is a philosophical experiment.

What happens to your viewpoint of the galaxy's 2nd worst monster when you discover that he was basically a brave, loyal, decent, but flawed, brash, angry and frightened young man who was manipulated into making the horrible mistake that transformed him into Darth Vader?

What happens to you opinion of the virtuous Jedi Knights when you discover that many of their teachings (during the days of the Prequel films / Old Republic) actually contradict the Jedi principles stated in the OT? It's really hard to rectify the OT's "Search you feelings", "Trust your feelings", "Reach out with your feelings" approach to Jedi instruction, versus the Prequels' presentation of "A jedi shall not know attachment, possesssion or love".

Fundementally, much of what we thought we knew about the ways of the Jedi from the OT films were somewhat inaacurate. That's probably because the picture that we got of the Jedi and their philosophy were presented by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda.

But they are only two Jedi. And to complicate matters further, they each have unique differing viewpoints of what it is to be a Jedi.

The prequels showed us that the Jedi were many things... not just what we thought they were from Yoda and Kenobi's OT descriptions.

This is key.

We learned that not everything about the Jedi were so virtuous or perfect. They were flawed too. They made mistakes too. They were guilty of vanity and pride and stubborn tradition... all of which contributed to their fall.

Don't misunderstand me. I am NOT anti-Jedi (despite what my debate partner Huedell might think). And I most certainly I am NOT pro-Sith.

I think the Sith are evil, vile, selfish, destructive, amd horrible individuals... including Darth Vader.

But I also feel that the full picture we've now been given demonstrates that the Jedi were not nearly as virtuous as they seemed from the OT. We've seen that they had a lot of bad qualities and overly-rigid beliefs that contributed to a lot of disharmony.

Their intentions were good. But the results of their actions and archaic beliefs sometimes weren't.

Lastly, let me just say that I don't have any of the same issues as some of you with George Lucas' introduction of the concept of Midichlorians.

To me, this was just another newly revealed facet of an old concept (The Force) that was originally presented in the OT.

It was the (brief) exploration of the idea that virtually all of the "mystical" and magical mysteries of the universe are merely phenomena that have not been scientifically observed, documented, etc.

To me, The Force is no less powerful or magical or mystical because of the introduction of the concept of Midichlorians.

Midochlorians are NOT The Force itself.

As Qui-Gon Ginn explained, Midichlorians are only microscopic organisms that basically provide the LIVING LINK between individuals and The Force itself.

As symbiotic organisms within their host body they continually communicate The Will of The Force to the host.

I think of midichlorians as a physical microscopic representation of the human phsyche... intuition... the human instinct... continuously whispering in your ear how to proceed through life.

There is a definitive "right and wrong" (or more to the point, a "lightness and a darkness) that resides within that nebulous energy field that formed and continues to expand the universe... The Force.

But that nebulous Force itself has no preference between the light and the dark sides. They just exist. They just... are.

"Preferences" only come from individuals who tap into that energy, and select the way they choose to utilize it... for constructive, cooperative, helpful purposes... or for selfish, destructive, non-inclusive purposes.

An individual (through the gift of free-will) can choose which aspect of The Force (light or dark) to embrace.