Do You Believe in Ghosts?

[toys2cool]

Just finished watching that Ghost haunting show on the discovery channel,man that's good stuff

[darklord1967]

This is all very exciting speculation, and I look forward to reading Cavalos' conclusions. However, there is no evidence at hand that anything of the kind is actually going on -- no space/time compressor engines, no machines capable of harnessing tremendous amounts of electro-magnetic energy, not even parts to such machines that may be indentified as such.

Um... actually you're wrong. There IS evidence. The tremendous amounts of electromagnetic residue and disturbance that have been measured at the locations of observed extra-terrestrial craft landing sites, plus the documented cases of electrical appliances ceasing all function (automobile engines, radio static, etc) indicate craft with powerful electro-magnetic propulsion systems. This is no different than the ceasing of all electrical appliances during an EM pulse from, say, the detonation of an atomic device.

As for space-time compression, abductee accounts (which you largely dismiss) are rife with accounts of craft that are tiny on the outside but ENORMOUS on the inside. There are accounts of observed craft that literally appear to stretch and change shape as they accelerate at tremendous velocities and simply vanish into "pockets of empty air".

This is speculation, and it is exciting, but what you have here is a hypothesis that remains untested under the scientific method. Until evidence or results emerge that makes this hypothesis a theory, it will remain speculation.

Wrong again. Scientific calculations and EXPERIMENTS are already underway with tachyons and sub-atomic particles that travel at incredible velocities. They have been observed SCIENTIFIALLY to "vanish" from one occupied point in space and time and INSTANTANEOUSLY (relative to themselves) appearing in another space at a different point in time (usually moments later).

Scientific experiments have also been conducted regarding the compression of space-time through electromagnetic forces.

It is scientifically understood that the Earth itself contains inherent pockets of concentrated electromagnetic energy at key locations. These "hot-spots" are often areas of enormous numbers of documented paranormal phenomenon cases. One such location is the area known as the "Bermuda Triangle". The violent, random electromagnetic storms that crop up over that body of water have wreaked havoc on planes and ships for years.

And cases of electromagnetic windows (wormholes) randomly opening up and revealing different spaces or time periods beyond are rare and unpredictable by they have occurred.

[darklord1967]

Why should we conclude that what the Mayans, Mesopotamians and Columbian explorers saw were alien spacecraft?

Far enough. My point is why should we automatically conclude that what they saw were automatically NOT alien craft, particularly when these ancient phenomenon were observed to be performing under intelligent control (Re: changing course, hovering etc.)

Ancient peoples also had stories of giants and dragons forming the world from their body parts, and heroes flying on winged sandals: should we credit these, too, as tales of extraterrestrial intervention in human affairs?

No we shouldn't. However, the difference is that these ancient anecdotes you describe have no modern scientifically observed equivalent. The phenomenon of ancient Extra-terrestrial visitation to this planet does.

Are all tales of gods and fantastic deeds actually stories of alien escapades in disguise -- or just some of them? Who decides which myths and legends are "really" about aliens visiting the earth, and which are the products of the human psyche searching for answers to the mysteries of creation and astronomical phenomena?

Well that's the point. We don't know if it is all or some. Therefore, I (and others who are like-minded) believe that it is wrong to simply label people crazy or hoaxsters simply because what they proport to have observed has not been scientifically confirmed.

I say again: History is full of people who were ridiculed in this way for their observations only to have time and science catch up to them and confirm the truth of their "fantastic" observations.

It seems to me that folklorists and mythologists have a far better understanding of these matters than UFO enthusiasts and paranormal researchers, and their conclusions do not bear out such imaginative speculations.

Here we shall have to agree to disagree.

As to modern accounts of alien abduction, I've read many. I've also exprerienced the state between dream and wakefulness, when one's limbs are paralyzed inside the dream but one can see the surrounding room in real life, and shades and figures of nightmare emerge from the otherwise real walls, shapes and shadows. This is a real physiological event, documented many times in sleep laboratories, which seizes the mind in the interim between dream and reality. It explains probably 90% of alien abduction stories. The other 10% or so is outright hoaxing, wild tales bent on attention and following in the mold of the stories that have come before it and that have been presented in the media.

This is YOUR theory and you're welcome to it. But it in NO WAY fully explains all the details of that phenomena (Re: Identical world-wide impants, and body markings, multiple-simultaneous witnesses), and it dismisses the vast number of scientifically-studied cases (Re; Betty and Barney Hill separately recounting their shared experience through hypnosis-regression therapy)

Furthermore you attribute virtually 100% of all abduction cases to your "earthly" explanations of sleep phenomena and hoaxes, leaving no room at all for even the possibility of anything else. Not even the scientific community that you hold in such high regard would do this. And thankfully, in the case of alien abductions, they have not. The phenomena HAS gotten scientific attention and study precisely because TOO many cases have been reported and documented that rule out the explanations you offer above.

Anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence. You are welcome to accept it in your own search to grasp the world around you, but it cannot be accepted ina scientific study because it is prone to error, misapprehension and fraud.

Scientific "evidence" BEGINS first as "anecdotal" observations of mis-understood organisms or phenomena by average individuals which are then studied, learned from, and revealed within the scientific community by "trained professionals" .

The phenomena of extra-terrestrial visitation and human abduction fits all of these critera. It is just NOT readily accepted by some because of its continued "paranormal" status due mostly to stringent govenment denials.

But the fact remains MANY UFO researchers and investigators are respected SCIENTISTS in their own right.

Furthermore, "Trained professionals" have observed extra-terrestrial craft in our skies and oceans FOR YEARS. Policemen. Military, fighter, and commercial pilots. Professionals all. We trust them with so much. Yet we are ready to ridicule them and say that their collective eyes deceive them when they see and experience something that simply does not exist within our known technological capabilities. Do you think that an orbiting astronaut does NOT know the difference between a meteor skipping off the atmosphere of our planet and a SAUCER SHAPED craft the he has observed buzzing his own module at tremendous speed that then radically changing course (actual example)? Gimme a break.

Seems to me like you're only willing to accept the word of a trained professional so long as their observations and conclusions don't violate your own personal belief system.

[megocrazy]

Not if those extra-terrestrial beings were advanced enough to develop a form of propulsion that does NOT travel through space in a linear way.

Yes, the closest star IS two light years away traveling at the (scientifically accepted) impossible speed of light.

I have to agree. It's only impossible to imagine if you look at it from our side of the technological view. Suppose the "aliens" in question are 3000 years older than we are. How far advanced from today do you think we'll be in 3000 years? We can already send an unmanned ship several planets away. Not to mention the human race has pretty much delayed itself in advancing technologically for years. The almighty dollar has caused many to not look forward but soak as much profit out of something until it is exausted. In 1969 we put an electric car on the moon, yet after almost 40 years of technological advancement we still don't have one in use on our highways in any large capacity, and we're all paying $4 a gallon for fossil fuel. It could handle the terrain of the moon, but not our nice paved highways? We use solar energy to power satellites in space but still don't see the everyday items we use taking advantage of something that costs nothing to receive. If they could regulate sunshine and charge you for it, there would be a solar panel on every house in the world. I believe that a civilization that does not operate on a money scale, would be far more advanced in the same time span than one that does. Like us. $$ advances all aspects of our society. Wether it's industrial or technological business, the space race or the arms race, if it is done it's to make a dime or control power. A civilization based on a non profit idea, with no war between each other would probably be far more advanced than we are in the same amount of time. But again that seems impossible from our side of the view, because war and profit are all we've ever known.

[Vortigern99]

...if a race of beings were so advanced as to harness tremendous amounts of energy that they could actually compress space/time 4th dimensionally, then they could travel through this warped/bent realm at a conventional speed and arrive at their destination in a reasonable amount of time. It would sort of be like riding a wave on a surfboard.

Scientists have been looking at these implications for YEARS and have determined them to be scientifically FEASIBLE given the correct amount of energy and electro-magnetic control. It IS possible. However it is only un-likely at OUR current technological level of understanding.

I highly recommend the writtings of noted physicist and Columbia U instructor Jeanne Cavalos.

This is all very exciting speculation, and I look forward to reading Cavalos' conclusions. However, there is no evidence at hand that anything of the kind is actually going on -- no space/time compressor engines, no machines capable of harnessing tremendous amounts of electro-magnetic energy, not even parts to such machines that may be indentified as such. This is speculation, and it is exciting, but what you have here is a hypothesis that remains untested under the scientific method. Until evidence or results emerge that makes this hypothesis a theory, it will remain speculation.

[Adam West]

I am also agnostic when it comes to ghosts.

The only real experience I had was in High School...my best friend had a sick mother who was dying from a rare illness. It wasn't unusual for me to fall asleep with the radio on, wake up in the middle of the night, turn it off and go back to sleep.

It happened one night but when I rolled over to turn the radio off, I saw a small shadow figure pull the cord from the wall...and I almost pooped my pants. The next morning, when I woke up, I looked over at the radio to see if I was just having a dream but the cord was pulled from the radio just as I saw. I also found out that my best friend's mother died that very night almost exactly at the same time I remember waking up to turn off the radio.

It's creepy but in retrospect, I was asleep and only half awake when I saw what happened. I could have just had a dream and it is possible that in my dream the radio was on but really wasn't. The only weird part of it all was that my friend's mother did really die at the same time I saw or dreamed what happened which might have just been mere coincidence.

[megocrazy]

Ghosts/Spirits however you want to define it. I definately believe they exist. UFO's also. I agree that we would be quite naive to think we are the only living beings in the galaxy and we aren't really all that far from being able to inhabit the moon if they really wanted to. I do believe once they break the need to worry about gravity(ie: launching a space vehicle from a low gravity location like the moon), that great strides will be taken in space travel, if they wish to. Many of the issues that they've had with the space shuttle missions deal directly with items needed to break the gravitational pull of the earth. Booster rockets would not be needed on a ship leaving from a low pull orbit, and the foam blocks that fall off regularly would not be an issue as they would not be needed if you were not reentering earth atmosphere. They will need to source a reusable form of energy, like solar would probably be the most logical as we can go anywhere we can see the sun and have power. That's a pretty big area to cover. Then we can go find all the aliens and take there cool saucers and fly around like the Jetson's do. Now that would be cool!

[Vortigern99]

Good heavens, I've been resarching this topic since the late 70s. I'm just drawing different conclusions from you. There have been celestial phenomena -- meteor showers, comets, lunar and solar eclipses -- since ancient times, thousands of years before human beings had developed the scientific principles (Gallilean astronomy, Newtonian physics) and technologies (telescopes, an accurate model of the solar system) to understand what they were seeing, much less depict it realistically on a cave painting or a stone carving. Why should we conclude that what the Mayans, Mesopotamians and Columbian explorers saw were alien spacecraft? Ancient peoples also had stories of giants and dragons forming the world from their body parts, and heroes flying on winged sandals: should we credit these, too, as tales of extraterrestrial intervention in human affairs? Where does it end? Are all tales of gods and fantastic deeds actually stories of alien escapades in disguise -- or just some of them? Who decides which myths and legends are "really" about aliens visiting the earth, and which are the products of the human psyche searching for answers to the mysteries of creation and astronomical phenomena? It seems to me that folklorists and mythologists have a far better understanding of these matters than UFO enthusiasts and paranormal researchers, and their conclusions do not bear out such imaginative speculations.

As to modern accounts of alien abduction, I've read many. I've also exprerienced the state between dream and wakefulness, when one's limbs are paralyzed inside the dream but one can see the surrounding room in real life, and shades and figures of nightmare emerge from the otherwise real walls, shapes and shadows. This is a real physiological event, documented many times in sleep laboratories, which seizes the mind in the interim between dream and reality. It explains probably 90% of alien abduction stories. The other 10% or so is outright hoaxing, wild tales bent on attention and following in the mold of the stories that have come before it and that have been presented in the media. Anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence. You are welcome to accept it in your own search to grasp the world around you, but it cannot be accepted ina scientific study because it is prone to error, misapprehension and fraud.

[darklord1967]

I do not suggest that we are the only planet in the universe on which life has evolved; far from it. But given the vast distances involved, and the Einsteinian principles that dictate we cannot move anywhere near the speed of light (at which rate even the closest star would be 2 light years of travel away), it is extremely improbable that extraterrestrial beings could visit our world, and vice versa.

Not if those extra-terrestrial beings were advanced enough to develop a form of propulsion that does NOT travel through space in a linear way.

Yes, the closest star IS two light years away traveling at the (scientifically accepted) impossible speed of light.

However, if a race of beings were so advanced as to harness tremendous amounts of energy that they could actually compress space/time 4th dimensionally, then they could travel through this warped/bent realm at a conventional speed and arrive at their destination in a reasonable amount of time. It would sort of be like riding a wave on a surfboard.

Scientists have been looking at these implications for YEARS and have determined them to be scientifically FEASIBLE given the correct amount of energy and electro-magnetic control. It IS possible. However it is only un-likely at OUR current technological level of understanding.

I highly recommend the writtings of noted physicist and Columbia U instructor Jeanne Cavalos.

[Sideshow Spock]

It can't?

[megoscott]

Sorry, I should say my dad saw a flying saucer when he was a kid...in Roswell.

[darklord1967]

Of course "UFOs" are real: Unidentified Flying Objects. People see them all the time. I've seen a few myself. It doesn't mean they're alien spacecraft, or any other explanation that involves the supernatural or extraterrestrial. With all of the aircraft, satellities, weather balloons, and covert military operations going on in the skies above us, it's a wonder there aren't more documented cases.

There were no earth-based "... aircraft, satellities, weather balloons, and covert military operations..." during the ancient time of the Mayans or Mesopitamians. Yet through cave drawings and historical writings, they depict strange craft in their skies and un-usual looking beings piloting them.

There were also no "... aircraft, satellities, weather balloons, and covert military operations..." in our skies during the time of Cristopher Columbus' journey to the "New World". Yet his ship's logs are FULL of documented encounters with "circular, saucer-shaped" lights buzzing the skies above his ships during his voyage.

Its like I said, I don't doubt you're right that some of these close-encounter observations have an Earthly explanation. But not all of them. And too many people throughout the WORLD have told the EXACT same stories about encounters with highly intelligent beings that ARE NOT HUMAN. Too many people throughout the world have had stange markings left on their bodies after proported medical examinations. Too many people have had identical metallic implants left embedded in their nasal cavities or eye sockets.

Do some research on-line. You'll be shocked by what you find when you dig deep.

Look up the cases of abductees Betty and Barney Hill or mountain logger Travis Walton from Snowflake Az.

Read up on the case of police officer Lonnie Zamora.

I'm telling you, it can't ALL be a figment of someone's imagination, or mis-identified phenomena.

[Vortigern99]

I agree with Hardy Girl. I have yet to see anything on any TV show, photograph or youtube video that constitiutes real evidence of ghostly phenomena. Photographic double images, the brain's tendency to see patterns where none exist, and obvious hoaxing explain every piece of film or video ever put forward.

[SUP-Ronin]

As long as they don't wander the earth looking for Me, I am not too worried about .

[HardyGirl]

Spirits, yes. Ghosts, no. The difference is, one is the essence of who we are, and the other is something someone made up to scare people. I don't believe that they go wandering the Earth searching for closure like on "Ghost Whisperer", although that makes for great entertainment.