School Uniforms, Mandatory or Not?

[nvmbrsdoom5]

I've never really understood exactly what uniforms and dress code really accomplish. Teachers still have to "police" the kids to make sure they're wearing the appropriate things and not breaking the rules. I can understand rules like making sure they're not wearing clothes that are ill-fitting or have inappropriate slogans on them, they had these rules back in my day and sure they had to enforce those rules now and then on some kids but it wasn't a big deal. Perhaps for some people you save money if you only have to buy school clothes but....those kids are STILL going to want to buy the "cool clothes" to wear for when they're not in school anyhow. So now you have to buy school uniform clothes AND "after-school clothes". I never saw any evidence that uniforms really greatly impacted the number of fights or prejudice kids had towards each other. They will still break off into their own clicks and get categorized as jocks, geeks, weirdos, etc., it's just what kids do unfortunately. I think an important lesson to be learned during those formative years is learning to accept people who look differently than you do, and that is a hard enough lesson to teach these kids as it is. Once you start strongly enforcing that code of "everyone should look the same, don't walk outside the lines" mentality on kids, you risk making them more intolerant of people who are different. Kids become disruptive with each other due to their look only because they haven't learned the lesson of tolerance and acceptance of people who are different from themselves, and making them just all dress the same isn't really teaching them that lesson.

[generic]

Although some of the negative reactions to uniforms on this thread do come from people who actually wore them, most of the negativity towards uniforms seems to come from people who didn't wear uniforms. Most of the people who have said they wore them didn't seem to mind. I just think that's interesting.

Also, it seems like two of the arguments against uniforms involve the cost of buying them and the crushing of individuality, neither of which ever seemed to be a problem when I was in school - The popular kids were still popular, the dorks were still dorks - Individuality was successfully preserved regardless of my shirt. But there hasn't been any mention of the idea that the uniforms were to help prepare you for white-collar work where (at the time, anyway) you would have been expected to wear a suit and tie every day. If white-collar work isn't where these kids are headed, think about the uniforms required for restaurant and retail jobs. I think at least part of the idea of wearing uniforms is to get kids used to the idea that, yeah, you actually do have to compromise your individuality sometimes.

Nope, this isn't the USSR. We do still have our freedom (at least this week we do), but as far as I'm concerned, a kid's freedom only goes as far as his or her parents allow. Until someone is 18, I think they should still be learning how to behave in the world. It is my opinion that all of the "freedoms" that have been given to kids over the last couple of decades are a lot closer to "neglect" and those childhood "freedoms" / "lack of discipline" have not led this country in a positive direction. I believe that in order to make intelligent decisions as a free adult, you need to be taught how to behave in civilized society as a child. I realize that this idea goes beyond the topic of uniforms (and possibly crosses into the touchy subject of politics for some people), but I think that it is all part of the same line of thought. I'm not arguing that uniforms should be required, but I don't think they are a bad idea and I certainly don't think they are evil.

[HardyGirl]

I never had to wear uniforms, but I am definitely FOR them, not against them. See my previous post. When I was in the Bahamas some years back, the teenagers there seemed to think that American kids were "silly" for not wearing uniforms, b/c it's the ways it's always been for them. If that were the case here in the U.S. , this wouldn't be an issue. It's not an issue for cops, or doctors, or mail carriers or bus drivers, or any other profession that requires uniforms. No one is taking away their individuality. You will always have your own opinions, methods, traditions and lifestyles. A uniform doesn't take that away. And there are programs for families who can't afford the uniforms, second hand stuff an all. As far as 2 sets of clothes...I never wore uniforms, but I had school clothes and after school I had to change into my play clothes.

[Joe90]

Uniforms,I wore them.white shirt, gray pants & tie, black or brown shoes
money not an issue when i see low income family kids having 50-75 dollars sneakers ,designer jeans, Hillfinger shirts

Well said. Every study done on school uniforms show that the school wear is in fact less expensive than the "regular" high priced items kids wear these days. Many schools even dictate what brand of shoes are acceptable to wear in order to rule out kids wearing high priced designer labels on their feet. The whole point in the uniform is to level the playing field -- everybody wears the same item.

[ctc]

>But there hasn't been any mention of the idea that the uniforms were to help prepare you for white-collar work

Yeah there has; in all the refrences to individuality snuffing/soul crushing/etc.

>The whole point in the uniform is to level the playing field

....ideally; but it really doesn't. There's always a way of showing affluence; all organisms of breeding age do it.

Don C.

[EmergencyIan]

I never had to wear a uniform to school.

I went to public school from Kindergarten thru the 1st grade, then it was onto Luthern School thru the first half of the 6th grade and back to public school thru the end of high school.


- Ian

[Joe90]

>But there hasn't been any mention of the idea that the uniforms were to help prepare you for white-collar work

Yeah there has; in all the refrences to individuality snuffing/soul crushing/etc.

Dang! You've been reading my mail!

>The whole point in the uniform is to level the playing field

....ideally; but it really doesn't. There's always a way of showing affluence; all organisms of breeding age do it.

Don C.

Until their individuality is snuffed out and their soul is crushed? Or is conspicuous consumption an identifier of being a Zombie?

[ctc]

>Until their individuality is snuffed out and their soul is crushed?

“They’re even blinking in sync! I love that sound!”
-Principal Skinner

Individuality is a funny thing. Some folks have touched on it here, and I saw it when I was in school: that kids all dressed pretty much the same, uniforms or not. Everyone THINKS they’re unique; most people aren’t.

To that end, I think the uniforms didn’t achieve anything; since my peers already possessed amazing subliminally learned ability to differentiate each other within very narrowly defined parameters. I’d often suspected their decrying of a dress code was based on it being an uncomfortable pattern, rather than any true stifling of individuality.

Don C.

[LOU]

School, like a job at McDonalds or a lawyer firm, is NOT about expressing yourself. School is to learn, not model the latest fashions. I am completely in favor of a dress code, not necessarily uniforms, but a dress code. School should be treated like job for a kid, not a catwalk to show off the latest fashion trend. Just like most jobs, a uniform or some type of dress code is almost ALWAYS included in every employee handbook. Having said that, school is also supposed to prepare a child for the "real world" and presumably that includes a decent job. Most jobs have some type of dress code, if you work at Burger King, you have to wear a paper hat on your head and a tacky shirt. If you're a lawyer you need to wear a suit. Therefore, uniforms and/or dress codes prepare children for what is expected of them in the "real world" in terms of when it's okay to "express yourself" and when it isn't. I love Def Leppard but I'm not about to walk into church or work with my Def Leppard concert shirt on. Yet I guarantee you I could find one kid who DOES have blue jeans and a concert shirt on at church...and 10 to 1 he has no concept of a dress code at school. This is not a good thing.
Not only that but there are some families who do not have $100 to buy their kid a pair of designer jeans. Undoubtedly such things play a role in a child's accpetance by their peers, as we know, because you have to be "hip" and "cool" to be accepted. With uniforms, a poor family's child and a rich family's child are dressed the same way and kids are therefore not distracted by the name-brand tags on Suzy Smith's pants. School is about learning and everything we can do to keep our kids focused on that, we should do. In my opinion, this includes the elimination of fashion competition and distractions; which pretty much is one of the staples of teenage behaviors as you parents well know.

[kingdom warrior]

I actually switched from Catholic to a public highschool because I didn't want to wear a uniform. It was a bit like moving to a new town, I had zero friends but I now consider that a huge point of growth in my life.


However, when I was 20 I dated a high school senior and I must admit, I was pro Catholic highschool uniform then...

I did too GO Catholic High school Girls!!!!!!!

[Adam West]

I am against school uniforms (at public schools). All of the arguments are not new ones.

I also understand the dress code argument about work (etc.). One big difference though is that one can choose to take a job with a dress code or work somewhere else where it is more relaxed. Children by law have to attend school. There are choices parents make about private, public, or home school but that's why I have a problem comparing school dress codes to work dress codes.

As someone else already stated, most kids generally wear the same clothes where I live. I also might be the exception but there is a Goodwill shop close by that sells those exact brand clothes, gently used for $2 or something. They might be last year's Hollister shirt but at least as best as I can tell, kids don't taunt each other by wearing last hears Hollister logo vs. this year.

I also make it clear as to what is acceptable and non-acceptable attire. If my kids don't like it....tough.

One comment my daughter made just the other day which made me think of what a dumb P.C. society we have become is that kids are now allowed to wear clothing with pictures of weapons on them. I didn't even know this was a rule. There school mascot is a Knight and their new logo shows a knight with a sword....so they are now allowed to wear shirts with weapons or they would never be allowed to wear a shirt with their school mascot. I just rolled my eyes and said "So I guess if someone was a big Tampa Bay Bucaneers fan, they wouldn't be allowed to wear a replica jersey...huh?" Again, it's all about the spirit of the rule and not the rule. There are always going to be the few rotten apples who will wear a ridiculous shirt displaying a weapon with some dumb slogan but all the kids are now forced to obey the rules because of a few outliers who should be dealt with individually.

[Mikey]

Not only that but there are some families who do not have $100 to buy their kid a pair of designer jeans. Undoubtedly such things play a role in a child's accpetance by their peers, as we know, because you have to be "hip" and "cool" to be accepted. .

Very true,
I still remember through most of my grade school years there was a student like that.
He used to mostly wear old ripped pants and shirts .. It was no secret his family was extra poor.
The kids used to always call him dirt-bag - to his face.
They did it so often for so long of a time (years) the nickname grew to be not even an insult anymore and just a nickname like any other.
Very sad...
Kids can be so mean

[nvmbrsdoom5]

I gotta be honest.....I don't think anything good is going to come from this thread. When people start bringing up stuff like what you should/shouldn't wear to church and the like, that starts really pushing buttons (like mine) and it's gonna start getting ugly here, I'm sorry....

[LOU]

I gotta be honest.....I don't think anything good is going to come from this thread. When people start bringing up stuff like what you should/shouldn't wear to church and the like, that starts really pushing buttons (like mine) and it's gonna start getting ugly here, I'm sorry....

Well no one is saying anyone has to agree with it, heck I'm more on your train of thought too, but the facts are, there are outfits that people in general will consider inappropriate in certain situations, whether you and I like it or not. That's not an opinion of mine or anyone elses, it's a fact. If a kid walks into a church with a Judas Priest shirt on, most people will consider that unacceptable. It sucks, but it's 100% true. That's not to say you and I can't disagree with them or their opinions...we are certainly are entitled to, but it doesn't change the fact that a majority of people would consider that inapproproate. That's what I was predicating my comments on, the fact of what is socially acceptable by the great majority, it is not just an opinion of mine. But certainly you can say they are all wrong and disagree with them, but the "shoulds and shouldn'ts", as you call them, are dictated by our society as a whole and are undeniable...most people would consider a concert shirt in church unacceptable...fact. We don't agree with the majority, and that's just fine, but it's our opinion and we're the minority. But it doesn't change the fact that 90% of parishoners would look down on the attire. I don't have children but I assure you my child would not be taught to "fashionably express yourself" in places where it's not appropriate, regardless of what my personal opinion dictates. My child would have on a nice pair of pants and shirt in church, or they would stay home and crank Judas Priest all day long. I don't want my kid getting hairy eyeballs from people his whole life, and like it or not, and whether he "should" or "shouldn't", is irrelevant to the fact that he WILL if he doesn't adhere to socially acceptable standards. Now me personally? Well, as I alluded to, I personally wouldn't care if I saw some kid with a concert shirt on in church. I wouldn't agree with it 100%, but I wouldn't say I'd be steadfastly one of the 90% I mention above because I probably wouldn't be. Like you, for me personally it's not that big a deal, but at the same time I accept that it IS a big deal to a majority of people in the enviroment I am willingly entering. Would you carry rosary beads into a Jewish synagogue just because your Catholic? No, you are entering their environment and likewise you should repect the accompanying environmental standards...or don't enter the environment. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. You certainly can't say that the Romans must accept what you do however. If you want a job, don't show up to the interview in blue jeans because a majority of people consider that unaccpetable and unless it's a construction job or something, I can pretty much guarantee you'd still be looking for work. Now this is coming from me, a guy who spends his life in faded blue jeans and a t-shirt. I'd love to wear them everywhere, but I can't. It's not "socially acceptable" in some situations. Another example is someone showing up to a loved one's wake with a bright yellow and red outfit on...most people in that funeral parlor would be mumbling as soon as the person walked in. But again, I, like you, would instead be looking at it like the person took the time to come and pay respects and I could care less what she's wearing. But sadly we are forced to adhere to social standards when it comes to attire, it sucks, but that's just the way it is and our children need to learn this or people will look down upon them and they will be flipping burgers at McDonald's their whole life. There's a reason you see kids with purple hair and piercings all over their bodies working at gas stations and grocery stores instead of banks and offices. There's a reason why there's dress codes to jobs forbidding visible tattoos and "unusual" (gotta' love that term!) piercings. One girl I worked with at the bank had a piercing on her eye, nose, and lip. When she was asked to remove them during her shift, she refused citing "freedom of expression." The girl was terminated 5 days later for violation of dress code. The last time I saw her she was woking at a kiosk in the mall. She had a great job, making more money than most people her age, had a cush job that saw her off every weekend, and had a TON of advancement opportunities that would have been available to her at a very young age...she actually was one of the best tellers I have ever had on shift with me. But because she didn't understand that "freedom of expression" is not a full-time right in this world, she is now at a dumpy job with no future. But she still had those piercings in...question is, was it really worth it? Was her future success and wealth worth standing up to a social standard that she didn't believe in? Some may say yes, but I say no. You're not going to change the mechanics of the machine of society. Right or wrong, if you can't beat 'em, you HAVE to join them, Anything short of that and you are severely limiting future opportunities for happiness.

Now why I am using church as an example, especially since I can't remember the last time I set foot in one, I don't know. But the reason I wouldn't be part of that afrorementioned 90% majority in the church situation is because I see it as hypocritical. We are taught that God loves us no matter what, so my thinking is, does He then really give a hoot what I am wearing? I would look at it from the perspective that the kid took the time to come to church to begin with, which would gain my admiration, regardless of his outfit. So I am just speaking from the perspective of the genreal public as a whole. I guess I'm saying, it sucks that this is the status quo, but it is and we are forced to raise our children accordingly. Just like they need to be taught when to say something and when not to; or when to do something and when not to, they also need to be taught when to wear something and when not to. If we let them go to school dressed like bums, what's going to happen when Burger King hands them their little paper hat and how will they respond? Like the poor girl from my bank? That is the question at hand here and I say there is no harm at all in teaching children that there's a time for leisure dress and there's a time for business dress...and to a child, school most definitely should be a business to them well before a leisure activity. Ironically I live right next to a school, I can see it out my back window, and let me tell ya'...half these kids look like thugs. Not appropriate in a learning enviroment which should be as sterile as possible when it comes to outside distractions. Once again, I want my kid paying attention to the academics, not the Tommy Hilfiger tags on her friend's clothes.

[nvmbrsdoom5]

I hear what you're saying Lou, I realise you're not saying that you necessarily have these prejudices yourself towards people who dress a certain way and so forth, you're just pointing out what tends to be the standard attitude out there with alot of people. I get that.

Teaching kids at an early age to wear uniforms and dress within a standard accepted norm does indeed help them prepare for the real world, where that mindset continues on into the job market and other areas of life.

Problem is, in my opinion, the "real world" stinks, at least in that respect, because people give into that idea that it's ok to judge people by how the look and use it against them, whether it's by looking down upon them or going as far as refusing to hire them because of it. This mentality of "if you can't beat them then you HAVE to join them" is what has always made my heart sink, because people shouldn't have to change themselves just to please other people's prejudices. Most people I think will acknowledge that judging people that way isn't fair, but they kinda shrug and say, "Oh well, that's just how it is, guess we just gotta deal with it." I understand fully the need for uniforms and dress code in some lines of work, especially when it has to do with physical safety or health code stuff. But there's still alot of unfair, unreasonable discrimination out there in the job field, based on how people look and less about how good they'd be at their job or how decent of a person they actually are.

Perhaps, over time, these kinds of prejudices might gradually lessen and go away, but the only way that will occur is if people are taught to become more tolerant and understanding of people who are different than they are, and realise that just because someone has a style that differs from the norm, doesn't mean that makes them a freak or a bad person.

I realise that making kids wear uniforms isn't the root of all evil here, and isn't necessarily the main reason why people are intolerant and prejudiced, but it's just one more thing that adults are doing that, to my mind, is slowing down the process of society learning to become more tolerant of one another. If a kid likes to wear his hair a certain way, dress a certain way, etc. because it's who they are, and they get picked on or "distract" the other kids because of it, that kid is viewed as being the one in the wrong, and told to look more "normal".....rather than trying to emphasize the lesson of tolerance and understanding to the other kids. Generally it seems to me that the more people are exposed to something, and come to realise that it's not a big deal after all, they accept it and it no longer becomes an issue. So often I see and hear these stories about kids being picked on for stuff like this and it stinks, but what bothers me most is that the kids who do the picking/bullying are not really taught that their prejudice is wrong, instead the adults would rather that the other kid just conform to what the bully thinks is "cool" or ok and then there you go, problem solved...?!?!?!

And my point of the whole "what to wear in church" thing being a problematic subject to discuss here is because we're walking that fine line here on the forum of staying out of religion/politics, etc. And I don't want to cause a ruckuss here or upset anyone, truth be told I should've probably stayed away from this thread to begin with, because this is a subject that I feel strongly about due to some of my own personal experiences in school. I went to a school for several years with a uniform dress code, and also went to a school with no real dress code, and I experienced issues in both that I still take umbrage with.

Anyhow, peace out, I'm gonna stick to posting on threads about megos and cereal and video games where it's a bit less likely to get me worked up