Another Superman The Movie question --- "perversions"

[Mikey]

Of all the talk we have about Superman The Movie the one thing nobody ever mentions is the comment made about Ursa, "on the woman Ursa, whose perversions and unreasoning hatred of all mankind have threatened even the children of the planet Krypton."

As a teen when the movie first came out I used to wonder if she was a child molestor or even killer of kids.

The "even the children" comment is what I think is kinda weird.

They didn't say Zod or Non was a threat to "even the children" --- even though of course they were, in a generic sort of way.

Just wondering, were they implying something ? .... Or was this just a 70's sexist comment that wouldn't be said about a man ?

[Hedji]

Well, she definitely was aware of how to entrap men with her own sex appeal, as seen in Superman II. ("let's just hold hands"). And in a cut scene from SII, she killed a boy by launching a police car light at him like a grenade. "Never to become a Man!" I think this kind of stuff corroborates the Jor El dialogue. Whether she was a molester like Freddy Kruger, we don't know, but I'd say we can be pretty sure she is pretty anti-male (misandrist) and ready to take genocidal action on male youth. Although, she does put up with Non and Zod, so who knows?

[Earth 2 Chris]

^What he said.

Chris

[knight errant00]

I always took it to mean more of a reference to torture-murder than to sex-murder. I think that comes through more in the SII deleted scene with the kid and the police light.

Of course, now that I'm thinking it through freshly, it does raise all sorts of interesting Zod and Non implications and questions . . .

[huedell]

Sorry to make this somewhat political, but I think it was an attempt to have the "baddies gang" be as ruthless as you could get---i.e. killing children---and not get so lambasted for doing so.

If it was Non who was killing children, the harrowing factor would have been upped, but by gender-swapping, it was a bit more palatable...dare-I-say "amusing"?

Sexism? In my opinion, it was P.C. sexism towards males at play here---i.e. an underlying acknowledgment that a female child-killer is more acceptable than a man doing the same thing.

And THAT---it kinda plays into Mike's "molestation" aspect in the real world, where female child molesters are (overall) looked upon less spitefully than males.

EDITED TO ADD:

By the way, there's no way "perversions" has ANY "sexual" intimations at all. "Pervert" isn't a term solely attributed to abnormal sex actions---it's ALL abnormal actions.

[Brazoo]

Sexism? In my opinion, it was P.C. sexism towards males at play here---i.e. an underlying acknowledgment that a female child-killer is more acceptable than a man doing the same thing

Weird, my take was the opposite. My thought was the screenwriters wrote it that way to make her sound worse, the sexist implication being that a woman who threatens children is extra-extra evil.

[enyawd72]

My biggest question/gripe about the Superman films is something that has only gotten worse with time and no one seems able to answer. Forget the "turning back the world" nonsense.

What I want to know is, in Superman II when the villains arrive on Earth, ZOD is completely baffled by WATER. He has never seen it before and has no idea what this "strange surface" is. HOW can Kryptonians have no concept of water? Surely they must drink right? Their bodies are presumably mostly water like ours. They have blood, spit, and tears...so what the heck is up with that?

[Earth 2 Chris]

The creators of the first two films seem to struggle with the Phantom Zoners as they related to the Krypton they created. They have powers that Superman apparently doesn't have (and shouldn't, per comic lore). Their reaction to things that should also exist on Krypton make them seem more alien than Superman or Jor-El. Jor-El had all this knowledge of Earth...why didn't Zod and company?

Chris

[Mikey]

Yea, I always thought the water/liquid thing was dumb.

Did Zod never see the stuff that comes out of his pee pee after he drinks a soda ?

[PNGwynne]

Weird, my take was the opposite. My thought was the screenwriters wrote it that way to make her sound worse, the sexist implication being that a woman who threatens children is extra-extra evil.

This was my impression as well. And connotatively, "perversions" and especially "pervert" carry sexual suggestions.

[huedell]

Weird, my take was the opposite. My thought was the screenwriters wrote it that way to make her sound worse, the sexist implication being that a woman who threatens children is extra-extra evil.

This was my impression as well. And connotatively, "perversions" and especially "pervert" carry sexual suggestions.

On the surface---yeah, the woman got stuck with "the taboo thing".

But that's just the surface of what happened. That's not sexism any more than it's "Ursa-ism" or "Sarah Douglas-ism".

The underlying political cultural sexism here is that if you FLIP it, and gave one of the MALES that trait, the issue in that scenario becomes far less "amusing/interesting" and far more "typical/harrowing/outrage-sparking" to moviegoers.

Hence the girl gets that trait instead of the guy.

It's still marketable as a superhero family film, as opposed to being relegated to a horror/thriller or some other "Rated-R" piece.

[huedell]

My biggest question/gripe about the Superman films is something that has only gotten worse with time and no one seems able to answer. Forget the "turning back the world" nonsense.

What I want to know is, in Superman II when the villains arrive on Earth, ZOD is completely baffled by WATER. He has never seen it before and has no idea what this "strange surface" is. HOW can Kryptonians have no concept of water? Surely they must drink right? Their bodies are presumably mostly water like ours. They have blood, spit, and tears...so what the heck is up with that?

Yea, I always thought the water/liquid thing was dumb.

Did Zod never see the stuff that comes out of his pee pee after he drinks a soda ?

You could look at the "stange surface" bit as Zod was just JOKING.

I mean... why not....

The one thing that could support that theory is that they weren't alone when he made the "joke".

Suppose Zod was just trying to freak the old guy in the rowboat looking on?

[enyawd72]

You could look at the "stange surface" bit as Zod was just JOKING.

I mean... why not....

The one thing that could support that theory is that they weren't alone when he made the "joke".

Suppose Zod was just trying to freak the old guy in the rowboat looking on?

No way man. One thing Zod did not have was a sense of humor. The dude was all business, all the time.

[PNGwynne]

I don't understand why you (or theoretically, the producers) feel shifting the focus to the feminine is "amusing" or less threatening. In fact, I think it's meant to make Ursa more threatening. That's potentially a sexist view, too, but the reverse of what you suggest.

All of the film's villains, Zoners included, are at times amusing, but it seems to me that specifically describing Ursa as "perverse" (my elision) is meant to be sinister, and in fact more so than if Zod/Non. They're merely (!) megalomaniacal or violent; the suggestion is that there's something particularly unwholesome or sadistic about her. It's a loaded word, used in a specific context as shorthand characterization.

[huedell]

No way man. One thing Zod did not have was a sense of humor. The dude was all business, all the time.

The "water"mention was, if we were to pretend I'm correct with my theory, admittedly a "joke" (if you define "joke" solely as "deception") in my theory's context---but "humorous" in intent? Of course not. Zod isn't a "whoopee cushion/joy buzzer" kind of guy.

More like "deception to intimidate" as in "Zod knows the rowboat guy doesn't know who he is. So, verbally, he makes it clear he's not from this planet, then he proceeds to walk on water, so as to intimidate the man."