Nine Marvel titles end in October,

[samurainoir]

Honestly the last revamped FF with Spider-Man replacing The Human Torch has great feel to it.

Hickman's Fantastic Four was my favourite marvel Title over the last few years. I loved how he wrote the future foundation kids and as a scientist and Johnny's best friend, Peter did end up being a perfect fit for what was happening in the title. I even thought Ben spending more time with the New Avengers worked very organically... As the emphasis on scientific exploration and educating the kids took priority. From a character standpoint it makes sense that he'd feel shuffled off to the side, particularly after Johnny died. Of course we recently got to see what a disaster it turns out to be when you let Johnny teach a class of super geniuses.

I'm actually a little bit disappointed that FF is ending, but I would rather it go out on a high note rather than let it fizzle once a new creative steps in. Although I would imagine Hickman might likely follow up on the threads he introduced in Fantastic Four and Secret Warriors once he takes over Avengers. I actually like the Mission Impossible rotating team idea since Hickman has proven to be adept at handling a cast of thousands.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FF-13-CGC-9-8-Fantastic-Four-Future-Foundation-/350579152236?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item51a025556c

[Figuremod73]

^ this is why I only read Silver and bronze dogear/reprints. Its just to frustrating to bother when Im perfectly happy with the volume and quality of the old material.

Comics use to be a well crafted art form (for the most part). There was alot of time and dedication put into the books. Even low selling or overlooked series seem better than most of the top sellers now.

When I do pick up something new its usually IDW or Dark Horse.

[aquatroy]

My pull list just got a lot shorter.

[Gorn Captain]

I'm sick of all the reboots.
I used to read 33 titles, now I'm down to four. I might just go all the way down to zero if this keeps up.

[madmarva]

I think one reason the relaunches and reboots do well initially is the optimism at the core of most fans. I think readers really do want to read a good Superman or Spider-Man book, so when there is a relaunch or a major change in direction or even a creator change, I think we are prone to test the waters in hopes that it'll be good. This buying habit has trained the publishers to switch gears in hopes to generate some juice. The publishers don't have any more of a clue than fans or speculators what is going to be a true hit,

I'm sure there is some financial aspect to the speculation of testing out a new series or relaunch, but I think most longtime readers know that 99 percent of the time value of new comics actually go way down before ever going up, if ever. No reader is going to buy a 2-year-old single issue for $4 when he can buy a hardback or trade collection of the whole story for $20 or less.

I really do think the price point on digital should be a dollar. Maybe instead of selling the whole issue for $2.99 and $3.99, maybe it should be half for $1. Half off an issue could go up day and date with the print version for $1 with the other half going up two weeks later. The publisher would still be making a good bit more percentage-wise on the digital over the floppy at the lower price because it doesn't have to be printed or shipped or distributed. A majority of the middle men are cut out. Such a move still protects the direct market because the whole story doesn't come out at once and the collector is going to want the issue to own, not just to read.

Comics companies need to capture or recapture readers not try to make them collectors.

[ctc]

>The numbers have got to be shrinking

I think the last time the numbers got crunched they were holding steady. You're still gonna get new people in; big budget movies that are seen by millions can do that. ('Course, in that case you'd expect a lot more than a few thousand readers....) And I don't think all that many people actually leave. Sure, they rant and rave about the poor quality of the books.... every month; which means a lot of 'em are still picking up said books. I saw it all the time back in the 90's at the comic shop.

>The county I live in has gone from 5 stores down to soon to be one in the last 5 years, so that just can't be a good sign for the industry as a whole.

It's not, but I think there's been some bloat for a while. In the 90's Windsor had no less than six comic shops.... servicing around 300 fans. That's a lot. Most of those folks were speculators. I really believe it was the collapse of the speculator market that caused the collapse of the N. American comic scene. Since everyone bought multiple copies of everything, you could support more stores than you'd think neccessary. When one sold out of "Bludddeathbladewar #0 ashcan" you'd run to another for six more copies.

The current fans get their stuff at a bookstore. A regular bookstore. I think that's one reason the superhero fans don't realize just how much stuff is out there these days: they're going to the comic shop for books.... very specific books from specific companies. So they never venture down the "manga" or "graphic novel" sections of a regular bookstore. Or check out any web comic hubs, or online print on demand sites....

>They show no signs of getting into new markets or making the 5 minute reads affordable as downloads or printed versions.

Yeah.... that seems to be more inertia as well. And maybe aarogance. Complacency? The feeling that everything'll reset itself eventually, like it did in the 80's?

>I think at this point Warner and Disney are mostly interested in the characters for movies and merchandising and don't really seem interested in getting the next generation of fans locked in.

DEFINITELY; although they no doubt feel the next generation of fans will be movie and tv fans. The comics don't matter 'cos they don't pull in nearly as much money as the movies and toys, and the folks making the actual decisions are way far removed from the consequences of those decisions. That's the problem with becoming part of a big corporate entity.

Don C.

[thunderbolt]

The numbers have got to be shrinking, I can't be the only one that quit floppies over the past few years. The county I live in has gone from 5 stores down to soon to be one in the last 5 years, so that just can't be a good sign for the industry as a whole. They show no signs of getting into new markets or making the 5 minute reads affordable as downloads or printed versions. I think at this point Warner and Disney are mostly interested in the characters for movies and merchandising and don't really seem interested in getting the next generation of fans locked in.

[ctc]

>They don't get what's wrong because they are still making money.

That's EXACTLY the issue.... which is why it bothers me so much when folks take the audience out of the equation. Marvel and DC DON'T do things to cheese off the readers, no matter how much it may feel like they do. They make great efforts to pander. 'Course that's part of the problem since it means chasing whatever the current trend is. Remember the 80's? Ninjas ninjas ninjas.... But people buy the stuff, so they keep making it. Reboots may not make sense from a story/writing perspective, but they're apparently good for business. Otherwise we wouldn't get them every year or two.

So we should be asking what the appeal is; and not in a condescending way. Who is their audience, and what do they get from stuff like this? I'm kinda thinking there's a burgeoning speculator group growing again and that's why the "special issues" still get a boost.

>And they aren't convinced if they stop this nonsense they'll make more.

That's trickier, but you're right. The key to making a super-hit is to CREATE the trend, not just follow it. But figuring out what the next big thing is takes a lot of trial and error.... or luck. And the Big Two....er.... However Many There Are haven't left themselves a lot of leeway to experiment with. The books are too expensive for impule buys, so people are reluctant to try something different. Even if they were cheaper, the core fans seem interested mostly in the same old anyhoo. Something new and/or different would be a hard sell. 'Course, it could bring in NEW fans, which would be awesome; but there's too much conceptual baggage attached to comics, especially the superhero stuff. Just as those on the inside of fandom have their expectations those on the outside have 'em too; and if they felt anything there would appeal to them they would have walked into a comic shop years ago and had a boo.

Digital COULD help here, but it seems like the superhero guys see it as an extension of the usual. Marvel would be well served to do something like a monthly digital book, selling for $1 and featuring some of their lesser characters. Maybe an anthology; so folks get exposed to different things. Or maybe *gasp* a FREE webcomic.... newspaper style, single page, whatever. Something to give some exposure to characters who aren't part of the X-Men or Avengers. (ARE there characters who aren't part of the X-Men or Avengers anymore?) It also gives non-fans a chance to read stuff with minimal risk, and without having to brave a trip to the comic shop. Not too many folks would shell out $4 a month for a Squirrel Girl comic, but they might spend a buck.... or a few minutes a week reading an online one. And it might snag you some readers who'd normally be put off by the "GRRR!!! ANGRY!!!" style of writing, or "GRRR!!!! Angsty!!!!" style, or the overwhelming Wolverine appearances. Readers who might be tempted to try one of your other books.... especially if you have a variety of other books to offer.

If you want to change the books, you HAVE to change the audience. New ideas will only take root if there's an audience for them. Which there IS.... the breadth and depth of indie/foreign/online comics shows there's an audience for durned near anything these days.... but you've got to get your material to them.

>I think the talent pool has become saturated

The word you want is "inbred."

>there really needs to be a company to come along with a new approach

There was; Shonen Jump, and even if you hate the Japanese stuff (which a lot of folks here seem to) it proves that all you guys constantly calling shennanegains on Marvel and DC are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! They did something different, something not subject to all the nonsense the superhero books suffer from, and for a decade they won. They built up a new audience, got kids reading comics again, and returned the focus to the story itself and not the collectability of this special issue or the popularity of the cartoonist. (All with no Wolverine appearances!) Those principles could be applied to the superheroes, and one might expect similar results; but Marvel and DC are way too set in their ways. A problem facilitated by a core fan base likewise set in their ways. ("It's digital AND black and white! No way!")

Don C.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^They don't get what's wrong because they are still making money. And they aren't convinced if they stop this nonsense they'll make more.

Chris

[VintageMike]

Those titles being dropped is a big reflection of my reading habits as out of all of them I had only been reading Fantastic Four regularly and only picked up uncanny X-man to follow A vs. X completely. Honestly the last revamped FF with Spider-Man replacing The Human Torch has great feel to it. Going back to the status quo made no sense.
The larger issue to me is neither company seems to get what's wrong. I've largely enjoyed the A vs. X storyline and from what I've gathered it's sold well. The reason being no just that's a huge event but that it's compelling and well-done. Put that effort into more books instead on constant reboots/relaunches and sales will come.

[Figuremod73]

I wonder who besides me folds a page while reading? Thats a real old habit I have, lol.

I think the talent pool has become saturated and there really needs to be a company to come along with a new approach (Like Marvel did in the early sixties).

[The Toyroom]

So when "Captain America" gets relaunched with a new #1, which it will be, what "volume" is it going to be on? Something like Vol. 7 or 8, if I'm correct. I can't stand the constant renumbering...I'll say it again....I can't stand the constant renumbering. Especially when just a few years ago they moved heaven and earth to make everything line-up to get a series like Cap to a magic "legacy" number to justify a higher-priced anniversary issue.

I'm still ticked off that DC restarted "Action" and "Detective" with new #1 issues. Blasphemy!

[JediJaida]

They're cancelling Thor??? AGAIN???? Didn't they already DO this, a few years back?

And then have the entire cast reincarnate anyway???

The only Marvel title I'm reading is Journey Into Mystery, which is mostly starring Kid!Loki.

To tell the truth, while the character had a boatload of flaws as an adult, he got a certain amount of sympathy from me anyway, because I used to read the original myths and hated the way he got shafted in the end.

Now that he's a kid, he's a lot easier to take.

He's cuter, smarter, less obnoxious, and is finally free of the grudge he had against his brother. That got old over a certain amount of time. Very old.

I like the chemistry between him and Leah, his partner and the dog, Thori is refreshingly blood thirsty in his attitude.

Not that he's killed anyone yet, but it's only a matter of time with that puppy's parentage (Garm and the Helwolf.)

[ctc]

>Doesn't ANYONE in the big two have ANY original ideas, anymore!!!

This is where I have some sympathy for the Big Two and a Half. (Fates help me....) I came into the superhero thing late in life. As a kid I didn’t care for them, and it wasn’t until my late 20's that I read them with any seriousness. So, over the course of two years I read over 6 decades of comics.... all at once.... and let me tell ya; it changes your perspective on things. Superhero comics have been ripping themselves off, rebooting, rebranding, going from dark and gritty to kiddified and back, recycling ideas, characters, plots.... FOREVER! Most people didn’t notice ‘cos they came into the game as kids, who have little experience and accept a LOT more than older folks. The life expectancy of a fan was pretty short too; three years on average, so people didn’t notice the recycling as much. And if they DID, they accepted it. That’s the price of doing business. (When you read them all at once it’s PAINFULLY obvious. Every 5 years or so.)

But that changed with out generation. The 80's were the era of the “educated” fan, who knew the past of the books, the present, were exposed to an ever increasing amount of hype for the future, knew all the ins and outs of production and the pros, and more importantly were in it for the long haul. And that’s the problem. Superheroes are a pretty limited genre. There are only so many permutations you can do of any character before you change them so much they’re no longer that character. So stuff swaps around a lot. It always did, but now the readers NOTICE. And they’re not happy about it. “IS Bruce Wayne REALLY dead?” No. Don’t be stupid. But they’re stuck; they HAVE to recycle the same old ideas ‘cos the nature of the industry forces it. A perpetual comic can’t change. Not really.

The fans don’t help either. A lot of them come into things with very clearly defined expectations. Anything not meeting them is poo-poo’d; which narrows the possibilities even more. Of course everyone says “they just need to make some GOOD stories!” but what does that mean? The list usually amounts to “stuff just like when I used to like them!” Too often I think that’s a nostalgic appeal to the feelings of those days, and not to the books themselves. I think this because there are tons of books out there that meet the stated criteria people put forth for “good” books; and yet, when you point them out there’s inevitably a list of excuses as to why those books are insufficient. (Hell; you can BUY the ACTUAL books of your youth, in huge compilations. For cheap! “But they’re black and white....”)

The weird “GRRR!!!!! Damn them!!!!” chest thumping adds to that feeling too.

So the companies have to bring in new readers, which they can’t ‘cos if they do anything different their core audience will scream blue murder.... and the potential new audience doesn’t care for the old style stuff because they don’t know the 30+ years of continuity necessary to understand the significance of this month’s guest star, and if they’re coming in as established comic fans they’re probably used to books where one person calls the shots, there’s a definite story progression, and events actually happen; things that CAN’T happen in a perpetual comic produced by a rotating crew.

>The price-point on comics is killing the readership as much as anything. Digital should cut out a lot of the cost of producing books, but they are priced virtually the same.

THAT’S a biggie! I don’t think they know what to do with digital though. I suspect it’s seen as a way of boosting profit by lowering production costs, which is why they don’t sell the digital at a significantly reduced price. It could also be:

>I know collectors here who are concerned with Mint condition, spine creases and other really small imperfections, which you can avoid by just reading the digital version

One of the things that took the wind out of the Big Two and a Half was the collapse of the speculator’s market. By the 90's at least 2/3rds of the people buying comics did so as an investment. That’s where the 90's collapse came from, and I kinda think the companies realize this. The new #1's, the new universes, the reboots, “a very special issue of....” all smell like attempts to make instant collectors items. Like the 90's. Given the boosts in sales for these things, I can see the execs thinking they work; which means any discussion of content is moot.

It’d also scare them away from implementing full digital, since data isn’t collectible.

>I read many many more comics than I actually pay for in digital format.

GOOD LORD! *choke!* You FIEND!

I can sympathize. I do the same, since a lot of what I like isn’t available any other way. I prefer print, so whenever possible I pick up the real deal. Luckily a lot of online comics do eventually release print copies.

Don C.

[samurainoir]

If you have the paper comic that you can take anywhere, why would you want to re-read the digital? Not being a smart alec; I just don't know why you would.

Here's where I break down as a reader and collector... I still buy a physical floppy comic of stuff I like, but generally bag it and stick it in the collection. The digital version has really made it convenient for me to load my week's worth of comics reading on the ipad... much more portable than pulling out the bag and board, pulling the comic out without catching it on the tape. Reading comics while eating lunch without worrying about crumbs and mustard or soup getting on the comic. It's easy to read on the transit, I don't have to worry about the paper comic getting folded or crumpled in my bag. I can read comics in bed on the ipad after the wife goes to sleep without keeping her up because you need to turn the light on to read a paper comic.

The digital versions are available quickly and easily on my computer and hard drive for reference and rereading, rather than digging through the dozens of boxes piled up and scattered across closets, bookshelfs and storage lockers.

For me it's more of an easy lifestyle choice vs. the paranoia I associate with keeping your comics in relatively good condition vs the ability to read them easily. I know collectors here who are concerned with Mint condition, spine creases and other really small imperfections, which you can avoid by just reading the digital version (prior to this, it would be why you would buy the trade paperback after you bought the single issue).

here's my other dirty little secret, just between you, me, and the entire internet... I read many many more comics than I actually pay for in digital format. The upside of this is, if I truly love any title I discover through my casual digital reading habit, I will run out and buy the trades and singles to reread and lend out, and sing it's praises until the cows come home... Chew is an example of a title I discovered late and had to catch up on via download first because I couldn't wait to get to the store and didn't have the initial patience to wait for the trade or hunt down the really scarce and high priced back issues.

and something about the possible death of Mocking Bird (probably speculation).

I'm thinking this might be unlikely since they did backflips to bring her back to life within the past couple of years, only to kill her off again almost and give her super soldier powers. But then again, this is the same company that went to all the trouble of building up that Brother Voodoo was the new Sorcerer Supreme and then just killed him five minutes later.