Barnes and Noble - your neighbourhood comic shop?

[samurainoir]

Name calling. Tsk tsk ctc tsk tsk.

Janson, I don't think Don is calling you a "Straw Man", but referring to your statement about him.
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I honestly don't think we have much to worry about when it comes to the comics that Marvel and DC put out even if Diamond and the direct market collapses in on itself (which at this point is a not impossible scenario).

I would argue that they have pretty much secured their positions better than all other print publication out there this side of Stephen King and John Grisham. The comics are small change when it comes to the big bucks of licensing action figures and making movies. However, the comics continue to function as content fodder for the toys, movies and video games in the cross horizontal integration of product within the corporate entity of both Warner and Disney. Dark Horse and the major mini-fiefdoms of Image would likewise probably be okay. It's the rest of the guys in the back of the Previews catalogue that would be in trouble, particularly the mostly mom and pop small press publishers without deep pockets to get them through a cash crunch. A healthy industry should not rely on one distributer.

But you are right in your concern for the small business owner/local comic shop who is caught up in all of this. I have the greatest sympathy for the little guy struggling to survive in this market, but it just shows that the old paradigm is potentially broken, as well as being challenged by digital, and they need to embrace new business models to survive. And I'm not just talking about jumping on every trend from Beanies to Trading Cards to Pogs to Heroclix.

Here are a few of examples of stores that I am confident could survive the collapse of Diamond and the direct market because they have diversified their clientele and product...
http://www.beguiling.com/index.php
Page 45 Homepage
LABYRINTH BOOKS Toronto Comics MANGA and GRAPHIC NOVELS - TORONTO

[Janson]

Name calling. Tsk tsk ctc tsk tsk.

[ctc]

>I can't argue with what you want to call something but there is a reason its called Manga because it Manga (presented in a different format which changes how a story is told). Comics and Manga are all Graphic Novels, the correct all encomposing term.

Semantics. "Manga" is the Japanese word for comic book. "Gekiga" would be closer to what we consider a "graphic novel." But either way; I don't think the publishing format really matters: it alters how the books are consumed, but not the content of the story.

>And you go to these festering and cynical Comic Shops 2x a month, why?

To get comics.

>Man you are one jaded Comic fan, to go to a place you dislike so much.

Straw Man. I don't dislike comic shops; but I think the Big Two and a Half worked themselves into a corner mining them as they had for the last 20 years.

Don C.

[Janson]

When did I poo poo Archie? All I'm talking about is Superhero's and the Big 2 and a half? Your jumping to alot of assumptions in your replys.

>Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.
That is; Marvel and DC.

( Sorry, but no duh, who doesn't know that. You obviously are misunderstanding my point)

Sequential illustrations with dialogue that tells a story; yeah, that's a comic all right.

I can't argue with what you want to call something but there is a reason its called Manga because it Manga (presented in a different format which changes how a story is told). Comics and Manga are all Graphic Novels, the correct all encomposing term.

And you go to these festering and cynical Comic Shops 2x a month, why?
Man you are one jaded Comic fan, to go to a place you dislike so much.

[ctc]

>I just don't agree with anything in your last response.

That's fine, but if you're gonna disagree I'd like it if you could site some data. Liek I said, I find it hard to believe folks think comics as a whole are on the outs when I see SO MUCH readily available.

>We aren't talking about something else like Manga here are we? Cause these kids that you speak of are reading Bleach, that is a Comic Book?

Sequential illustrations with dialogue that tells a story; yeah, that's a comic all right. I think what's happening is that you're arguing content, rather than medium. Superheroes have taken some knocks the last few years, but that's a genre; not a medium. Comic books are a meduim that encompasses more than just the Big Two and a Half. Bleach is a comic, so is Archie; and I've seen a lot of hardcore fans poo-poo both as not being "real" comics. Which is a shame, since they're poo-pooing the very things that cured the problem they see: getting kids to read comic books. They may not be the ones YOU like, but they're still comics.

>Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.

That is; Marvel and DC.

>It also sounds like you haven't been to a Comic Shop in 20 years and as someone who has worked in one within the last 5 years, I'm hoping you to go to one.

Ad hominem. I go about twice a month.

>The speculators haven't been there since the late 90's, the majority of the customers genuinely love comics.

....which is what hammered the Big Two and a Half: a lot of the expansion during the late 80's and early 90's was because of the speculators. Once the multiple holo-foil-limited-edition 0-fifty variant-glow in the dark cover thing scared them away the bottom fell out. I suspect your point is a big factor in why they started the big reprint compilations: there was an audiecne who wanted to READ the books. Marvel: Esssentials are strictly reading books. That's why I think folks should be OVERJOYED about them compilations; they get people READING comics, which is what you need to expand your audience. And getting them into bookstores is great too, 'cos the kids who grew up on stuff like Bleach will eventually look for something different. If Batman is readily available and affordable they'll give it a go.

The challenge for comic shops is mitigating the crossover. For way too long, comic shops have been cloisters for those aforementioned folks who poo-poo Bleach and Archie. Hence why they missed the revolution. The kids who read Bleach and Archie would never think to step into a comic shop 'cos for so long nothing there really interested them.

....but even if they don't switch over, it's all cyclical. There have been times in the past when superheroes were on the downswing. They're not going away.

Don C.

[Janson]

>Marvel and DC have been reprinting their books since the get go.

They have; often in book form and sold in book stores. (Such as back in the 70's.) But you didn't have the wholesale prsentation like with the Marvel Essentials or Showcase Presents books until recently; and those are readily available everywhere.

>its THE vital part of the industry today and without them as a "proving grounds" for independent books, you don't have half the material of the last 40 years

In the early 80's I would have agreed, but Marvel and DC pretty much squeezed the independents out of the comic shops by the late 80's. (After they started the process on their own....) Part of the crash in the 90's was 'cos the Image paradigm had taken over, and once folks got bored with that there was little else for them.

Most of the experimentation these days takes place online.

>you don't support your small comic shop your really not supporting comics.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics. And I think that's the probelm we have in perspectives. Yeah; the big two and a half have been hammered pretty hard the last decade, and with their decline so too has the comic shop seen a drop in patronage; but I think that's because the two had become intrinsicly linked. But superheroes aren't the total of comic books; there's a LOT more out there, which is why I think now is a boom time for comics. I'm not special ordering things I want; I'm buying them from the local bookstore. I have access to stuff from all over the world, from the beginning of the 20th century to now. I see kids reading comics; something that was an oddity 10, 15 years back. (When I worked at the comic shop in the early/mid 90's we didn't get many kids. And the ones we DID get were mostly speculators.) I see popular series' going into third and fourth printings; breaking the idea of comics as currency, and returning them to the "thing to be read" category. If anything, it's the folks who HAVE patronized the comic shops of the last 20 years that haven't been supporting comics, 'cos it's because of them that the definition became so narrow, and the subject matter became so inbred.

Don C.

Gonna say it as nice as possible but I just don't agree with anything in your last response. For whatever reason you don't like Comic Shops, thats cool your entitled.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics.

Well that is the format definition of a Comic Book isn't it? We aren't talking about something else like Manga here are we? Cause these kids that you speak of are reading Bleach, that is a Comic Book?
I will say that your line of thinking is in the majority and will be what pushes Comic Shops out finally. Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.
It also sounds like you haven't been to a Comic Shop in 20 years and as someone who has worked in one within the last 5 years, I'm hoping you to go to one. The speculators haven't been there since the late 90's, the majority of the customers genuinely love comics. I'm hoping you go check out a Comic Shop give it a chance, a lot has changed. Conversations with like minded individuals in the LCS or minimum waged assistants who can give a rats ace about Comics.

[ctc]

>Marvel and DC have been reprinting their books since the get go.

They have; often in book form and sold in book stores. (Such as back in the 70's.) But you didn't have the wholesale prsentation like with the Marvel Essentials or Showcase Presents books until recently; and those are readily available everywhere.

>its THE vital part of the industry today and without them as a "proving grounds" for independent books, you don't have half the material of the last 40 years

In the early 80's I would have agreed, but Marvel and DC pretty much squeezed the independents out of the comic shops by the late 80's. (After they started the process on their own....) Part of the crash in the 90's was 'cos the Image paradigm had taken over, and once folks got bored with that there was little else for them.

Most of the experimentation these days takes place online.

>you don't support your small comic shop your really not supporting comics.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics. And I think that's the probelm we have in perspectives. Yeah; the big two and a half have been hammered pretty hard the last decade, and with their decline so too has the comic shop seen a drop in patronage; but I think that's because the two had become intrinsicly linked. But superheroes aren't the total of comic books; there's a LOT more out there, which is why I think now is a boom time for comics. I'm not special ordering things I want; I'm buying them from the local bookstore. I have access to stuff from all over the world, from the beginning of the 20th century to now. I see kids reading comics; something that was an oddity 10, 15 years back. (When I worked at the comic shop in the early/mid 90's we didn't get many kids. And the ones we DID get were mostly speculators.) I see popular series' going into third and fourth printings; breaking the idea of comics as currency, and returning them to the "thing to be read" category. If anything, it's the folks who HAVE patronized the comic shops of the last 20 years that haven't been supporting comics, 'cos it's because of them that the definition became so narrow, and the subject matter became so inbred.

Don C.

[Janson]

>If Barnes and Noble becomes the destination for comics kiss the genre good-bye, its over Johnny.

I disagree. Comics moving OUT of the comic shops and into the bookstores 10 years ago was the best thing that happened to them in a LONG time. You can get a much wider variety of material now; as opposed to the 90's when it was either Image, or an Image ripoff. Even for the Big Two and a Half; you can get compilations of comics from a fifty year span, anything you want. Don't like the new stuff from DC? Pick up them Showcase collections. Hell; I'm not even a superhero fan, and I've read the first hundred issues of Fantastic Four, Spiderman, The Avengers, Teen Titans.... just 'cos they're cheap and readily available. That wouldn't have been feasable for me AT ALL before comics moved to the bookstores. It's a boom-time for casual readers, the curious, and those not willing to sink hundreds of dollars into reading copies of the classics. And THAT'S what pulls in new fans, the ability to try stuff, without shelling out $5 for 22 pages of story based on some obscure nerdly bit from 20 years back. ("Wait.... Humbug is actually.... UNCLE BEN?!?!?")

>Look what we did to the Music industry, goodbye to any semblance of art form.


Music is kind of an odd one; but even then, it's not completely bleak. CD sales have been up for a while; not for the big companies, but for the "small press" stuff. (File sharing back in the 90's hit the biggies hard, but the networks and means established allowed smaller bands more acces to audiences.) And the big chains have started noticing. I can get stuff like the Creepshow, or The Matadors at HMV. Lots of the older stuff has been reissued on disk as of late too; allowing me to finish off my sets of groups like the Monks (including a recent issue of their never released third album) or BOC.... often including songs that had never been available before.

Don C.

I gotta respectfully disagree. I don't understand the correlation of bookstores as the ones we should thank for cheap reprints of material from 50 years ago. That really is just a natural progression of publishing existing material in any format. Marvel and DC have been reprinting their books since the get go.
I'm glad that already published books are more readily available today no doubt, but good luck getting any new stories once the comic shops are gone. Like the LCS or not its THE vital part of the industry today and without them as a "proving grounds" for independent books, you don't have half the material of the last 40 years plus and now half the damn movies in Hollywood.
I'm just telling it like it is, you don't support your small comic shop your really not supporting comics. And yes I'm the jerk that will be telling everyone told you so.
By the way don't go to your Local Comic Shop for Free Comic Book Day next week, go to Barnes and Noble and see what happens.
Michael Kormanik

[ctc]

>If Barnes and Noble becomes the destination for comics kiss the genre good-bye, its over Johnny.

I disagree. Comics moving OUT of the comic shops and into the bookstores 10 years ago was the best thing that happened to them in a LONG time. You can get a much wider variety of material now; as opposed to the 90's when it was either Image, or an Image ripoff. Even for the Big Two and a Half; you can get compilations of comics from a fifty year span, anything you want. Don't like the new stuff from DC? Pick up them Showcase collections. Hell; I'm not even a superhero fan, and I've read the first hundred issues of Fantastic Four, Spiderman, The Avengers, Teen Titans.... just 'cos they're cheap and readily available. That wouldn't have been feasable for me AT ALL before comics moved to the bookstores. It's a boom-time for casual readers, the curious, and those not willing to sink hundreds of dollars into reading copies of the classics. And THAT'S what pulls in new fans, the ability to try stuff, without shelling out $5 for 22 pages of story based on some obscure nerdly bit from 20 years back. ("Wait.... Humbug is actually.... UNCLE BEN?!?!?")

>Look what we did to the Music industry, goodbye to any semblance of art form.

Music is kind of an odd one; but even then, it's not completely bleak. CD sales have been up for a while; not for the big companies, but for the "small press" stuff. (File sharing back in the 90's hit the biggies hard, but the networks and means established allowed smaller bands more acces to audiences.) And the big chains have started noticing. I can get stuff like the Creepshow, or The Matadors at HMV. Lots of the older stuff has been reissued on disk as of late too; allowing me to finish off my sets of groups like the Monks (including a recent issue of their never released third album) or BOC.... often including songs that had never been available before.

Don C.

[Janson]

If Barnes and Noble becomes the destination for comics kiss the genre good-bye, its over Johnny.

Look what we did to the Music industry, goodbye to any semblance of art form.

[ctc]

>so kids are reading one comic, and it tanked as a movie

They're reading a lot more than one. Who do you think bought 50 volumes of Naruto? (And counting....)

Don C.

[Janson]

Why would you use BnN as a comic shop if you have a local one is beyond me? BnN 10% off coupons, pfft, any LCS would gladly match match the discount. Their are alot of Comics that are really good out there that the big 2 don't publish and would not see the light of day if they didn't sell in LCS's first. Scott Pilgrim would never be carried in BnN unless Diamond sales in smaller shops didn't show how popular it was.

Walmart will win the retail wars by 2030 but I guess everyone just wants to shop there anyway.

[thunderbolt]

OK, so kids are reading one comic, and it tanked as a movie. I stand corrected.

[samurainoir]

yeah, and Scott Pilgrim did great at the box office.

That's not really the point of this discussion though is it?

Here's the "Box Office" for the graphic novel in August of last year. If that isn't a huge sub-thirty demographic audience for print, I don't know what is...

http://geeksyndicate.files.wordpress...pg?w=640&h=435

Scott Pilgrim dominates Diamond sales - Comics News - Digital Spy

Scott Pilgrim Tops the Sales Charts



The Point: "Kids don't read comics anymore" and "we need to get more kids reading comics" isn't what most people are actually expressing here. I think it's a pretty safe bet that "comics" will be around in some form or another for quite some time. It just might not be the comics we remember so fondly from our own childhoods.

Anyone who says there are no outlets or material for kids to experience comics and get into them just don't have their eyes open to the amount of material that is actually available.

[thunderbolt]

yeah, and Scott Pilgrim did great at the box office.