Green Arrow theory

[Earth 2 Chris]

I honestly don't have a problem with GA killing Prometheus, based on what he did, and GA's past use of lethal force. But I have a problem with DC killing Lian (as Anthony said, an interesting character and story device is gone), the maiming of Roy (how many Titans have now had their appendages ripped off?), and GA being "on the run" for killing Prometheus, and apparently going to jail for it (possibly). WW did get off the hook for killing Max Lord. Of course, I had a problem with that whole thing, and the useless killing of Ted Kord too. DC can't seem to leave him really dead, so why kill him? To me, the writers take the easy way out for the gut punch, and then others have to deal with the fallout form their actions.

Look at JLU. Engaging stories appropriate for adults and children. Plenty of tension, drama, you name it. Not one of the heroes lost a limb or a life during the run. Timm and company worked within established guidelines and gave us the best stories featuring these characters produced in the last 25 years easy.



Chris

[The Bat]

I really don't have that much of a problem with Green Arrow killing Prometheus either.....but the JLA certainly does!

But Hell...they got past Wonder Woman killing Max Lord.

[The Toyroom]

To get back to the Aquaman topic for a bit....do you know how many #1s Aquaman has had since Crisis on Infinite Earths (back in '86)....counting mini-series, one-shots and ongoings?

7

Besides being an archivists nightmare, it goes to show that DC has not had a handle on what makes Arthur Curry tick in a looooong time....Constant reboots, rewrites and halfassed jumpstarts have damaged the character to the point that only a Geoff Johns probably feels comfortable removing the radioactivity from the character. Alas, once he stops writing/guiding the direction of Aquaman, we'll probably be in the same boat once again....

[The Toyroom]

There is No Big "3" anymore ..., There's a Big "4" ... in DCU ..., Sales Show it ..., and if anything Lantern Sales Destroy WW's too .

No, Wonder Woman's sales have always pretty much been in the tank, compared to Superman and Batman....with the possible exception of the early George Perez run. The character for some reason can't sustain the interest or fan-base that Supes and Bats do. Probably why there is no Wonder Woman family of titles or even a 2nd book featuring WW ala Action or Detective. The last time she carried two titles was when she was in her own book and Sensation Comics....and that was in the early 50s. She got bumped by.....Johnny Peril!

[The Toyroom]

I hafta say I agree with Chris...more or less being don't f' up the character if you have no way out of the corner you paint yourself into. There's only a few guys like a Geoff Johns who can work magic out of other people's messes...but as Chris also pointed out, he too can stumble on occassion, as evidenced by Flash:Rebirth.

I really don't have a problem with Green Arrow killing Prometheus....GA has killed in the past so there is some precedent. I think I have more of a problem with the maiming of Roy Harper (the bionic arm angle doesn't appeal to me and takes away from the "everyman-who-shoots-a-bow-REAL-well" aspect of the character) as well as the killing of Lian Harper. Lian had the potential to be a much more interesting character alive, considering her father was a hero and her mother Cheshire is a villain (guess this negates the Red Hood/Lian analog in Kingdom Come?). Dead, she's well dead, and now there is no longer a story-driven connection between Roy and Cheshire.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Nothing was ever really Undone with Jordan ..., The Dude Came Back to Life .... , The Corps was re-stored ..., and everything that has Happened to him in the Past , is Now Present History of the Character, and Adds to the Story Lines which He is a Part of. The Character that did replace him, is still there, in Another Book, They Do Not , NOT Acknowlege it ..., nore has anyone said this didn't happen, If anything , they Use Fuel off of it for current story's and thought processes of the Character, and supporting cast. It's part of the Allure of the character ..., for people that like the Books today, and buy the Crap outta them. It's All Mythos of the Character Now ....

What I meant by undone was that DC at the time had no plans of EVER bringing Hal back as GL. They put him out to pasture in the worst possible way. They redeemed him somewhat in Final Night, but still, the greatest GL, founding JLA member, had become this maniacal killer, ON HIS OWN according to the stories at the time. Absolute power HAD corrupted him ABSOLUTELY. Then Johns brought him back as the Spectre and they ran him through his own title for a while, and then FINALLY enough people had changed jobs at DC that someone finally had the smarts to put Hal back as GL. Johns wove a fantastic story and did most definitely re-engergize the franchise, but even he couldn't (pardon the pun) catch lightning in the bottle twice, hence his some what stillborn Flash:Rebirth.

My point was that there is no one to run checks and balances on the collateral, long-term damage that creators inflict on these ongoing characters. It took over 10 years for DC to finally straighten Hal out.

Chris

[The Bat]

And Jean's Died and Been Brought Back another , what 5 times Since ? ,... Hardly a good Anology Piece for Green Arrow Killing 1 Guy, that Killed his Grand Daughter.

I wasn't really making an analogy...just sort of going off on a tangent.

[BlackKnight]

And Jean's Died and Been Brought Back another , what 5 times Since ? ,... Hardly a good Anology Piece for Green Arrow Killing 1 Guy, that Killed his Grand Daughter.

[The Bat]

I do agree that sometimes Writers paint themselves into a Corner. That happened to Chris Claremont on "The Dark Phoenix Saga"...when John Byrne changed the ending, without running it by Chris. He had Phoenix consume a Sun...and destroy a Planet wilth billions of inhabitants. Before Claremont found out about it...it was too late to change the ending. So...Marvel decreed that Jean would have to die for her crimes.

But of course in Comics...there's always a way out. Turns out the The Phoenix was never really Jean. It copied Jean...placed her in a healing Cocoon at the bottom of the Ocean.

[BlackKnight]

Nothing was ever really Undone with Jordan ..., The Dude Came Back to Life .... , The Corps was re-stored ..., and everything that has Happened to him in the Past , is Now Present History of the Character, and Adds to the Story Lines which He is a Part of. The Character that did replace him, is still there, in Another Book, They Do Not , NOT Acknowlege it ..., nore has anyone said this didn't happen, If anything , they Use Fuel off of it for current story's and thought processes of the Character, and supporting cast. It's part of the Allure of the character ..., for people that like the Books today, and buy the Crap outta them. It's All Mythos of the Character Now ....

You bet your Arse I love Green Lantern Now ..., I also am a Big Fan of BoosterGold and Secret Six. As far as the Titles I am really into. None of those Characters have been Greater than they are today.

Aquaman ..., Now there's something thats been Done, Undone, redone, re-invented and Now it seems Undone .

[Earth 2 Chris]

But all the crap they did to Jordan had to be undone to get GL where he is now. Most creators can't make the reversals interesting and have them stick like Johns. Heck, even he misfired somewhat with Flash: Rebirth.

You guys go on and enjoy the storylines. I checked DC's solicitations from yesterday, and looks like they are relaunching GA with a new #1 (what is this, like 3 in the last 10 years or so?). So bets are Roy becomes GA, bionic arm and all.

I guess I'm glad someone is enjoying the current direction of the DCU. It leaves me cold, and more than a bit upset. But I guess I've outgrown the need for angst in my funny books.

Chris

[BlackKnight]

I dunno How Compairing Arrow to that Aquaman Nonsense even adds up.... Arrow Killed 1 dude,... which we agree he has in the past , and with Aquaman ..., they keep re-inventing the Wheel.

I'd say Jordan and the Paralax was a Good Move.
Prior to that...
Green Lantern was Somewhat of a Joke, a B- Roster for the JLA ...,
with story lines where the character even took orders and Direction from Robin.

Post Paralax ..., people got introduced to a Kyle Rayner, which Most Fans Like, and most people can agree on the Fact , the Guy is probably the 1 stand in next to Wally that Actually worked, and more so the Last 6 Yr's after Rebirth ... Green Lantern is More popular than Ever ..., propeling the Character to New Hights. There is No Big "3" anymore ..., There's a Big "4" ... in DCU ..., Sales Show it ..., and if anything Lantern Sales Destroy WW's too .

[Earth 2 Chris]

Atlantis Chronicles is cool, but it and Giffen's Legend of Aquaman (and follow-up mini) mucked up Aquaman's pure origin story of a lighthouse keep falling in love with a woman from Atlantis. All that "son of Atlan" stuff just muddied the character to the point where no one knew what to call him, Orin or Arthur.

To me, that's creators changing too much of the status quo when they should have went off and made their own characters, rather than rewriting established ones to suit them.

Chris

[samurainoir]

Look at what Peter David did to Aquaman. It sold some books for a while, but everyone pretty much agrees now it was a bad move. Not Hal as Parallax bad, but still bad.

Everyone but me. As much as I loves me the Orange and Greens of the Mego, as a READER, Peter David's run was the only one that really ever captured my attention outside of the Ocean Camo mini in the eighties by Neil Pozner.

Physical characteristics aside with the ridiculous hook hand and hippie hair and beard, David crafted one of the most cohesive and mythical Aquaman sagas, particularly if you read it alongside the hugely underrated and beautifully illustrated Atlantis Chronicles.


David put in one of the longest runs in recent history and focused on the character, and really defined Orin through his conflicts and relationships. That to me is why that series had "legs" for years beyond the initial hook-hand shock, and was the first time Aquaman was able to sustain an ongoing series when he hadn't been able to get any kind of foothold with any readership for the prior two decades.

I think JLU really picked up on the "savage" Aquaman quite well, and even the fun and awesome blustery Brave and Bold interpretation owes something to Peter David's run.


I have absolutely no problem at all with the "King Conan of the Seas" version.

To me, the character went off the rails in recent years AFTER Peter David. Eric Larson comes in with an axe to grind and proceeds with a 180 to dismantle everything David did. From there you have the deaths and reboots that really killed the character, Sub-Deigo, Spectre stepping on Atlantis. Rather than building on this wonderfully complex underwater world populated by interesting supporting characters that David crafted in the 60+ issues. Who'd of ever imagine you'd care about DOLPHIN?! Her previous character traits were defined by Daisy Duke cutoff jean shorts.

Isn't it sad that the best thing coming out of the past dozen or so years of Aquaman is Lagoon Boy? Maybe the new Aquagirl, but even she's a much less defined character to me, even under the pen of Geoff Johns. At least with Lagoon Boy I know that he's got an insatiable curiousity of the surface world and it's artifacts.

[The Bat]

.
You guys should read X-Force. Talk about a Blood Bath.

I do read Stab-Force. But I think of those Guys as the X-Men's Special Ops.