I finally seen The Black Knight yesterday.

[huedell]

ya know what's missing in this thread? More Huedell.

Believe me---I''ve been clocking this thread looking for another "in".

It's tough because there is a LOT of "point" then "counter-point" already here

---and so things have been covered and sides have been taken in earnest
that I would've said basically the same thing by posting.

But t-bolt---you wanted the huedell EXPERIENCE

Where do I stand now?

Don's points about internal consistent tone was paramount in this thread.

Really, superhero movies should have an element of fun in my opinion.

The Nolan BATMAN doesn't really have it---but it's there in small doses and
is written so well(!!!) that it basically makes up for any lack of giddy fun.

I'm not really into championing superhero movies as the better movies
historically---but if I had to pick movies that I think were good superhero
movies---the best of the biggies in that genre---I'd say...

I liked Burton's two Batman movies for their poetic wicked/naughty style
and Raimi's first two Spidey flicks due to Peter's lovable loser character
going up against villain genuises with cool gadgets set against a light tone
---more focused than SPIDEY 3 which I thought was a bit too fractured
in tone and plot but still fun.

Otherwise SUPERMAN RETURNS great performances by Spacey and Routh
admirable Donner trbute and bold plot inclusion of the kid made it cool
for me

-- and SUPERMAN III's screwball standalone quality was tasty in it's own way.

SUPERMAN II would be nothing without it's cast---the plot was too disjointed and scattered in tone ala SPIDER-MAN 3---but what a cast it was! The
PHANTOM ZONE actors were the clincher.

P.S. I remember thinking the oft-maligned DAREDEVIL was okay--
but I'd have to watch it again.

[thunderbolt]

ya know what's missing in this thread? More Huedell.

[Hector]

This might have been mentioned before but imo, the whole idea of Batman is the very unrealistic, so trying to make it as realistic as possible just makes it that much more unbelievable or even unintentionally funny.

The classic Batman TV series overcame this by letting us be part of the joke.... Even Burton's did that to some extent.

This new movie series doesn't do that.
It tries too hard to make us think we're watching a legit action crime drama.
For me, it does work but not in the context they intended.

It's enjoyable for actually a different reason .......
The seriousness of the movie's setting and tone is actually the joke.

Batman no matter what you do will always be a comedy.
Yes, on many different levels depending on the genre, but a comedy nonetheless.

This newer version is just a different kind of joke .....
Deadpan, I think they call it.

Hey, that would be a good Bat Villian

Have you even read the old Batman comics...especially the Golden Age ones?

There's absolutely nothing comedic about them...nothing.

Bob Kane created Batman as a counter-point to goodie-two shoes-Superman...the comics was all about crime drama.

You are too stuck on the campy 60s television show and the horrid Batman comics of the 70s.

[thunderbolt]

I didn't call Him Shakespear...but everybody has a starting point for an idea.

I just don't think Kane ripped off anyone of shakespeare's stature, more like the Spider and the Shadow. Both rich playboys fighting crime as dark avengers.

[Hector]

^^ The problem with "novelty" in movies is that it gets abused and you end up with a Schumacher Batfilm or Superman IV.

Exactomundo, lol.

Excellent point, my friend.

[The Bat]

^^^ Wow, you are giving Bob Kane wayyyyy to much credit.

I didn't call Him Shakespear...but everybody has a starting point for an idea.

[thunderbolt]

^^^ Wow, you are giving Bob Kane wayyyyy to much credit.

[The Bat]

Batman no matter what you do will always be a comedy.
Yes, on many different levels depending on the genre, but a comedy nonetheless.

Couldn't disagree more! I've said for years that I believe BATMAN is taken from "Hamlet". Hence, it's a tragedy...not a comedy.

Examples:

1.)Bruce Wayne is refered to as "the Prince" of Gotham"(Hamlet-the Prince of Denmark).
2.)Bruce is taking revenge for the murder of His Parents(Hamlet seeks revenge for the murder of His Father, by His Uncle).
3.) Both Characters are deeply tortured Souls...that are just trying to find "Justice", for the wrongs done to them in life.

[Earth 2 Chris]

The problem with "novelty" in movies is that it gets abused and you end up with a Schumacher Batfilm or Superman IV.

Yep.

I can see how the "realism" of DK would turn some people off. But honestly, the Batman movies were taken to the fantastic extreme by Schmuck-maker. I think Nolan kept more outright fantasty elements (all the gliding for instance) in Batman Begins because he was new to the franchise and hadn't proven himself, and wasn't sure how audiences would accept a grittier, more grounded Batman. In DK he was able to put his own vision across more, and that's a Batman that is as grounded to reality as possible. That still includes taking gadgets and real technology and extrapolating on what they really can do, and having the public (and many officials) more-or-less accept a caped vigilante.

I like all kinds of different Batman stories. From the fantastic sci-fi to the gritty crime drama. To me this is a very valid interpreation, with a direction based on the very earliest Batman stories, and of course later stories like Year One and Long Halloween. That Batman had never been successfully put on screen before. Burton his on some of it in the first movie, but Burton is incapable of putting across realism.

I have told most people not to think of it as a super hero movie. It's more like a crime drama with a guy in a bat suit and a killer clown. And that's fine by me.

Chris

[The Bat]

....which is why I think what people really want is "plausibility." They want things that make sense given the situation of the story. Internal consistency.

Don C.

Very logical.

[Mikey]

This might have been mentioned before but imo, the whole idea of Batman is the very unrealistic, so trying to make it as realistic as possible just makes it that much more unbelievable or even unintentionally funny.

The classic Batman TV series overcame this by letting us be part of the joke.... Even Burton's did that to some extent.

This new movie series doesn't do that.
It tries too hard to make us think we're watching a legit action crime drama.
For me, it does work but not in the context they intended.

It's enjoyable for actually a different reason .......
The seriousness of the movie's setting and tone is actually the joke.

Batman no matter what you do will always be a comedy.
Yes, on many different levels depending on the genre, but a comedy nonetheless.

This newer version is just a different kind of joke .....
Deadpan, I think they call it.

Hey, that would be a good Bat Villian

[ctc]

>The problem with "novelty" in movies is that it gets abused and you end up with a Schumacher Batfilm or Superman IV.

....which is why I think what people really want is "plausibility." They want things that make sense given the situation of the story. Internal consistency.

Don C.

[The Bat]

^^ The problem with "novelty" in movies is that it gets abused and you end up with a Schumacher Batfilm or Superman IV.

EXACTLY!! You hit the Nail on the Head Joe!

[thunderbolt]

^^ The problem with "novelty" in movies is that it gets abused and you end up with a Schumacher Batfilm or Superman IV.

[ctc]

>in making it realistic, they seemed to boil out a flavour I like.

I will NEVER understand the whole "realistic superhero" fetish. "We want a guy in a bat costume, who runs around with impunity, never gets shot, drives around in a REALLY noticable tank that nobody just follows back to his lair, and he fights wacky guys who crawl out of the woodwork and nearly destroy the city every week with elaborate deathtraps using a lot of explosives and equipment that must have fallen off a truck or something 'cos the authorities never seem to notice it being sold."

"....but do all that realisticly."

I think the missing flavour is "novelty." "Realism" usually equals "whatever conventional wisdom currently says is right," and the result is usually a lot of stories that are all pretty similar. The whole point of doing a superhero story is that you don't HAVE to be realistic. A realistic Batman story would feature a very young Bruce Wayne being diagnosed with PTSD and possible antisocial tendencies, getting the help he needs (the kid IS rich, after all. I'm sure SOMEONE was interested in his welfare....) growing up to head a multinational billion dollar company, making guest appearances on talkshows with his series of trophy wives....

....and eventually dying in a weird explosion wherein a thousand nitro-laden poodle balloons take out the base of his main office. So it's not even realism that you get in a realistic superhero story. It's flavour of the week/month/decade/whatever.

I maintain that the key to ANY story is "internal consistency." That's what makes it all SEEM real. The idea that if something happens once it'll happen again. Or that people, places and giant two lane roadmasters don't just disappear when no longer convenient.

Oddly enough, there's a review of "Quantum of Solace" that supports this idea. Please note that there's a LOT of really harsh language:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....tum_of_phallus

But the part that I think applies:

"You know what's another word for realistic? Boring. If I wanted realism, I'd walk down the street to get Mexican food, and maybe stop by a Borders and pick up some magazines. You know why they don't make movies about me shopping for magazines? That's because nobody [cares]. And that's what Quantum of Solace is: me shopping for magazines, with no Mexican food. I don't see movies for realism, and if I did, I sure as hell wouldn't watch one made by some [clown] who thinks "reality" can best be represented with the aid of 219 special effects artists."

(The square brackets are my edits.)

But when you start conforming to that whole "real" thing you start limiting what you can do, and what your world can be. Which cuts down the whole "sense of wonder" bit, which is kinda what superheroes are based on.

Don C.