Question about Return of the Jedi

[The Bat]

the reason that anakin was changed is because lucas felt that Anakin 'died' when he changed to the evil side so his ghost should look like just before he 'died', if you know what I mean.
stupid if you ask me.

I agree! Obi Wan said that "on the Day he became Darth Vader...the good Man He knew as Anakin Skywalker died".

[Dave Mc]

What I said was Lucas has a history of rewriting history so everything his says is SUSPECT.

I personally don't believe most of what he says, but that's just me. You can believe what you like. This is just a fanboy debate over a fake movie universe that means nothing. It's all in fun and you're getting way too worked up over it. If you can't chat about this stuff without getting in a tither, then you need to find a woman, a man, a dog, or whatever to care about and get this stuff put in perspective.

[ctc]

>Lucas worked so hard on developing LUKE'S STORY and the universe Luke
inhabited that he wasn't going to go down that easy...

I see it as Lucas coming up with one helluv'a back story; and then really wanting to do something with it. It's happened before. Nuthin' wrong with that... I kinda wish MORE folks put this much thought into what they do. ("No; they have warp travel, but use chemical ballistic weapons...!")

>You say this like incest (or at least the implications of it) isn't a popular theme in mythology and storytelling throughout time.

I'm not saying it's not a popular or viable theme; but it IS creepy.

"There once was a man named Oedipus Rex, you may have heard of his odd complex.
His name appears in Freud's index, 'cos he LOVED his mother..."

>The "loose ends" as you termed them were, in fact, the ENTIRE ending to LUKE'S STORY which was already plotted---i.e. the ressurection of the JEDI ---a plot which was sidetracked (and essentially cut off) by the last minute
addition of the FIRST DEATH STAR BATTLE which originally wasn't a part of the "LUKE" story until the very end---an end where Vader also kills his master to save his son (also already written).

I could see that. A lot of times once you start gettin' down to the nuts and bolts of a story you end up changing things; sometimes for story reasons, sometimes due to other pressures.

Don C.

[johnmiic]

I highly recommend this book:
The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film by J.W. Rinzler

In it you will discover just how loosely planned Star Wars really was.

For instance:

It might surprise you to find the death of Ben Kenobi in film 1, ( aka, Epsiode 4 – A New Hope), was not originally part of the plan. Alec Guiness at first was so upset he was considering walking off the picture. This was not part of the original shooting script.

Lucas also screened Star Wars for his filmmaking friends so they could find holes in the film and point them out to him. Among them: Steven Spielberg and Brian De Palma. It’s is noted De Palma was merciless in his criticism of Star Wars and really let Lucas have it. Their opinions were not for public consumption but soley for Lucas.

All through the book FOX was really squirming to cut costs or even stop the picture from being made after they green-lighted it. They had fear it would be a tremendous failure and perhaps bankrupt the company even tho consultants said they would likely make a fortune off this film. At nearly every stage it seemed this film would not get made. Very little is said on the subject of sequels. Maybe after the success of SW sequels would be talked about but beforehand it was seriously in doubt.

[Mikey]

There's no way Lucas planned in advance (pre-Star Wars) Luke and Leia were brother and sister-- and Darth was Luke's father.
Lucas just made that stuff up as he went along--- as he did with the new movies--- like making Stormtroopers clones based on BoBa's father.

Boba was NOTHING until the geek fans fell in love with him in the late 80's (why, I have no idea)
Lucas used the new Star Wars DARLING to base the new stories on.

Aint nobody gunna convince me it's not true.

[johnmiic]

There's no way Lucas planned in advance (pre-Star Wars) Luke and Leia were brother and sister-- and Darth was Luke's father.
Lucas just made that stuff up as he went along--- as he did with the new movies--- like making Stormtroopers clones based on BoBa's father.

Boba was NOTHING until the geek fans fell in love with him in the late 80's (why, I have no idea)
Lucas used the new Star Wars DARLING to base the new stories on.

Aint nobody gunna convince me it's not true.

Mike, I have to also mention that:

1. The script for ESB was originally written by Sci-Fi author Leigh Brackett who passed away during pre-production on ESB and

2. The final/shooting,(?), scripts for ESB & ROTJ were written by Lawrence Kasdan.

We have to assume most of what made it into these films were added by these 2 writers. Vortigern99 might know a heck of a lot more on this subject and could possibly shed some light. I do recall reading parts of the early script in Fantastic Films magazine in 1980 and an interesting difference is Chewie, I think, was kidnapped in Leigh's version but when you get to Larry's script it was changed to Han being kidnapped. A much improved plot thread and makes for a tremendous cliff-hanger.

[Brue]

OK i read the first 4 pages of this thread. Had to stop there. Though there are many slightly plausible excuses for the garbage that Lucas presented (beginning with Return of the Jedi - giong to the prequels and culminating with the rereleases) none make up for the fact that it is garbage. The books are certainly not something I would defend the films with - that is like spreading spoiled mayo on moldy bread.

I have a DVD copy of the laser disc for Star Wars (note no episode number), I have VHS Special Editions of Empire because they doesn't offend me and the cleaned up video and audio are nice. I also have the SE Return because I frankly don't care about that movie anyway.

I have Ep 1 and 2 on VHS that I bought on sale and watched once - after remembering how bad thaey are (continuity issues aside) I have tried to sell the for a Buck apiece. I'll probably take them to good will.

Other thatn Continuity issues Ep 3 was entertaining but I have no need to own it.

The books - The first Zahn trilogy was great. There were a couple other passable tomes and the rest are utter trash.

Comics - Marvels original series was great. Dark Empire Great. The rest is disposable.

The Holiday Special is better than the prequels and most of the novels - and I don't need to convince anyone that the Special was bad.

If lucas needs some good material he should contact the fans that made TROOPS!

[jds1911a1]

[QUOTE=del;76284]>>

.

>>"stormtroopers are clones" ok if' that's true how come no one notices when Luke and han talk they don't have the same voice as all the other stormtroopers - which when you watch the film It sure sounds like they all have the same voice to me.<<
Clones troopers were the first step in the evolution toward stormtroopers. Some of the troopers during the time of the original trilogy may have been clones, but not necessarily clones of Jango Fett. The Jango clones had been aged artificially to have them ready in time. So they also got old much faster than humans. By the time the original trilogy happened, there were very few, if any, left other than Boba Fett(and the main reason he survived as long as he did was because he had the money for doctors to prolong his life). A lot of that kind of thing is covered in some of the recent novels. I think the samples of Jango's DNA were actually lost or destroyed on Kamino. The Empire made clones of various individuals who were then trained as stormtroopers. Some of the troops actually consisted of recruits, normal humans who joined the Imperial ranks.
The stormtroopers did not all have the same voice. While all of the clones were CG and voiced by Jango Fett, stormtroopers were played by multiple actors. They didn't have excessive dialogue, and the fact that they were speaking through helmets may account for them sounding somewhat alike.

>> Also as a Boba Fett fan Jeremy Bullock's voice is removed from the DVD versions and replaces with Temoa Morrison (Jango Fett/Clones). A real disservice to Bulloch.<<
It does kind of suck that you no longer hear Jeremy Bullock's voice in the new DVD releases, but I can understand why they did that. Boba was a clone of Jango, so upon maturation, he would have the same voice.

QUOTE]

I have not read a star wars novel since shadows of the empire. I base my clone as stormtrooper statement on the toy lines released by hasbro since ROTS where they have unmaksed Biker scouts and stormtroopers with jango fett faces. Since every toy has to pass lucasfilm muster that makes them part of the cannon. So at least some population of stormtroopers are clones of the JANGO DNA. If the novels have explained other sources for clones or that all troopers are not clones (which is what we all surmised with the original trilogy came out) I stand corrected.

Since Ep 4 occurs a mere 18-22 years after ROTS (I beleive Mark Hammil was 20 and by plot alone Luke is still a late teenager ) Boba Fett isn't all that old (maybe 40-50) in empire since he was an exact clone of Jango and was a boy in ep 2. As for his voice while they would have the same vocal chords any accents are driven by where you live/grow up so in the 20-25 years he wanders space before empire he would most likely have a completly different accent. Also damage to the vocal chords from combat would futher explain differneces in their voices. I find Bulloch's voice more menacing.

[huedell]

Dave wrote:

What I said was Lucas has a history of rewriting history so everything his says is SUSPECT.

Well, when I came back with the facts, you still negated them.
What else am I supposed to think except that you have "selective"
acceptance of facts? This kind of thinking makes everything potentially
a lie. Anyone can go around pointing fingers and saying--"this is a lie"-
--"that is a lie"--
-and while you can SAY "the world isn't round"---good luck proving it.

There's no way Lucas planned in advance (pre-Star Wars) Luke and Leia were brother and sister-- and Darth was Luke's father.
Lucas just made that stuff up as he went along--- as he did with the new movies--- like making Stormtroopers clones based on BoBa's father.

Boba was NOTHING until the geek fans fell in love with him in the late 80's (why, I have no idea)
Lucas used the new Star Wars DARLING to base the new stories on.

Aint nobody gunna convince me it's not true.

Oh well... ain't YOU special Mike?

Well, you know what? I ain't gunna belive the SKY IS BLUE
and no one's gunna tell me different.

Mike, you and Dave are not only insanely stubborn----you're actually just
ignorant...towards me in particular.

This isn't an issue of bagging on LUCAS anymore----its bagging on ME--
--because you're not believing straight-out FACTS that I am taking the time
to communicate to you. (I realize now after all this typing out some of
what I've learned over the years----my effort isn't being appreciated---its
instead being cast aside)

You and Dave are also are, quite frankly, aiding in spreading
"misinformation" on this thread and "rewriting history" by acting as such.

Bravo guys...you are now what you hate.

And Dave, as far as not getting worked up and "finding a woman" or a dog
or whatever--yeah, yeah, keep telling yourself that as you post on a
message board too. See, like you, I'm just here for the discussion.
This isn't a matter of getting "too worked up" or not---it a matter of some
stubborn posters on a toy message board not listening to facts. I thought
this was gonna be a fun debate and/or dissection that revealed TRUTH.
You guys would rather say: "well, I don't believe you" even though multiple
interviews rergarding the making of the films as well as storytelling logic
have proved differently and corroborate these simple things I've
spoke about.

Funny thing is---the stuff I'm talking about here---the stuff we're debating
about--- is certainly miniscule in the scope of how SW was created
----as there was MUCH stuff added as the films went along which I
DO know about and of course would be happy to admit to and discuss
(some of which we already have).

Its the stuff that was obviously planned beforehand that is coming into
question---and why stuff so OBVIOUSLY planned beforehand is
being rejected----well, I can only guess why---

Maybe its that Lucas has urinated in a few STAR WARS fans (here at MM)
Cheerios over the years, and they are letting it out in this fashion?

Hmmm....

[jds1911a1]

Dave wrote:


Jeez----didn't you guys ever go to Sunday School?

I mean, read about STAR WARS history?

Thanks for the Raiders of the Lost Ark reference

[huedell]

I highly recommend this book:
The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film by J.W. Rinzler

In it you will discover just how loosely planned Star Wars really was.

For instance:

It might surprise you to find the death of Ben Kenobi in film 1, ( aka, Epsiode 4 – A New Hope), was not originally part of the plan. Alec Guiness at first was so upset he was considering walking off the picture. This was not part of the original shooting script.

Lucas also screened Star Wars for his filmmaking friends so they could find holes in the film and point them out to him. Among them: Steven Spielberg and Brian De Palma. It’s is noted De Palma was merciless in his criticism of Star Wars and really let Lucas have it. Their opinions were not for public consumption but soley for Lucas.

All through the book FOX was really squirming to cut costs or even stop the picture from being made after they green-lighted it. They had fear it would be a tremendous failure and perhaps bankrupt the company even tho consultants said they would likely make a fortune off this film. At nearly every stage it seemed this film would not get made. Very little is said on the subject of sequels. Maybe after the success of SW sequels would be talked about but beforehand it was seriously in doubt.

With respect john----and I'm only saying this because this is "internet
communication" and I'm not sure if you're getting my points in this thread
because of that...I hope you realize that everything you just posted there
about the "loose planning" of STAR WARS (NEW HOPE) jives with
everything I've been saying about NEW HOPE being a product of
having to cut the original movie based on LUKE'S STORY into THREE parts.

And, yes, I agree that all LUCAS' considered ideas for sequels hinged on
the success of the first STAR WARS movie

What I don't think many of the posters here are getting is---that a lot
of what actually happened IN the first movie was CHANGED for
the same reason-----Lucas wanted to do certain things a certain way
to work within one movie because he was SO fearful this would be
the FIRST & LAST Star Wars movie ever

As far as the outside writers coming in for ESB and ROTJ adding things--
-well, yeah sure they probably saved Lucas' butt with their great
script writing, but to suggest that THEY came up with the idea
of VADER being LUKE's father and LEIA his sister is exactly what's
wrong with this thread.

Are you kidding me? Lucas may be a poor dialogue writer and
a poor director...but, believe me as far as piecing together some very
impressive plot points (even if he had to bug his friends for feedback--
-so what), well, he's quite passable indeed.

[huedell]

Thanks for the Raiders of the Lost Ark reference

Hee-hee---I try my best!

[Dave Mc]

Well, when I came back with the facts, you still negated them.

Of course I negated them, you're wrong, what else am I supposed to do?

What else am I supposed to think except that you have "selective" acceptance of facts?

Possible. Hard to tell for sure. When you present some real facts, I guess we can test that then.

This kind of thinking makes everything potentially a lie.

Yay! You're starting to get it! Everything is POTENTIALLY a lie.

Oh well... ain't YOU special Mike?
Well, you know what? I ain't gunna belive the SKY IS BLUE
and no one's gunna tell me different.

And well you shouldn't. The sky isn't blue, it just appears that way.

Mike, you and Dave are not only insanely stubborn----you're actually just
ignorant...towards me in particular.

I was just stating my personal thoughts and opinions on the subject in a goofy little fanboy debate. That's it. I don't NEED to convince you of my opinion, and I don't care in the least if you agree or not. That's not ignorant, that's apathy. You however can not let it go, no matter the topic, no matter the circumstance, until you convince the other side of your argument. We've seen this time and time again like a bad TV show rerun. These are not wars of opinion that must be won, we're just BSing. Hence my comments. Do what you have to do, but get over your need to be right, to "win".

As far as being ignorant "towards you in particular"...

This isn't an issue of bagging on LUCAS anymore----its bagging on ME-- (I realize now after all this typing out some of
what I've learned over the years----my effort isn't being appreciated---its
instead being cast aside)

Seriously, I don't care enough to take the time to "bag" on you for anything just for the sake of doing it. I stated my opinions on the retelling of the story Lucas has done over the years. It has NOTHING to do with you at all. If you think it does, you really need to come out of yourself. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make it personal. You must have an incredible case of low self-esteem to overcompensate so much.

You and Dave are also are, quite frankly, aiding in spreading "misinformation"

I can already see the episode of COPS where they come to get me for this most terrible crime. Aiding in the spreading of misinformation.
"Bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when they come for you?"

They'll never take me alive!!!

And Dave, as far as not getting worked up and "finding a woman" or a dog
or whatever--yeah, yeah, keep telling yourself that as you post on a
message board too.

Nothing wrong with posting on a message board. There is something wrong in being too self absorbed. This isn't about being a geek. We're all geeks here, we play with superheros and science fiction toys. We like computers and the internet. We talk about Star Wars. Sometimes we have debates where we can acknowledge the possibility that someone else's point of view might carry some weight or be interesting. That is until someone freaks because they can't convince you they are in the right and you are wrong.

Maybe its that Lucas has urinated in a few STAR WARS fans (here at MM)
Cheerios over the years, and they are letting it out in this fashion?
Hmmm....

Uh, gee, do you think so? I mean, how many posts have you seen here over the years complaining about the changes and additions? Maybe, just maybe you are on to something here. Good job!

[The Toyroom]

I came for the question and stayed too long to see the typical Huedell drama...

Good luck to all! May the Force be With You!

[huedell]

All I get out of that post Dave is that you are trying
to tell me that Mark Hamill and the 20thCFOX are liars
along with your "sworn enemy" LUCAS

The fact that you and toyroom over here want to make it
out like I'm in the wrong for trying to shed some some light
to the ignorant (namely YOU and anyone else that thumbs
their noses at facts)...well, that's your perogative...

You call it "drama'---I call it "patience" beacuse I
could've easily just dropped it instead of bringing facts to the table
---facts that were gonna be thrown away anyway----oh well