Question about Return of the Jedi

[Mikey]

One thing about the special edition Jedi I really hate.....

Why did Lucas change the Ewok song ?

I'm not in love with the song, but seeing Jedi so many times after all these years, I always associate that song with THE END of the saga.
It's a happy bye-bye to the movie Series.

I wish he would have left it alone.

[Bo8a_Fett]

Yub Yub

[Bizarro Amy]

One thing about the special edition Jedi I really hate.....

Why did Lucas change the Ewok song ?

I'm not in love with the song, but seeing Jedi so many times after all these years, I always associate that song with THE END of the saga.
It's a happy bye-bye to the movie Series.

I wish he would have left it alone.

Ok, that's another thing I agree with. Why couldn't YubNub be left alone? I used SW music in my wedding and had to download it and burn a cd, because it's not available on a soundtrack anymore. Thanks for reminding me Mike.

[samurainoir]

Another thing I didn't like is Yoda's change in only 30 years.

The dude was like 900 years old or something.

I don't think a measly 30 years would've changed him much.

He also turned from a benevolent but serious dude, to a jokster, all in a measly 30 years, we are talking about a very old dude here.

Here I go again...

I think Yoda was allowed to demo his sense of humour on occasion, for example when teaching younglings by declaring "Lost a Planet Obi Wan has" (or whatever, I'm paraphrasing).

Keep in mind within that span of 30 years, everything he's known in his hundreds of years of Jedi training has been wiped away by Palpatine and Vader.

[samurainoir]

I think the ideal solution (if Lucas had to mess with it once again), would have been to put Christianson in old age make-up for the Ghost scene.

Although I guess they would have also had to put him in make-up underneath the mask of Vader when Luke pulled off the helmet.

[Hector]

wow!! i'm impressed with the analysis!! great job guys and to think all this discussion started with hec askin why lucas didnt have ewan/obi wan in the pic with young anakin. i'm going to have to check out the dvds again!

I had a feeling this was gonna happen...the Force is strong in here.




Anyway, you guys can crucify me if you wish, I will not retaliate, I promise.



I LOVE the original trilogy...but...

The new trilogy can go straight down the toilet.

I'm sorry, I hate the new Trilogy with a passion...the ONLY cool characters are Darth Maul, and to a lesser extent, Qui Gon Jinn. Good grief, I don't know who I hated more, Jar Jar, that kid who played young Anakin, or Natalie Portman, good grief. Her acting, especially in The Phatom Menace, was atrocious (I can sort of forgive the kid, he's just a kid, but Portman is supposed to be this quality actress)...argh.

[Airdave817]

A couple years ago, I think it was after Christensen was cast as Anakin, my wife got me the Trilogy box set. We scream at the screen every time we see him with Alec Guiness. I've convinced my wife that we desperately need to get the individual, unaltered versions.

I like some of the added footage. I know that it adds absolutely nothing to the story but ambiance and color. It might have been cool to see in the original version. Is it a big deal that Han Solo meets with Jabba before the Falcon takes off from Mos Eisley? Maybe. Is it incredibly dopey that you have a young Anakin and an old Obi-Wan Kenobi? YES!!!

I would have preferred one or the other. Both of them young or old. No disrespect to Alec Guiness, but he appeared earlier in Jedi, and pretty much owned the role. I saw Phantom Mence and decided to wait until all three in that Trilogy get collected to see the other two. Three words - Jar Jar Binks. And killing Darth Maul? He was an interesting character

Anyway, that's just my half-cent.

[Dave Mc]

Strike me down with all of your anger, and take your father's place at my side!


If you misquote to prove your point of view, does it negate your point of view? (take it easy, just joking with you a bit)

The actual quotes are from two different sentences, the first

"Good. I can feel your anger. I am
defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me
down with all your hatred, and your journey
towards the dark side will be complete."

and later after Luke kicks Vader's behind....

"Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now,
fulfill your destiny and take your father's
place at my side!"

That said, personally I think the rule of twos is horse pucky. It was never mentioned in the original trilogy and I think Lucas went to write the newer movies and thought "crap, if I have a bunch of Sith running around what happens to them all between the two sets of movies? Why aren't they mentioned in the Original Trilogy? Ooops! Better write something to cover up that mistake!

I seriously don't think there was any grand design. I think Lucas made much of it up as he went along. I don't think Leia was Luke's sister when the first movie came out, I don't think there was a rule of twos plan in place, and any history was made up as it was needed, and that goes right up to the point they made Sith.

I love this universe as much as any, but let's face facts, Young Lucas barely got the first movie made. It wasn't episode 4 in it's first release, it was Star Wars, a single story that probably was supposed to end when the first Death Star blew, but was left open just a bit for more just in case. That's all that was planned besides perhaps some rough idea of some background, but no more than any other movie.

Now, one thing I will give Lucas major credit for is he had the insight to create CHARACTERS. In a age were most Sci-Fi was focused on the gadgets and the effects, Lucas let good characters guide his project. Major props to him for not forgetting that no matter where and when a story is set, the characters make the movie.

[huedell]

Some of what you said rings true (or remotely true) Dave
but this....

I love this universe as much as any, but let's face facts, Young Lucas barely got
the first movie made. It wasn't episode 4 in it's first release, it was Star Wars, a single
story that probably was supposed to end when the first Death Star blew, but was left
open just a bit for more just in case. That's all that was planned besides perhaps some
rough idea of some background, but no more than any other movie.

...is undeniably wrong. Lucas had known that there were many stories to tell
regarding STAR WARS. He also knew that VADERS backstory would be a
worthwhile story in and of itself----BUT---not as interesting and
entertaining as Luke's story of ressurecting the JEDI----

When it came time to actually make "A NEW HOPE" Lucas realized that
he couldn't tell Luke's story all within Episode "4" (possibly titled episode "2" at
that moment---episode "1" being DARTH's BACKSTORY)

So knowing LUKE's story would have to be more than one movie----
he cut it up into THREE seperate movies. That's probably the point where
an exact "number" was assigned to A NEW HOPE----Lucas thinking:
"Well, if LUKE's story is THREE episodes long...DARTH's story is probably
THREE episodes long, regardless of if I get around to making them anyways"

When Lucas handed in STAR WARS, EPISODE IV: A NEW HOPE to 20CFOX,
the studios balked at the name saying that it was too confusing....while
Lucas was reluctant to change the name (a name which he chose to evoke
the vibe of his childhood experience at matinees), he DID end up changing
the name to the snappier and more concise: "STAR WARS" because...well...the studio said so.

YES, Dave many plot points were worked out during filming of the films
(like I said above---some things you mentioned in your post ring true)-
--but I can tell you that what I've just said here about ESB and ROTJ
already story-plotted as ACT TWO and ACT THREE of "LUKE'S STORY"
and knowing that DARTH'S BACKSTORY would constitute Eps. 1-3
is the LEAST of the truth regarding Lucas' masterplan for the SW story arc(s)
at that time (1976)--
-and there's more I could say too...but I'm trying to cut this post short.

[huedell]

I couldn't resist another post

I seriously don't think there was any grand design. I think Lucas made much of it
up as he went along. I don't think Leia was Luke's sister when the first movie came out...

Lucas had to be ambivalent about that. Lucas was always fearful that he'd have to
"close shop" and never have the money to finish LUKES STORY onscreen in the slightest-
--SO he HAD to play up the romantic battle for LEIA---why? Because it LOOKED good on
film....especially when Lucas wasn't living or dying by if they were siblings anyway.

And...you know what? It worked to his advantage because it ADDED TO THE FILM(S)

Y'know...Lucas wasn't even POSITIVE that he was going to make DARTH Luke's dad--
-and he wasn't POSITIVE that Vader was going to look so feeble when he was "unmasked"
in ROTJ (after shown as this monsterously intimidating villain for 3 films)

Looking back---I think those are all no-brainer decisions---but Lucas has always been
VERY COMMERCIAL with his decision making regarding plot twists, fearing things
too "strange" may alienate many viewers.

But believe me Dave, even though things weren't "set in stone"---they were
already being considered by Lucas----including the "RULE OF TWOS"

D'ja think that the same question that you brought up...

crap, if I have a bunch of Sith running around what happens to them all between the two sets of movies? Why aren't they mentioned in the Original Trilogy?
Ooops! Better write something to cover up that mistake!

...wasn't considered by Lucas MUCH earlier as he was writing the ORIGINAL trilogy
back in the 70s/80s???

It HAD to have been...

...and I'm sure he thought to himself after his initial rush of glee back in the late 70s
had subsided (and he ditched the idea he had of making FOUR trilogies):
"Thank god I'm only gonna do THREE 2hr. movies total instead of TWELVE
telling Luke's story--and I won't have to show anything else about the SITH than
the shallow exchanges between the EMPEROR and VADER and LUKE in ESB and ROTJ."

If he ONLY knew back then that he'd make THREE more movies dealing more directly
with the Sith....

(Heck, it probably woulda really slowed down the ORIGINAL trilogy with the
same kinda funky exposition that mired down the new trilogy! Count yer lucky
death stars!)

[Vortigern99]

The origins of STAR WARS are open for discussion. Lucas asserts one position now, and asserted a different one thierty years ago. The documentary evidence we have (all versions and drafts of the script for the original film) corroborate Lucas' earlier stance rather than his later, making his recent statements rather suspect.

Overall, I agree with Dave Mc's assertion that "there was no grand design". Lucas made it up as he went along. But so what? Tolkien made it up as he went along, and went back to revise sections of the Hobbit (the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter) to make Lord of the Rings more cohesive. That doesn't mean it isn't brilliant or entertaining or moving or effective or valid. LOTR is all those things, IMO, and so is STAR WARS.

BTW, Dave: Thanks for your correction of my quoting the Emperor's sh**-talk. For the record, I was paraphrasing.

[Dave Mc]

There is no documentation that can prove to me Lucas had any plans or even any hopes of making more than one film from the start. Unless I saw dated scripts or detailed outlines that were before the original film release, I wont believe it.

After SW came out and became so big, I'm sure Lucas started dreaming it all up, and of course stated "yeah, this was my plan all along", but in 1976 to even dream that you could make a sci-fi movie trilogy was almost out of the question. The only series in that era to do that would be POTA's. Sequals just weren't the possiblity they are now. For Lucas to even consider the possiblity would have been insanity. All that crap you read now about Lucas turning in the original script titles Episode 4, I believe to be Lucas rewriting history. Sure, he may have started rewriting it right after the first release of SW, but it's re-written, you can bet on it.

That's just my take. I agree with Vortigern, so what that he made it up as he went along? That doesn't bother me at all. All creative people do that. Dive in and let the project take you were it will. I don't care much for the re-writing of history, of the changing of the original films (or the orignal book in the case of the Hobbit) to make the later stuff jive, but I have no problem with making it up as you go along. My point is, during this discussion of "what was planned" was to point out that I believe the answer to be "not much".

Vortigern proves my point. What Lucas once said doesn't jive with what he now says. Add that to the fact that he does indeed re-write history (just watch the new versions of the films) and it makes everything he's said about how things happened after the first film release suspect to serious doubt.

I'm not anti-Lucas. He made a brillian universe with brilliant characters, my all time favorite as a matter of fact. He muscled it through and worked his tail off to make it happen. Major kudos and props. I do think the history of how it all happened and what the intent was from the beginning has been (just like the original movies) altered from what actually happened, to what he wishes would have happened, to what makes a better story, and he's convinced himself that's the way it happened all along.

[huedell]

Dave, with all respect----you're being insanely stubborn.

Lucas flat-out lying about all I've just said is insane....don't ya think
his friends---SOMEONE--- would've called him on ALL this---and he woulda felt
a bit ashamed for being such a bald-faced liar?

YODA was CREATED because by lengthening the movies (which all were
originally supposed to be in one TWO HOUR MOVIE about LUKE's story
a story that you say didn't exist in full), OBI got killed off and a new live
"Jedi trainer" had to be brought in. That's a BIG part of SW lore that everyone
working on the films knew. (Its also the reason there were TWO DEATH STARS
in the same trilogy----LUKES STORY had to end with the destruction of a
DEATH STAR---and LUCAS felt NEW HOPE was missing a great "space station
blowing up" ending---so he put it in NEW HOPE and made a different
but simillar ending for ROTJ)

I'm being too gracious here though with all this "extra" explanation.

All you need know is REGARDLESS of all that I already said above:
Mark Hamill-- in live interview clips I saw--- has INDEED corroborated the prepping
of multiple sequels as far back as 1976
(On the big doc included with the DVDs Mark mentions Lucas going on and on
during the filming of A NEW HOPE about TWELVE stories he had planned to film)

...and I KNOW that 20th Century exec(s) coraborrated what I said above on that
bonus DVD doc because an exec comments on the "IV" working title---admittedly
it coulda been an FX guy from back then (I haven't seen the DVD in a while)---but regardless...

So, believe what I said----or you can believe that I ---AND Lucas AND Hamill
AND 20th Century Fox have some kind of conspiracy to make George appear to
have had a BIT more forethought than YOU want to give him credit for.
Geesh.

You can BET that George liked the idea of STAR WARS being a serial-type series
akin to FLASH GORDON (which he opted for the rights to by the way)---but with
FULL LENGTH movies instead of short serial cliffhanger bits.

You can BET that George saw the task as daunting and wanted to stop after
three of the episodes (the ones he thought most commercially viable) were
finished.

And I, personally, think that IF George COULD have fit ALL of LUKE's story
into one 2 hr. film---he would've and called it EPISODE TWO---and maybe
considered doing an "EPISODE ONE" telling VADERs backstory at some point

Instead the movies became longer ---and split up into two trilogies
for smart storytelling reasons

Lucas really went out of his way to produce the NEW trilogy---even tho'
he knew it would be rife with story challenges---probably partly because
he felt it was artistically "unfinished business" and also because he
thought that potentially he could make another billion dollars--- or so

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

I remember that Lucas said the first film was actually the fourth; way back when. (Well before Empire.) I also remember him saying that he started with the fourth 'cos the first three were pretty boring. "Like a history lesson" was the line.

And, holey smokes; he was RIGHT! I remember hearing about Vader's origin way before Empire too.... and it played out just like it was explained. Same with the Clone Wars... more or less.

So I have no doubt that Lucas had thought most of it up way before hand. But just 'cos you've come up with the major stuff doesn't mean the fiddly bits have been done too. The Luke/Leia thing I suspect was an add on. (Otherwise the first film has some REALLY creepy parts...) Vader as Luke's dad? Might not have been. I know Han was pretty much added after Fox rejected the original script. (It involved a lot of Wookies, and kinda sounded like the major.... er... "story" from the Christmas Special.)

Did he expect a second film? Probably not. But that doesn't mean he didin't write the possibility into the first. His galaxy is a REAL big place, and there were a lot of loose ends after the first film. I don't remember the "episode 4" thing when I first saw the film; but I DO remember it when Star Wars came back to theaters the next year. I suspect Fox wanted a sequel after the first one hit; and Lucas was ready. For the most part. Some polish, a few adjustments and voiola!

Don C.

[huedell]

Dave wrote:

Vortigern proves my point. What Lucas once said doesn't jive with what he now says.
Add that to the fact that he does indeed re-write history (just watch the new versions of the films)
and it makes everything he's said about how things happened after the first film release suspect to serious doubt.

Vortigern proves what point exactly? Because Lucas's statements
within a twenty year span don't match up exactly---then EVERY thing Lucas
says is a 100% lie?

Wow---talk about "blanket statements" covered with vague accusations
regarding so-called "crimes" that many would merely call "artistic liscence"--

-not to mention a blending of "fantasy" with "reality" you make here-
--Lemme get this straight---Lucas rewrites SW history---so that proves
he rewrites REAL history and is automatically guilty of huge fabrications.
Um...okay. Good thing you're not a judge at the "Lucas trials"---he'd
never make it outta prison!

Don wrote:

Did he expect a second film? Probably not.

Regardless of how you define "expect" Lucas really WANTED a 2nd film---
and if he couldn't do it --he was going to write books---anything
chronicling Luke's adventures, etc.

Lucas worked so hard on developing LUKE'S STORY and the universe Luke
inhabited that he wasn't going to go down that easy...

The fact that NEW HOPE absolutely throttled the movie biz with its success
gave Lucas the opportunity to really let loose----and Lucas didn't know
EXACTLY what to do in the heat of that unanticipated moment of success
with the FREEDOM to handle his beloved space-opera with a better grip
than ever could be imagined...he didn't know EXACTLY...

But he DID decide to...
1) ...replace OBI WAN with a new teacher (YODA) as OBI was only killed off
in the first movie as a more intense plot device--- and a ghost would
be an impractical teacher

2) ...finally take the plunge and make VADER LUKE's father, as now LUCAS
was certain that this would occur as a most intense plot device in a movie
seen by millions----he had considered it earlier and left it open---the success
of NEW HOPE "sealed the deal"

3) ...finally take the plunge and make LEIA LUKE's sister, as now LUCAS
was certain that this would occur as a most intense plot device in a movie
seen by millions----he had considered it earlier and left it open---the success
of NEW HOPE "sealed the deal" and the "sister" aspect was referred to
(as you must know) in that departure from Dagobah scene. When YODA said:
"There is another."---he wunt talkin' about LOBOT!

The Luke/Leia thing...the first film has some REALLY creepy parts...

You say this like incest (or at least the implications of it) isn't a popular theme in
mythology and storytelling throughout time. I stand by the idea that the
"incest" aspect of STAR WARS is far from creepy---its just great story-telling
(You want creepy---watch Joakim and his sister in GLADIATOR!-ha)

4)....and the most IMORTANT decision Lucas made after the success of STAR WARS
in 1977 was that he decided to finance the entire (NEXT) movie(s) himself so that he
could retain the most control over the franchise---and so he could
rake in the most MONEY too

Don wrote:

I suspect Fox wanted a sequel after the first one hit...

Yeah---they wanted a sequel SO BADLY that when they found out Lucas was making ESB
all by himself, they gladly got involved JUST to distribute the film---and by the end of filming,
when Lucas was few million short of being able to complete ESB, and the banks wouldn't help him,
FOX bent over BACKWARDS by not only lending Lucas the last bit of the money, but also doing that
with no strings attached, allowing Lucas the same freedoms he had BEFORE borrowing the money
---which they did in fear that Lucas was going to run to another distributor to put out ESB.

"Lucas was ready with a sequel?" you say?

You BET he was...

...that and a few OTHER things!



Oh...and regarding....

His galaxy is a REAL big place, and there were a lot of loose ends after the first film.

You're missing the POINT with this. The "loose ends" as you termed them were, in fact,
the ENTIRE ending to LUKE'S STORY which was already plotted---i.e. the ressurection
of the JEDI ---a plot which was sidetracked (and essentially cut off) by the last minute
addition of the FIRST DEATH STAR BATTLE which originally wasn't a part of the "LUKE" story
until the very end---an end where Vader also kills his master to save his son (also already written).

Jeez----didn't you guys ever go to Sunday School?

I mean, read about STAR WARS history?