Actually,Palpatine is a mean s.o.b. if you think about it. He had Anakin kill Dooku with no regrets just to have a new apprentice. With what happened in ESB he's probably thinking to himself"Yeah,I'll get Luke to kill Vader and have myself a new apprentice who doesn't look like something from KFC. And if that doesn't work,Vader will kill this snot nosed brat and I'll have one less problem to deal with." He's so arrogant,he's not thinking about option three,one of those two killing him instead.
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Actually,Palpatine is a mean s.o.b. if you think about it. He had Anakin kill Dooku with no regrets just to have a new apprentice. With what happened in ESB he's probably thinking to himself"Yeah,I'll get Luke to kill Vader and have myself a new apprentice who doesn't look like something from KFC. And if that doesn't work,Vader will kill this snot nosed brat and I'll have one less problem to deal with." He's so arrogant,he's not thinking about option three,one of those two killing him instead. -
Overlooking the flaws is a fundemental part of being a fan of something...anyone that knows me will tell you how much of a fan I can be( I LOOOVE THE STAR WARS)...but i'm willing to listen to other peoples criticisms as it can create a stimulating debate. I personally hate it in some war movies when they use the wrong type of armoured vehicle or aircraft, but it doesn't detract too much from my enjoyment of the movie.
I hate the fact that Han shoots first and there are nigling flaws (Jabba's missing/extra fingers etc) but on the whole love the movies, EU, toys, comics...everything....its what makes us fans...Knowledge can help educate and change the opinions of people "not in the Know", which is why so many fans devour all and sundry about our beloved subjects.
There will always be people that dislike the object of your devotion just as you proberly dislike something someone else adores ( I am not a fan of Friends for example), and that is why debate sometimes springs up...God forbid if someone posts they hate Mego though...they would get a knife to the eye...as Frankie would eloquantly say.ENGLISH AND DAMN PROUD OF IT British by birth....English by the grace of God. Yes Jamie...it is big isn't it....Comment
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It's not that we don't love Star Wars or Lucas as an artist but the technology makes it so easy it's sort'a like the Orwellian fear of controlling and distorting information. Granted this is an entertainment subject, ( because political and religious speech are vebotten on these boards-Orwellian indeed! ) but the fact that so many people can complain about these changes in ST & SW seems to confirm if it aint broken-don't fix it.Comment
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I have to stick my head in here and thank del for writing out her long list of well-considered rebuttals to the common problems people -- casual viewers and fans alike -- have with the STAR WARS films. As a moderator at theforce.net message boards, I see and participate in discussions of this kind ad absurdium. Ultimately I've concluded two things: One, you can talk yourself in or out of any perceived plot-hole or flaw in the films; and two, such perceived flaws are purely subjective, varying wildly from one person to another. My thinking is that it takes imagination to see a plot-hole; why not use those same faculties of imagination to devise an explanation?Comment
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It's not that we don't love Star Wars or Lucas as an artist but the technology makes it so easy it's sort'a like the Orwellian fear of controlling and distorting information. Granted this is an entertainment subject, ( because political and religious speech are vebotten on these boards-Orwellian indeed! ) but the fact that so many people can complain about these changes in ST & SW seems to confirm if it aint broken-don't fix it.
the face of the success of the new trilogy and SPECIAL EDITIONS of the old one
is that if it ain't broke don't fix it----or (in this case) don't whine about it
Misinformation?----with respect, I know you gave yourself an "out" by acknowledging
that its "entertainment", but I still can't buy the resentment and hostility
from the purist STAR WARS fans with the redos---its only a movie---and if you ONLY like
the old versions of the movies...well... then just watch those.
In other words...why waste your time picking apart the new edited/enhanced versions
when you have the old ones readily available? (i.e. live & let live)
One, you can talk yourself in or out of any perceived plot-hole or flaw in the films; and two, such perceived flaws are purely subjective, varying wildly from one person to another. My thinking is that it takes imagination to see a plot-hole; why not use those same faculties of imagination to devise an explanation?
thing that unlike 99% of the other stuff is really "unexplainable"----here's
a suggestion in the face of that one (seemingly) unfortunate Lucas tweak: "live with it"Last edited by huedell; Jan 2, '08, 1:01 PM."No. No no no no no no. You done got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna'. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. I think I'll scoot over here right by this winda', let this beautiful carriage rock me to sleep, and dream about how lucky I am." - Chris MannixComment
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Misinformation?----with respect, I know you gave yourself an "out" by acknowledging that its "entertainment", but I still can't buy the resentment and hostility from the purist STAR WARS fans with the redos---its only a movie---and if you ONLY like the old versions of the movies...well... then just watch those.
In other words...why waste your time picking apart the new edited/enhanced versions when you have the old ones readily available? (i.e. live & let live)
The original, unaltered SW films are available on the latest DVD releases as a sort of 2 pack. The originals included are only available in this 2-fer format and are only transfers of the versions done for laser-disc and not re-scanned negatives for superior DVD quality. There are no singular, high-quality, un-special editions on DVD in circulation as singular releases. Unless you fork over more cash for something you already owned you can't even see the laser-disc transfers. If you don't have the original you cannot enjoy it or even make that comparison.
Lucas said he wanted to restore lost footage that he felt should have been included in the original Star Wars and replace bad spfx with better quality spfx in certain places. This is not true. What is being done here is the films are being changed years after they are made and the changes continue to occur. There seems to be no end to the changes being made to these films. For example the Han/Jabba scene is restored using the creature Jabba Lucas intended instead of the Scottish actor from the original footage. Boba Fett is in the scene tho he was never in SW. Boba Fett was introduced in an animated short in the SW Holiday Special. Lucasfilm does not even acknowledge the existence of this made for tv bomb. It is a cheat to do this.
We don't need Boba Fett introduced in SW. We can accept him in ESB without knowledge of the cartoon. So why make the change? It is unecessary. How about the replacement of the Emperor in ESB? Dialogue is changed and as pointed out in this thread it makes no logical sense. Contradictions occur because the rule, there can be only 2 Sith, no more, no less, was never part of the original trilogy. Add it in to the other films and it creates glaring holes in story logic. Why should Vader seek to turn Luke to the Dark side if it means his own death? It plain bad story logic. So what we have here is a pattern developing where embarassing mistakes are covered up creating even more mistakes which are even more embarassing. Misinformation is put out and liberties are taken with the material when changes need not be made.
Now this is entertainment. Should we really be such sticklers. Maybe we should. Just because we have this sort of Choose Your Own Adventure version of Star Wars Films does not improve them at all. What was of a certain quality is now being dragged down to lower quality. Should we just let this go...? The answer is most certainly no.Last edited by johnmiic; Jan 2, '08, 2:03 PM.Comment
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As you say if it's only a movie why defend the special editions?
To me it makes more sense to say something is "good" ( see, I LIKE the SEs)
and to add that if you don't like that given thing ----then don't watch it--
--than to complain about "revisionist" tactics, which (again) you aren't forced to watch.
The fact that Lucas has been inaccurate about his business plans?
Well, I think the fanboys of the world have to accept that's the world
of business, or accept "reality" or whatever you wanna call it--
--certainly 30-somethings should know this by now
-----either way----the originals are/were available by hook or by crook at any time
Now this is entertainment. Should we really be such sticklers.
Not when your opinion doesn't change the fact that we ALL have we want to
watch at our fingertips.
Just because we have this sort of Choose Your Own Adventure version of Star
Wars Films does not improve them at all.
a "false statement" as its been proven that STAR WARS fans like myself do indeed
see the changes as "improvements""No. No no no no no no. You done got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna'. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. I think I'll scoot over here right by this winda', let this beautiful carriage rock me to sleep, and dream about how lucky I am." - Chris MannixComment
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Regarding johnmiic's excoriation of the Emperor/Vader/Rule of Two/Sith apprentice scenario, it actually makes completely logical sense, once you take all the pieces out and examine them closely. Here it is broken down for simplicity's sake:
1. The Emperor wants to replace Vader with Luke (because Vader is a machine-man and not as powerful as Anakin once was)
2. Vader wants to replace the Emperor himself and rule the Galaxy, with Luke as his apprentice (Vader makes this offer to Luke in ESB in no uncertain terms)
3. Both Vader and the Emperor know the other's intentions, as these accord with the Rule of Two (one master, one apprentice)
4. Vader stops Luke from killing the Emperor in ROTJ because /Vader/ must be the one to do it, in order to take the Emperor's place as Sith Master
5. Luke does not turn to the dark side, foiling the two Sith's plans for knocking each other off
6. The Emperor falls back on Plan B: Kill Luke and keep the machine-man Vader as his apprentice
7. Vader has a moment of doubt, decides that he loves Luke, and Anakin (his good side) is reborn within him. This abrogates all Sithly contracts, as he proves by destroying the Emperor with no ulterior motive but saving his son.Comment
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Again, I thank you Vortigern (as I did del earlier) for having the patience
to do what I think is a waste of my time
Your Sith explanation makes pefect sense and aside from the (delicious)
idea that VADER must be the one to kill the Emperor to fufill his vision
of The Sith...well, I felt the exact same way. Nice articulation. Very."No. No no no no no no. You done got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna'. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. I think I'll scoot over here right by this winda', let this beautiful carriage rock me to sleep, and dream about how lucky I am." - Chris MannixComment
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Regarding johnmiic's excoriation of the Emperor/Vader/Rule of Two/Sith apprentice scenario, it actually makes completely logical sense, once you take all the pieces out and examine them closely. Here it is broken down for simplicity's sake:
1. The Emperor wants to replace Vader with Luke (because Vader is a machine-man and not as powerful as Anakin once was)
2. Vader wants to replace the Emperor himself and rule the Galaxy, with Luke as his apprentice (Vader makes this offer to Luke in ESB in no uncertain terms)
3. Both Vader and the Emperor know the other's intentions, as these accord with the Rule of Two (one master, one apprentice)
4. Vader stops Luke from killing the Emperor in ROTJ because /Vader/ must be the one to do it, in order to take the Emperor's place as Sith Master
5. Luke does not turn to the dark side, foiling the two Sith's plans for knocking each other off
6. The Emperor falls back on Plan B: Kill Luke and keep the machine-man Vader as his apprentice
7. Vader has a moment of doubt, decides that he loves Luke, and Anakin (his good side) is reborn within him. This abrogates all Sithly contracts, as he proves by destroying the Emperor with no ulterior motive but saving his son.
When Vader told Luke in ESB they could defeat the Emperor and take over themselves- why would anyone really believe what he said? Vader was not a trust-worthy character so I doubt the audience even thought he was telling the truth when he said he was Luke's father. It was the possibility of that statement which enthralled moviegoers until ROTJ came out; not the certainty of it.
When the films were still un-altered and the Emperor tells Luke in ROTJ, kill Vader, kill your own father, so you can take your place beside me as my apperentice. That was a revelation! A major plot-twist. All the while we assumed he would have Vader and Luke serving him. Now we see he's going to toss Vader. Vader didn't even see that coming in the un-altered versions of the films. The Emperor was not officially staing this Rule of Two in ROTJ. No one suspected or thought Vader would be dispensed with by the Emperor- ever-because the Rule of Two was not written into the films yet. The Rule of Two was stated in Episode 1 and produced noticable groans from the audience; not necessarily devoted or even rabid fan-boys but moviegoers in general. It was nearly the same groan heard when Ben reveals Leia was Lukes sister, after they had kissed each other at least 2x's before. We all knew full well Luke was in love with the Princess. This was Du Ex Macchina for who should the Princess choose as a husband: Luke or Han. It was an easy way out.
Every time Lucas makes a change he convolutes the storyline even more and you have to step back and analyze it all to see if it makes sense. Certainly good films are thought provoking. Star Wars used to be thought provoking. I thought after Attack of the Clones he had returned the mystique to the saga. there were so many un-answered questions after Episode 2. Star Wars has descended to a point where you have to keep looking it over to see if it all makes sense whenever a change is made.Last edited by johnmiic; Jan 2, '08, 5:23 PM.Comment
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Maybe Vortigern will address the flaws in your fault-finding there johnmiic
---I disagree with most of what you pointed out but don't have the patience
to justify each thing I disagree with as, like Vortigern mentioned earlier,
you could actually do that yourself if you were so inclined---
However, I will address not agreeing with the idea of Luke & Leia being siblings
as an "easy way out" for Leia's hookup with Han when actually it was just the
product of a great plot twist.
You may "groan" at the fact that Luke's sister is Leia when its already
said that Vader is Luke's father----but you have to remember that
the same 6 hr. story was originally meant to be told in about 2 hours
and some things benefit from the 6 hr. telling and some things suffer from that---
---i.e. The drama and buildup of Han vs. Luke for Leia's affections
was really that much better in a SIX hour telling when the audience is
"messed with" with a kiss etc. if Luke DIDN'T kiss Leia THAT would be a missed
opportunity for that buildup and inferior writing on Lucas' part
(or whoever is credited for the incestual scenarios) I think its a great aspect of the
STAR WARS story."No. No no no no no no. You done got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna'. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. I think I'll scoot over here right by this winda', let this beautiful carriage rock me to sleep, and dream about how lucky I am." - Chris MannixComment
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The Leia being Luke's sister never bother me. You sit and think about it,it makes sense. There was another,who else would it be? Han,Lando,someone else? You pretty much knew it was Leia at the end Of Empire. How else would she have heard Luke calling out to her if she didn't have the Force?Comment
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johnmiic, the logic of the thing is fully apparent only when you apply the Rule of Two as we now know it through the prequels. You are free to dismiss the idea if you like, based on your perception of audience groaning (which I must admit I missed in my 8 theatrical viewings of TPM, though they groaned aplenty at Jar Jar) or a lack of creative integrity, but I for one find it an intriguing sci-fi/fantasy concept. If you'll indulge my explication of the idea one last time, my hope is that you'll find a new angle on the material that you never saw before ... something that happens with me and STAR WARS almost every time I sit and contemplate some facet of it.
So, while both Vader and the Emperor are aware of the others' plans, they continue on course with this secret agenda mostly unspoken. However, at one point the Emperor's plans are made clear, when he tells Luke: "Strike me down with all of your anger, and take your father's place at my side!"
So in the first place we have Vader making the offer for Luke to kill the Emperor, join Vader and rule the galaxy together; and in the second we have the Emperor insisting that Luke replace Vader and join him at his side. What other answer could there be that reconciles these two opposing agendas? This is the Rule of Two in perfect completion.
To conclude, when Luke strikes at the Emperor, Vader blocks the blow for a number of reasons: Because Luke is not ready to turn to the dark side (as the novelization states), and a single act of killing the Emperor would not turn him yet; because Vader must still appear to be doing his duty to protect the Emperor, while he awaits the proper moment to kill the Master himself; and, possibly (though this last element is only my theory) because Vader must kill the Emperor himself if he, and not Luke, is to become the Sith Master.
I invite anyone to disagree and continue in their opinion that the films are increasingly flawed and confused, a jumbled mess of incompetent writing, but having analyzed them in depth, researched their origins in myth and archetype, and read commentaries and interviews by the creators stretching back into my childhood, I can say with conviction that the original three movies' internal consistency utterly stands up to scrutiny. (I agree Leia's last-minute redo as Luke's sister is an obvious ploy at dovetailing the character arcs, but ultimately I think it works.)
Again I am not slamming anyone here but it doesn't make complete and logical sense. The flaw in that argument is point #3. As RussG points out The Emperor tells/discusses with Vader, turning Luke to the Dark Side. That's pretty much like, for example, telling your employee to their face, we have to hire that young kid so I can replace you, and you're gonna help me do it, when they know replace = kill. There's no reason for Vader to serve the Emperor if he was hgoing to be thrown away like a used kleenex. It violates common sense just like horror films where dumb teenagers walk into obvious death traps and are killed. Also it's sloppy writing to have a gaff like that and expect people to work it out themselves after the film.
When Vader told Luke in ESB they could defeat the Emperor and take over themselves- why would anyone really believe what he said? Vader was not a trust-worthy character so I doubt the audience even thought he was telling the truth when he said he was Luke's father. It was the possibility of that statement which enthralled moviegoers until ROTJ came out; not the certainty of it.
When the films were still un-altered and the Emperor tells Luke in ROTJ, kill Vader, kill your own father, so you can take your place beside me as my apperentice. That was a revelation! A major plot-twist. All the while we assumed he would have Vader and Luke serving him. Now we see he's going to toss Vader. Vader didn't even see that coming in the un-altered versions of the films. The Emperor was not officially staing this Rule of Two in ROTJ. No one suspected or thought Vader would be dispensed with by the Emperor- ever-because the Rule of Two was not written into the films yet. The Rule of Two was stated in Episode 1 and produced noticable groans from the audience; not necessarily devoted or even rabid fan-boys but moviegoers in general. It was nearly the same groan heard when Ben reveals Leia was Lukes sister, after they had kissed each other at least 2x's before. We all knew full well Luke was in love with the Princess. This was Du Ex Macchina for who should the Princess choose as a husband: Luke or Han. It was an easy way out.
Every time Lucas makes a change he convolutes the storyline even more and you have to step back and analyze it all to see if it makes sense. Certainly good films are thought provoking. Star Wars used to be thought provoking. I thought after Attack of the Clones he had returned the mystique to the saga. there were so many un-answered questions after Episode 2. Star Wars has descended to a point where you have to keep looking it over to see if it all makes sense whenever a change is made.Comment
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I just wanted to say that I wasn't trying to slam Star Wars when I made my comments. I'm a huge fan and have been since 1977. There was a time when I would get very angry if anyone said anything bad about Star Wars. But as I've gotten older, and Star Wars has always been a part of my life, it has become almost like a friend. I know that sounds odd, but what I mean is that I poke fun at Star Wars, and sometimes make fun of it or mock it because I really do love it. Much like someone might poke fun at a friend. Just because you give a friend a hard time doesn't mean that you don't like them. Only Star Wars is a movie franchise and not a real person. (I'm not that far gone yet )
I love all of the movies, all versions to some extent, the original trilogy more than the prequels, and the original versions more than the special editions. But the fact is, I love Star Wars in all it's forms. Why else would I force myself to rewatch the Holiday Special time and again in an attempt to learn to like it? By the way, I still can't watch it all at once, but I try.
I realize that Leia really didn't "always know" that Luke was her brother. It was the dialogue that I was making fun of. I find fault with stuff in Star Wars, but I really do love it. I'm in the pro-Star Wars camp. There might be some flaws, but over all, I think the Star Wars series is top notch. Great points on all the nitpicking too, everyone. Great explanations. And that comment is guaranteed 100% sarcasm free!
But why did Lucas have to establish that Yoda knew Chewbacca?
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