John Nathan Turner- DEVIL or SAINT ? ... more Who talk

[Mikey]

Devil or Saint ?

Well I guess either side is a bit extreme, but i'm wondering ........
If it wasn't for JNT taking over as producer of the Classic Series back in 1980, would the series have survived past 1981 ?

I tend to believe it would have survived, but no more than a year or so.
It was going downhill in popularity, no doubt.

I think the trickle down effect of this ....... Love him or hate him, without JNT exending the series to 1989, today I think the classic series would be looked upon in a whole different light.
By far not as popular, and perhaps even as a wink-wink joke--- considering most decent SFX on the series was introduced in the 80's.

I think Turner took a lot of liberty's with the mythos and premise of the classic series, but stayed in bounds enough to make the classic series the legend that it today.

I would put JNT in the same catagory as Freiberger.

Frieberger was King Midas in reverse, but he did extend the run of many classic shows and stayed enough in bounds where most of his stuff isn't really hated... Just snickered at sometimes.

[palitoy]

Hmmmmm, interesting thoughts Mike. While I'm not huge fan of the bulk of his work, I think originally he pulled the show out of a rut and refreshed it.

I really welcomed a lot of changes that now, seem sort of dated, the synthesizer theme song, the companions who looked like they stepped out of a music video, although that's hardly his fault.

Davison seemed like a good choice as well, young and very different, even though I must admit to not enjoying the Davison era as much previous efforts, I thought the show was still enjoyable.

What ended it for me was the Colin Baker era's dark tone, the show became very violent and JNT seemed to want to make the Doctor kind of unlikable. I'm sure it worked for many folks (Mike!) but it turned me right off.

The McCoy era seemed to be JNT trying to steer the ship back into classic territory with mixed results but I loved the added mystery, the relationship with Ace (kind of mirrors the Rose relationship of modern who) and the fact that the Doctor seemed more crafty than usual. The vest with the question marks was awful and best to forget the Happiness Patrol.

So I guess, he can be argued as a Devil or Saint, anyone with a tenure that long on a show is bound make good and bad decisions.

Did you ever hear that had the show remained on, JNT's Doctor choice was Richard Griffiths?

[Surfsup]

He started work on the show when it was in dire straits and just made things worse. I guess he had the best intentions at heart but ended up making it look like cheap panto. He was definately out of his depth.

I personally think the show was never the same after Philip Hinchcliffe left, it didn't help that the BBC were put under pressure to tone things down at the time either.

The only shining light from the JNT era was the first change in the theme tune. I spoke to Peter Howell a few months back at a Radiophonic exhibition. He was the only one brave enough from the workshop to take the task on as the other composers were too scared to go near it.

[palitoy]

I personally think the show was never the same after Philip Hinchcliffe left, it didn't help that the BBC were put under pressure to tone things down at the time either.

I remember reading the Mary Whitehouse articles from years back, what's weird is I found the show got more violence and gore during the JNT years, not right away mind you.

The Hinchecliff stuff wow, what can i say? A lot of my favorourites reside in his era.

[Mikey]

For sure, the show got way more violent after JNT took over and progressively got to the point it wasn't even the same series anymore.

I look back on Troughton, Pertwee and Baker doing some of the stuff that Colin did and I can't imagine it.

Perwee's FUNNY Venusian Karate was about the extend of the old style violence... and THAT made you laugh --- HI-- YAHH !!!!!!!!

I really can't imagine what she would complain about in the pre-Davison years ?

I think as long as the BAD guy acts bad and the Good Guy acts good I think they could get away with a lot more stuff.

The prob with Colin, he was almost a good guy acting bad.

[palitoy]

Yeah Pertwee's Venusian Martial arts were more an extension of his "James Bond" persona and really never used to do anyone real harm. Heh, sometimes you could see the stuntmen hitting their marks to tumble.

Miles away from Davison's Doctor shooting a Cyberman in Earthshock or some of the things Colin Baker did. I know that was sort of the plan, a disturbed Doctor, it just didn't work for me.

[johnmiic]

The show would likely have surved without JNT through the 80's and probably even beyond. he did a very good job bringing the show out of Tom Bakers shadow. Tom was a very hard act to follow. Also no actor had satyed as long as Tom. He had perhaps 4-5 different styles in his tenure, ( which might be measured by the changing of his companions: Sara, Leela, Romana1, Romana 2, Tegan, Nyssa, Adric.) I think the only comparable Doctor in that sense was William Hartnell. He had more changes in companions than Tom. In Hartnell's era they made many more stories per year, 45 or so I think.

I think there were many good stories in the JNT era. What probably should have happened was Davidson should have stayed a 4th year. JNT should have bowed out that year. Either Colin or someone else would have suceeded Davidson and established a new style and they show would have gone on until the next change.

The thing was as a producer JNT had managed to become a "personality" connected with the show. No producer had done this before. The actor who played the Doctor was always the personality in DW. JNT put a spotlight on himself and the show and kept it there. Good when things are going well, bad when you have run out of ideas and overstayed your welcome.

I know the Hincliffe years are regarded as some for being the best Gothic Horror episodes of DW but you have to regard it as one period in the greater context. The style of the show, like the actor, the companions, the villains, comes and goes. As good as that period was it was gong to end and a new style take it's place anyway.

[Mikey]

Also no actor had satyed as long as Tom. He had perhaps 4-5 different styles in his tenure,

That's an interesting thought, John
It is true......
In his first few seasons he acted erratic... Mostly being the lunatic genius.
In his mid seasons he calmed down quite a bit.
By his last seasons, he seemed to be depressed or even mad.

[palitoy]

I know the Hincliffe years are regarded as some for being the best Gothic Horror episodes of DW but you have to regard it as one period in the greater context. The style of the show, like the actor, the companions, the villains, comes and goes. As good as that period was it was gong to end and a new style take it's place anyway.

John you bring up some very good points, had Turner left after four seasons of Davison it might have been regarded much differently than it is. I guess knowing when to quit is important because even with the modern show, DW seems to thrive on change.

As for Mike's Freidberger reference to describe Turner, I'd use a different one, Rick Berman.

[Mikey]

As for Mike's Freidberger reference to describe Turner, I'd use a different one, Rick Berman.

Yea, I like that better

[johnmiic]

Thanks Guys! My estimation of Davidsons tenure is based on a comment he made before leaving. He said he decided he would call it quits after 3 years in part because the stories were not what he liked in the second year.

However in his 3rd year, he said they improved and he regretted cutting it short at 3 years. If he had stuck it out for a 4th year likely they would have written more stories for him-perhaps even better quality. As it was they had to shift gears and write new stories for Colin's Doctor and he was undefined. This, I think, is in part is why the show went downward. Not knowing what Colin's Doctor was going to be like they wrote wildly different stories than any other Doctor had ever had. If JNT had left at the end of a Davidson 4th yr and a regeneration had occurred a totally new producer and new team would have written different stories from what Colin ultimately got. We might not have had the multi-colored Colin and coat. ( This all sort'a sounds like a time travel scenarion too).

Rob does have a very strong point here.

The Beeb was going thru changes. the management at the Beeb was DW's biggest enemy in the 80's and likely they would have cancelled the show anyway. The ratings for Attack of the Cybermen were very healthy tho. I think 9million was quoted by DWB at the time? That's not so far from the highest rated story ever, City of Death, 14 million quoted. Even with good ratings they may have axed it as they really werent supportive of it.

Lets also consider the effect of new technology aslo. The VCR was new. I heard some people say they would tape DW but never get around to watching it. That also would have had some effect on the show. There has been considerable debate in the US over whether a show you tape counts as a show viewed.

[johnmiic]

Well I am paraphrasing from an old interview I read of Davidson but you could always ask him the next time you spaek with him.