Reply to Bill Willingham

[Airdave817]

Steven Grant posted a response to Bill Willingham's recent editorial over on Big Hollywood.

Take a look here.

My question is - what is the next evolutionary stage for the (super)hero?

And a follow up, Is there really no way to make Superman fresh, interesting and compelling?

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

EVERYTHING is cyclical. Superheroes have been going all "dark and gritty" for a while, but it's only a matter of time 'til you see the old school "BAM! POW!" supers dominate. It's the "kids playing soccer" analogy: eventually someone will do something very upbeat, kid friendly and brightly coloured, it'll hit, then EVERYBODY will do stories like that. For a while. Then someone'll do a dark gritty story and THAT will become the norm. Again.

You're already seeing the beginning. The fact that an article like these can be taken seriously AT ALL is a sign. Would anyone have listened to someone saying "superheroes should be upbeat!" ten or fifteen years ago?

>what is the next evolutionary stage for the (super)hero?

Well.... it's not exactly an evolution. There is no ultimate end. It's a cycle, with different styles and techniques making the rounds....

>Is there really no way to make Superman fresh, interesting and compelling?

Well.... no, not really. There are a few problems with that sort of thing. Biggest of all is that the book is perpetual. They'll keep printing them as long as they sell. Because of that you CAN'T really shake things up. And when you think of the movies, toys, marketing, name recognition.... you can't stray too far from the basic premise.

So right of the bat you're kinda hamstrung. The next problem is the fans. Nowadays they're trying to cater to the long term fans AND the new ones. Like we were discussing in another thread, once people have an idea of a character in their head it's insanely difficult to change it. So you have to keep it fresh and new, without changing anything.

Good luck. The sad fact is that eventually a long term fan is gonna OUTGROW Superman. You'll have seen every possible permutation within the established framework. For a new fan, who hasn't readt the last twenty years of comic this is okay; but to a new fan it starts getting dull. BUT if you change anything the old fans will grouse. Catch-22. Especially when you see how absolutely unforgiving some of those fans can be.

[johnmiic]

>Is there really no way to make Superman fresh, interesting and compelling?<

There might be. No one has ever taken the Superman concept back to its roots. I have heard one of the strong elements of early Superman is that he considered himself an outsider. Even tho he looks like us he knows he isnt so despite being on a planet full of people he feels he is really alone. This make a nice balance with Batman who is a loner and driven by revenge. Also this alone-ness has been useful in re-invigorationg the British series Doctor Who.

[kingdom warrior]

>Is there really no way to make Superman fresh, interesting and compelling?<

There might be. No one has ever taken the Superman concept back to its roots. I have heard one of the strong elements of early Superman is that he considered himself an outsider. Even tho he looks like us he knows he isnt so despite being on a planet full of people he feels he is really alone. This make a nice balance with Batman who is a loner and driven by revenge. Also this alone-ness has been useful in re-invigorationg the British series Doctor Who.

Funny I was thinking the same way. The only way to make Superman fresh is to big him back to his roots.

Early Superman dealt with many social issues of the time. In his first appearance he actually deals with Domestic violence and saving the life of a wrongly convicted man. Clark is a hard nose reporter that alone is an area that can be easilyexplored. There was also a bit of a Sci-Fi element him coming from a race of superior beings.

Of course there's also the difficulty of writing an all powerful Superhero who can practically do anything. One of the things I like about the Fleicher cartoons is although he can do amazing things it takes and incredible amount of effort on his part. Early Superman had this same thing.

John Bryne's Back to basic Superman had some of this.....but his concepts have been lost over the years.

[ctc]

>No one has ever taken the Superman concept back to its roots.

But is that really making him fresh and interesting, or is it rehashing the "good ol days?"

Don C.

[kingdom warrior]

>No one has ever taken the Superman concept back to its roots.

But is that really making him fresh and interesting, or is it rehashing the "good ol days?"

Don C.

Is there really anything fresh that could be done without being silly? and hasn't Superman really just been a rehash since the 80's?

One of the worst Superman Storylines was Doomsday. Talk about hype with no substance.

[WannabeMego]

I'll chirp in (even though I'm not a huge Superman Fan)...

Bringing him back to his roots AND getting back to moral basics plays to the characters strengths...

If you dig deep into any modern story, you can find the same basic moral principles...

As an Alien, Superman's initial views are very similar to a child's...he is in awe of the most simplest fragile things & thoughts with a pure & innocent approach to almost everything he does...

...many things we take for granted or forget as adults...

Superman reminds us everyday what it means to truly be good.

I find many similarities between Superman and Captain America...they both were born from that period in our history where the idea of what was Good and what was Evil was clear.

Both characters lived by their morale code...in and out of costume.

Nowadays we find that to be very corny (Uncool) and naive (Weak) instead of Heroic and Honorable.

...but deep down inside, I believe thats what we all want & miss (to be Honorable & Heroic)...

It's not easy to write that kinda stuff without sounding corny, but it can be done...MOST of the modern takes (to me) have taken the easy rode and chose to make him more physically mortal (or weaker)...so he appears to be more like us...

Personally, I would emphasize what already makes him the same as you or I...

- How we Love or Care for Someone
- How we Protect the ones we Love
- How we Teach by our Actions
- How there is Strength in Restraint

...and then us his Actions of (Physical) Strength as something we can achieve (as a metaphor) and rise up to...

Just My 2 Cents (If anyone from DC is listening)

[ctc]

>Is there really anything fresh that could be done without being silly?

No. But that's not the real problem. Superman (and his progeny) are INHERENTLY silly. Dude flies around with his undies on the outside of his tights, and people STILL take him seriously. And all he has to do to disguise himself is put on a pair of glasses. And pants. This however, is okay since it's such an ingrained part of the superhero genre. To tie in with another comic thread, it's internally consistant; which is the REAL key. Not "realism" or "not-silliness." Internal consitancy. Problem is; what folks come to expect, and therefore consider consistant is REALLY narrowly defined. There's a lot of stuff that makes perfect sense, given the constants of the DC universe, but would make the current hardcores cry. Anything that REMOTELY smacks of silly, light-hearted or *gasp* juvenile is poo-poo'd. A situation I blame on immaturity and self-consciousness among the fans. (And a lot of inertia, given how many people will keep buying a book long after it stops being entertaining.) There's a pretty good comment on that in the replies to the original article.

So you get an ever shrinking amount of "acceptable" stories 'cos even theugh they clamour for new and different, the core fans won't actually dig something new and different. And you scare away new fans 'cos the ideas are so watered down and inbred.

>I would emphasize what already makes him the same as you or I...
>- How we Love or Care for Someone
>- How we Protect the ones we Love
>- How we Teach by our Actions
>- How there is Strength in Restraint

....that's pretty much the core of every Japanese comic since the 70's....

Don C.