Batman Forever & Batman and Robin

[Mikey]

These are my two top favorite Batman movies to date.

Why does almost EVERYONE hate them so much ?

[Liu Bei]

These are my two top favorite Batman movies to date.

Why does almost EVERYONE hate them so much ?

Probably because they just weren’t very good. I liked Batman Forever as a kid, but never because I thought it was “good.”

Putting nipples on the bat suits and having the car drive up walls was bad enough, but Schumacher intentionally making the films more campy took the franchise in a direction most fans weren’t thrilled about.

As a character, Batman has consistently been the darkest character around since Frank Miller’s “dark and gritty” Dark Knight stories. For better or for worse, that’s been Batman’s image ever since. Most fans expect films to respect the dark lore that has been built up around the character for almost half a century now.

You can get everything else wrong and still be liked, if you can get that part right. Burton and Nolan got it right, and Schumacher didn’t.

[Mikey]

^--- growing up, as a kid of the 70's --- BTW i'm a non comic book boy, ….. all I knew of Batman was the '66 TV series and his appearance on SuperFriends …

I think Batman fans should be more tolerant of peeps like me

[KnightDetective]

Despite having a number of issues with his films, I was curious to see Schumacher do one more.

It struck me that there seemed to be a progression running through the film series, Batman '89 and Batman Returns represented the early '40's vigilante era, Batman Forever / Batman and Robin covered the lighter '50's / '60's / Adam West era, even pointedly including a Burt Wardian line of gag dialogue.

At the end of Batman and Robin, Bruce seemed to have finally made peace with his troubled past, realized the importance of family and was ready to become the levelheaded globe hopping Detective Batman of the '70's. I thought the next film might send the kids off to college and lean into Schumacher's detective crime drama experience.

Alas, later interviews seemed to indicate no hint of such a plan. Just seeing what I wanted to, I guess. Missed opportunity.

[enyawd72]

I'm on record as loving the Schumacher films...with Batman and Robin being my favorite. Arnold's Mr. Freeze is my favorite cinematic bat-villain.

I actually can't stand most current iterations of Batman. Some fans take him far too seriously to the point of absurdity, and in so much media, he's just a dour, depressing, unlikable jerk.
The reality is the entire notion of Batman IS absurd.

I mean, if the point of his costume is to scare criminals into thinking he's a giant bat, well...once everyone in Gotham knows about him, and knows he's just some guy dressed up in a Halloween costume, the jig is up.
He's not fooling anyone anymore, so running around going "Boo!" gets a little ridiculous. Now, him wearing a disguise to protect his identity I can get behind.

That's why I'm a much bigger fan of the Caped Crusader than the Dark Knight.

[Nostalgiabuff]

i love Batman Forever. B&R not so much. I thought BF had just enough camp to make it a fun movie, but with B&R it went over the top. I have read that it was not Schumacher's choice to do the camp. the studio wanted that

[Liu Bei]

^--- growing up, as a kid of the 70's --- BTW i'm a non comic book boy, ….. all I knew of Batman was the '66 TV series and his appearance on SuperFriends …

I think Batman fans should be more tolerant of peeps like me

I actually like Batman ‘66 a lot, and loved it as a kid. However, thr show isn’t really a great representation of the character or his world, especially the character as it has existed since Frank Miller’s Batman burst onto the scene.

Miller’s Batman, I think, in many ways was a direct response to that version of Batman, as comic fans and those working in the industry really didn’t enjoy the idea that comics or comic book characters were campy, goofy entertainment. For many years you had some very good talent working very hard to elevate the industry from children’s entertainment to serious literature.

I’m not sure how realistic an idea it was, but Batman ‘66 in many ways was everything comic fans didn’t want. I personally like the show, but understand their grief.

[thunderbolt]

I think Frank Miller's Batman needs to go live in its own little corner. Its been blown way out of proportion and has lead to an over darkening of the character and a lot of comics beyond what miller did. This new movie is so dark all they can do at this point is pull back and go the other way. Batman 66 is a good representation of comics in general and the fun that can be had with creativity. Its still visually the most accurate screen representation of the world of Gotham.

[PNGwynne]

oops, double/partial post.

[PNGwynne]

I don't hate the Schumacher films, but I don't much care to rewatch them, either. Personally, that's my definition of a successful film.

Batman '66 captured the outre' aspects of the character and offered something for children as well as adults--something comics did and should still do IMO. It did acknowledge (and poke fun at) some of the conceits of the superhero genre. And it included Robin--the minute Robin is present, Batman changes--New Frontier acknowledged that, too. I see the show, on face value, as a pretty good adaptation on New Look Batman. Some aspects of it--Riddler and Penguin--are still impressive. But I guess I don't appreciate Schumacher's riff on it.

I think, though that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, "modern" Batman is unrecognizable to me. "My" Batman, c. 1970-1985, is still a viable characterization IMO. I welcome that blend of noir, sci-fi, the supernatural, and the bizarre. But I know I'll never see that on film. What we get now is Colin Farrell, ye gods.

At 54, I'm not in the proper demographic, anyway.

[sprytel]

You like what you like... I'm not going to try and talk you out of it... I'm glad you enjoy them!

Personally, my preference is the Burton films. I think they brilliantly embrace the absurdity of superheroes (like Dwayne mentioned) while not making Batman himself into a joke... it is more like a dark and modern fairy tale than "realistic".

[Liu Bei]

I think Frank Miller's Batman needs to go live in its own little corner. Its been blown way out of proportion and has lead to an over darkening of the character and a lot of comics beyond what miller did. This new movie is so dark all they can do at this point is pull back and go the other way. Batman 66 is a good representation of comics in general and the fun that can be had with creativity. Its still visually the most accurate screen representation of the world of Gotham.

I agree the character has become extremely dark, but worse is that “dark and gritty” (Comic-speak for “dark like Miller Batman”) has bled over into most of DC’s other product, especially in film. Every DC movie since Batman Begins has been in that vein, even Man of Steel and Justice League.

I’d personally like to see Batman go back to the Batman we saw in the Neal Adams / Dennis O’Neil era. To me, that was the best version of Batman we ever saw. The stories were adult, respectful of character and reader alike, while not being overly dark and depressing.

I don’t foresee that happening though. I’m afraid emo goth Batman isn’t going anywhere until the character becomes public domain. Then we might see some interesting things happen with the character.

[PNGwynne]

I’d personally like to see Batman go back to the Batman we saw in the Neal Adams / Dennis O’Neil era. To me, that was the best version of Batman we ever saw. The stories were adult, respectful of character and reader alike, while not being overly dark and depressing.

Agreed, Adams/Aparo/Novick/Rogers Batman sticks in my memory, as well as 80's Don Newton.

Maybe the Batman one likes best is the one enjoyed at ten years old. But I think '70s Batman, riffing from Adams and O'Neil, were a great gestalt of character elements. I can't say I always liked O'Neil's editorship or later writing, but he was never a pandering hack.

[Werewolf]

They're not great and have a LOT of problems. I also think Silverstone was really, really miscast as Batgirl. That said, they are not as terrible as some make them out to be and at least they are not so miserably grim dark as the movies that followed. There can obviously be a middle ground between Schumaker's way over the top camp and the wayyyyy overcompensating grimness in the other direction.

BTW: Lego Batman is the best Batman movie.

[Hector]

They both suck. Sorry.