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  • apenutncc1701
    New Member
    • Aug 9, 2009
    • 43

    POA Theory

    I recently re-watched the original 5 POA films and I got to thinking about Cornelius' explanation about how the ape civilization came to be. He stated that it took several centuries for the apes to learn how to talk and take over from the humans, how the first ape to speak was named Aldo, etc. I am wondering if maybe a new timeline was created when they traveled back in time aka like when Spock changed history in Star Trek 2009. This could explain how the humans in the POA tv series still had speech and could function socially unlike the humans in the first 2 films. Thoughts?
  • Megotastrophe
    Permanent Member
    • Jun 29, 2018
    • 2695

    #2
    My original theory based on the 5 original movies...the astronauts brought a virus back from space tha killed cats and dogs and then spread to primates. It made humans less cognitive and the other primates more cognitive. It also caused changes in the shape of the vocal cords that made human speech less possible and ape speech more possible as the virus continued to mutate. When Zira and Cornelius began to circulate in human 20th and 21st Century society, and later Caesar, the more mature virus caused slightly less damage to humans. The new POTA series seems to have been more clear with this mutated virus as the origin and basing it off of a viral Alzheimers treatment seemed even more likely.

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    • apes3978
      Permanent Member
      • Nov 19, 2005
      • 4901

      #3
      Originally posted by apenutncc1701
      I recently re-watched the original 5 POA films and I got to thinking about Cornelius' explanation about how the ape civilization came to be. He stated that it took several centuries for the apes to learn how to talk and take over from the humans, how the first ape to speak was named Aldo, etc. I am wondering if maybe a new timeline was created when they traveled back in time aka like when Spock changed history in Star Trek 2009.
      I feel that when Cornelius, Zira, and Milo went back in time, they started a second, accelerated timeline. Instead of centuries, in the second timeline, it only took a couple of decades for the whole revolution to go on as it did. Man's downfall was quicker too.

      In ESCAPE, Milo is incorrect when he says (paraphrased) "And the Earth will be destroyed, just as we saw it"...

      Because of the three ape-o-nauts going back in time, "the butterfly effect" is in play and things may not necessarily happen just the way they did in the original timeline, leading up to the end events of BENEATH. The Earth may never be destroyed as seen at the end of BENEATH, or if it does indeed get destroyed, it may be a whole other set of circumstances and it could be at an earlier, or later, date.

      Their going back in time may actually prevent their future selves from ever existing, because in a new timeline, their ancestors may never meet, etc... And also, you have to remember that there were no future apes going into the past in the original time-line (as described by Cornelius in ESCAPE)-that's a major change to the way things play out right there...
      Last edited by apes3978; Sep 4, '21, 1:08 AM.

      Comment

      • apes3978
        Permanent Member
        • Nov 19, 2005
        • 4901

        #4
        Originally posted by apenutncc1701
        This could explain how the humans in the POA tv series still had speech and could function socially unlike the humans in the first 2 films. Thoughts?
        I remember on the old Yahoo! message boards, there was a guy that said the TV series was a sequel to BATTLE.

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        • knight errant00
          8 Inch Action Figure
          • Nov 15, 2005
          • 1766

          #5
          Originally posted by apes3978
          I remember on the old Yahoo! message boards, there was a guy that said the TV series was a sequel to BATTLE.
          That's interesting and makes sense. I'm no Apes expert by any stretch, but wasn't there a timeline published in one of the 70s B&W magazines that connected up everything to that point, movies, TV series, and animated show? I seem to remember some point about differences among human capabilities in the being due to not just differences in time period, but geographic region, noting original POTA with Taylor taking place in the northeastern US while the series with Burke and Virdon taking place on the US west coast and theorizing that they may have been in approximately the same time period but that the human population of each area were affected differently, resulting in different capabilities.

          Anybody else remember that?

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          • warlock664
            Persistent Member
            • Feb 15, 2009
            • 2072

            #6
            Originally posted by knight errant00
            That's interesting and makes sense. I'm no Apes expert by any stretch, but wasn't there a timeline published in one of the 70s B&W magazines that connected up everything to that point, movies, TV series, and animated show? I seem to remember some point about differences among human capabilities in the being due to not just differences in time period, but geographic region, noting original POTA with Taylor taking place in the northeastern US while the series with Burke and Virdon taking place on the US west coast and theorizing that they may have been in approximately the same time period but that the human population of each area were affected differently, resulting in different capabilities.

            Anybody else remember that?
            The Timeline you refer to was published in Marvel’s B&W Planet of the Apes #11; I read that mag to pieces as an 11-year-old.
            The original POTA movie and the later TV series occur chronologically about 900 years apart, so no way they happened concurrently (TV show is 3085 AD and the original PLANET movie is either 3955 or 3978, both dates are mentioned in the movie series). The Timeline theorizes that the human population devolves steadily over the nearly 2,000 years between BATTLE and PLANET.

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            • knight errant00
              8 Inch Action Figure
              • Nov 15, 2005
              • 1766

              #7
              Originally posted by warlock664
              The Timeline you refer to was published in Marvel’s B&W Planet of the Apes #11; I read that mag to pieces as an 11-year-old.
              The original POTA movie and the later TV series occur chronologically about 900 years apart, so no way they happened concurrently (TV show is 3085 AD and the original PLANET movie is either 3955 or 3978, both dates are mentioned in the movie series). The Timeline theorizes that the human population devolves steadily over the nearly 2,000 years between BATTLE and PLANET.
              Thanks! that clears up the haze on my 45-year-old memory about that!

              Comment

              • TheXFactor
                Museum Patron
                • Oct 31, 2013
                • 139

                #8
                The live action series couldn't be a sequel to BATTLE because- according to the book that Farrow showed to Virdon and Burke in the first episode- human civilization still existed in the early 2500's whereas BATTLE took place (roughly) around 2019/2020. The animated series (set in 3979) could absolutely be a sequel to BATTLE however- right on down to the fact that the vehicles left behind by the mutant army are likely what started the Apes on the path to the "modern" technology seen in RETURN (with some help with the human population of Ape City, of course). The events of the live action series fall in line with the original downfall of mankind as relayed by Cornelius and Zira in ESCAPE where the entire process (virus to rebellion) took place over the course of 500 years. Which would (again, roughly) place that event sometime in the 2500's. Justifying the existence of the book that Farrow had.

                Comment

                • warlock664
                  Persistent Member
                  • Feb 15, 2009
                  • 2072

                  #9
                  Trying to reconcile the inconsistencies in the movies vs the TV series is difficult.
                  Farrow’s book in the pilot episode of the TV series presents a problem, unless you treat it as a book of fiction (the picture depicts “New York - 2503”, and IIRC is obviously a drawing, not a photograph). Of course, the mere mention of New York City in a book would be confirmation for Virdon and Burke that they are indeed on earth, so the picture doesn’t have to represent how earth cities actually looked in the 2500s.
                  The other major problem the TV series introduces in the pilot that contradicts movie lore is the presence of a dog; Arno, the boy chimp, has a dog that trees Farrow at the beginning, when Virdon, Burke and the dead Jones land in their spacecraft. Of course, we know from the films that a plague wiped out all dogs and cats, which caused humans to take in apes, first as pets and then as servants.
                  Last edited by warlock664; Sep 6, '21, 8:56 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Dark Shadow
                    Creature Of The Night
                    • May 14, 2011
                    • 1027

                    #10
                    I don't think any of it can be reconciled. Since consistency and canon weren't exactly at the forefront of the creative minds beyond anything that was produced after the initial film, the timelines & locations are basically willy-nilly. From my perspective, this is all part of the charm of the franchise.

                    For instance, I love in the TV show episode "The Legacy", they're exploring the ruins of Oakland, CA and they stumble upon a crumbling Transylvanian castle. It captures my imagination and I question what catastrophic event could possibly have merged post-modern Oakland with horse & buggy Transylvania?

                    Or, did Oakland simply slide down the San Andreas Fault and collide with Century City (the hallowed ground of The Conquest Battles), or perhaps vice versa?

                    And I also can't help but wonder did Kraik ever come across this book, and if so, was he actually able to read it?



                    Comment

                    • apes3978
                      Permanent Member
                      • Nov 19, 2005
                      • 4901

                      #11
                      Originally posted by warlock664
                      Farrow’s book in the pilot episode of the TV series presents a problem, unless you treat it as a book of fiction (the picture depicts “New York - 2503”, and IIRC is obviously a drawing, not a photograph). Of course, the mere mention of New York City in a book would be confirmation for Virdon and Burke that they are indeed on earth, so the picture doesn’t have to represent how earth cities actually looked in the 2500s.

                      What you say is true, however, when Farrow shows Virdon the book and Virdon comes across the 'NY 2503' picture, he states to Burke "This picture was taken 500 years after we left..." Which to me says the picture is supposed to be a photograph, not a drawing, and in 1974 with nobody really having video-capabilities, they probably figured it'd pass by so quick that nobody would notice it's a drawing, not still photograph.

                      Of course nowadays with DVD and Blu-ray players, people can study these things closer, but I believe back then, it was a photo of future NYC.

                      Comment

                      • apes3978
                        Permanent Member
                        • Nov 19, 2005
                        • 4901

                        #12
                        Originally posted by TheXFactor
                        The live action series couldn't be a sequel to BATTLE because- according to the book that Farrow showed to Virdon and Burke in the first episode- human civilization still existed in the early 2500's whereas BATTLE took place (roughly) around 2019/2020. The animated series (set in 3979) could absolutely be a sequel to BATTLE however- right on down to the fact that the vehicles left behind by the mutant army are likely what started the Apes on the path to the "modern" technology seen in RETURN (with some help with the human population of Ape City, of course). The events of the live action series fall in line with the original downfall of mankind as relayed by Cornelius and Zira in ESCAPE where the entire process (virus to rebellion) took place over the course of 500 years. Which would (again, roughly) place that event sometime in the 2500's. Justifying the existence of the book that Farrow had.
                        I'm more of the opinion of what you state here as far as the downfall of Man.

                        I just remember Rory (Haristas) on the old Yahoo! groups making the suggestion that the TV series was a sequel to BATTLE- My guess is he said that because he really didn't care for either from what I remember, I don't think he said it in any way to try to time-line things together...

                        Comment

                        • TheXFactor
                          Museum Patron
                          • Oct 31, 2013
                          • 139

                          #13
                          Originally posted by warlock664
                          Trying to reconcile the inconsistencies in the movies vs the TV series is difficult.
                          Farrow’s book in the pilot episode of the TV series presents a problem, unless you treat it as a book of fiction (the picture depicts “New York - 2503”, and IIRC is obviously a drawing, not a photograph). Of course, the mere mention of New York City in a book would be confirmation for Virdon and Burke that they are indeed on earth, so the picture doesn’t have to represent how earth cities actually looked in the 2500s.
                          The other major problem the TV series introduces in the pilot that contradicts movie lore is the presence of a dog; Arno, the boy chimp, has a dog that trees Farrow at the beginning, when Virdon, Burke and the dead Jones land in their spacecraft. Of course, we know from the films that a plague wiped out all dogs and cats, which caused humans to take in apes, first as pets and then as servants.
                          As far as the "New York - 2503" image goes, I had presumed that they went with a drawing because it was a quickly made prop only intended to be seen for a few seconds on screen. Plus I'm not certain how advanced graphics were back then as far as creating a fake photograph is concerned.

                          Back in the day in one of the Yahoo groups (Mike- help me out here), I think that someone made a post to the effect that nothing in science is ever 100% permanent and backed that up with reference to all sorts of supposedly "extinct" species being discovered (rediscovered?) by biological scientists in various different fields. Cornelius made a comment in ESCAPE to the effect of "millions more (dogs and cats) had to be destroyed", but if you think that through logically there's no possible way that every single dog (and cat) on the entire planet could be accounted for. Especially in outlying areas that were sparsely populated. In fact, Breck made a comment to Armando in CONQUEST about him traveling mainly in "the Provinces" (??) and- as such- he was largely unaware of the problems that the larger cities were having with their ape population. So it wasn't all large cities with constant surveillance where such things could be absolutely enforced.

                          All that being said, I'm in complete agreement with you that it's difficult trying to reconcile all the inconsistencies between the five films and two television series.

                          Comment

                          • apes3978
                            Permanent Member
                            • Nov 19, 2005
                            • 4901

                            #14
                            Originally posted by TheXFactor
                            Back in the day in one of the Yahoo groups (Mike- help me out here), I think that someone made a post to the effect that nothing in science is ever 100% permanent and backed that up with reference to all sorts of supposedly "extinct" species being discovered (rediscovered?) by biological scientists in various different fields.

                            I can't swear to it, but that sounds like something Patrick Michael Tilton may have said.

                            Comment

                            • MysteryWho
                              Persistent Member
                              • Dec 16, 2008
                              • 1046

                              #15
                              The problems of internal logic and consistency regarding the original film series are interesting. I am reasonably sure the writers were not thinking that deeply these issues (the pitch for the third film went something like "let's put some of them monkeys in the present to save money"), but I like the ideas you guys have about the new timeline and the plague brought by the apes. I am not sure the movie, television, and animated plots can be united but I am open to argument. My personal idea about the television show and its unique trajectory is that the intelligent apes civilization came about through tampering with apes but future scientists and a cataclysm of some sort. Zaius seems certain that men "did it to themselves", but doesn't the scientist in "The Legacy" refer merely to imminent destruction? I have often thought how great the show might have been as the astronauts unravel the secret origins of their new world.

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