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  • Confessional
    Maker & Whatnot
    • Aug 8, 2012
    • 3410

    #16
    Good read and forever to be considered in the glory of Apes mythos!

    If you really want to deep dive, I recommend another of Rich Handley Apes books, Timeline of the Planet of the Apes – The Definitive Unauthorized Chronology. As he explains, rather than take sides in the "circular vs. changing" debate, he gives you nearly all of the source material to look collectively, rather than just what nicely fits together.

    In a larger context, with each crossing of the Hasslein Curve, time shifts and the history can change.

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    • MegoMam
      Member
      • Dec 21, 2015
      • 58

      #17
      Cheetahs were on the verge of extinction, but artificial insemination and frozen embryos brought them back. There are currently plans to bring back Wholly Mammoths. Its not a stretch to imagination that scientists tried to bring back dogs and cats, with at least some limited success. Personally though I believe that the TV shows are in an alternate timeline from the movies.

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      • TheXFactor
        Museum Patron
        • Oct 31, 2013
        • 139

        #18
        Originally posted by apes3978
        I can't swear to it, but that sounds like something Patrick Michael Tilton may have said.
        That sound right. Of course, he **also** had this crazy theory about both Taylor and Brent's ships being launched from a larger "mothership" in outer space...

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        • TheXFactor
          Museum Patron
          • Oct 31, 2013
          • 139

          #19
          Originally posted by MysteryWho
          The problems of internal logic and consistency regarding the original film series are interesting. I am reasonably sure the writers were not thinking that deeply these issues (the pitch for the third film went something like "let's put some of them monkeys in the present to save money"), but I like the ideas you guys have about the new timeline and the plague brought by the apes. I am not sure the movie, television, and animated plots can be united but I am open to argument. My personal idea about the television show and its unique trajectory is that the intelligent apes civilization came about through tampering with apes but future scientists and a cataclysm of some sort. Zaius seems certain that men "did it to themselves", but doesn't the scientist in "The Legacy" refer merely to imminent destruction? I have often thought how great the show might have been as the astronauts unravel the secret origins of their new world.
          Once it was known a second sequel was required, it was actually Arthur P. Jacobs who made a comment to screenwriter Paul Dehn to the effect of "Presumably Cornelius and Zira are dead, however..." (I'd have to do a little digging to find the exact quote). They knew there was a smaller budget to work with, and that's where the reverse time travel idea eventually came from.

          What the scientist in "The Legacy" refers to as imminent destruction really doesn't contradict what Zaius said about mankind doing it to themselves. If anything, scientists would be well aware of the catastrophic level of destruction involved with a nuclear war, and- as such- would be motivated to preserve what knowledge they could in the time they had left.

          Comment

          • TheXFactor
            Museum Patron
            • Oct 31, 2013
            • 139

            #20
            Originally posted by Confessional
            Good read and forever to be considered in the glory of Apes mythos!

            If you really want to deep dive, I recommend another of Rich Handley Apes books, Timeline of the Planet of the Apes – The Definitive Unauthorized Chronology. As he explains, rather than take sides in the "circular vs. changing" debate, he gives you nearly all of the source material to look collectively, rather than just what nicely fits together.

            In a larger context, with each crossing of the Hasslein Curve, time shifts and the history can change.

            I'd have to disagree with that. A Hasslein Curve is no more a physical thing that gets "crossed" any more than a Bell Curve is. Brent says (to his Skipper) that they "passed through a Hasslein curve- a bend in time", and later to the Mutants that they "came through a defect; a slippage in time". There's overwhelming evidence that circular doesn't work because- by what is shown in the original five films- things don't happen the same exact way even when it's only the second time through. As I mentioned previously, the original downfall of mankind (virus to rebellion) as relayed by Cornelius and Zira in ESCAPE took place over the course of 500 years. After they traveled back in time, their presence ultimately brought it about much quicker. The 'In Memoriam' statue in CONQUEST says 1983 (IIRC) for the virus, and the movie itself takes place in 1991. So mankind's downfall happened sometime between then and when BATTLE took place in (roughly) 2019/2020.

            In other words, the world we first saw in both PLANET and BENEATH was the end result of the natural unfolding of events over (roughly) 2000 years time. When Cornelius and Zira (and Milo) went back to 1973, that did not erase the aforementioned 2000 years from happening. Everything that happened in PLANET and BENEATH is part of Cornelius and Zira's past, but now things will start to unfold differently because of their physical presence in 1973. Ergo, an alternate timeline makes complete sense. Where both the live action and animated TV fall on said timeline can be debated, although- as I mentioned previously- the animated series (set in 3979) could easily be seen as happening in a post-BATTLE world. Right on down to the fact that the vehicles left behind by the mutant army are likely what started the Apes on the path to the "modern" technology seen in RETURN (with some help with the human population of Ape City).

            BTW, I know that some of this sounds like the time travel explanation in Avengers: Endgame (“If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future, and your former present becomes the past, which can’t now be changed by your new future.”), but everything I wrote above is from a timeline I originally put together in 1991 (that's a saga unto itself and for another time). So- much like the writers of Engame- I've never been a fan of the whole "Back to the Future" explanations of time travel. I mean, the "You're Fired" message disappears (towards the end of Part III), but the piece of fax paper it was printed on still exists? Nope, don't think so.

            Burton's movie is it's own universe, as is the recent trilogy (ditto for any related books/comic books).
            Last edited by TheXFactor; Oct 1, '21, 3:46 AM.

            Comment

            • Confessional
              Maker & Whatnot
              • Aug 8, 2012
              • 3410

              #21
              Well, I think you completely missed the point (which is that of coexisting possibilities) instead arriving at the need to disagree. Fictional theory vs. Einstein/science withstanding, regardless if *time* is a human construct and/or physically experienced. Exactly why Rich presented the chronology in the way he did. In agreement, if the debate sucks the fun out of everything that is great about Apes, then… humans fail again.

              Comment

              • MysteryWho
                Persistent Member
                • Dec 16, 2008
                • 1046

                #22
                I agree, I was just suggesting that it was left vague enough, perhaps deliberately, so that other possibilities could be explored. The film series is pretty specific about the nuclear war, but the writers might have wanted more wiggle room on the TV show. The fact that they depict the earth as having advanced significantly before the apocalypse also opens up the door to fresh plots and stories. The film series is pretty open and shut in some respects.
                Meanwhile, the I always assumed the Hasslein stuff was just referring to Einstein and relativity. It explains how people could travel into the future, but not how they get to the past. That's where you gotta let go of the real science I guess. Brent's language while explaining the phenomenon doesn't jive with what Taylor speaks of at the beginning of the first film, which is part of relativity I think. Again, in the TV show they just call it a time warp, which may as well be the dance from the Rocky Horror Picture Show for all it has to do with science in this context.
                Originally posted by TheXFactor
                Once it was known a second sequel was required, it was actually Arthur P. Jacobs who made a comment to screenwriter Paul Dehn to the effect of "Presumably Cornelius and Zira are dead, however..." (I'd have to do a little digging to find the exact quote). They knew there was a smaller budget to work with, and that's where the reverse time travel idea eventually came from.

                What the scientist in "The Legacy" refers to as imminent destruction really doesn't contradict what Zaius said about mankind doing it to themselves. If anything, scientists would be well aware of the catastrophic level of destruction involved with a nuclear war, and- as such- would be motivated to preserve what knowledge they could in the time they had left.

                Comment

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