My thoughts on JOKER...and a likely unpopular opinion.

[Hedji]

No, it's not hypocritical of you at all. Wolverine is definitely a slippery slope. I'll be honest and admit I've never been a fan. Even in the 80s when he first gained momentum, I for whatever reason, decided he wasn't for me. I liked heroes, not anti-heroes. But yeah, a lot of Wolverine toys and costumes have been sold to kids. Logan is consistent with the tone of the character, but it is very much an adult movie.

[LonnieFisher]

I'm pretty sure Batman killed somebody in his first appearance. And his second, and third....

[LonnieFisher]

[palitoy]

You know, I think we should all be OK with Superhero movies going where ever they want but with some guidance.

I don't want to see a G-Rated version of an adult comic but on that same token, anything that goes on a kid's lunchbox should probably be for all ages or at least PG-13.

Captain America? All Ages
Superman? Come On, see above.
Vampirella? You must be this tall to see this.
Batman? You should able to bring your kid.
Watchmen? Well, that's gonna have boobies.
The Spirit? Did I ever mention I hate Frank Miller? Like with a passion.

I think that's the problem here that most of you are trying to piece together and I feel you. I know there is some adolescent middle ground here when you hit 80s comix but it can all be worked out...

[Werewolf]

Batman killing in the past was not even part of the discussion. Obviously comics have done a lot of questionable things over the years. No one has said they've ever been perfect. For example the racism and sexism of the 30s and 40s would thankfully not be acceptable today. But again that's not really the discussion.

Superheroes are heavily marketed to children. Children have always been and still are the primary market for superhero toys. Some of us think if you want R rated violent super heroes, fine, but don't market those same characters to children. My opinion is its in poor taste to sell Spiderman preschool toys to kids while having Zombie Spiderman murder and devour MJ. It was also in poor taste to have Killing Joke Joker in the Fisher Price line. I know it's an unpopular opinion and I'm not asking anyone to agree with me but that is how I feel.

[Werewolf]

Captain America? All Ages
Superman? Come On, see above.
Vampirella? You must be this tall to see this.
Batman? You should able to bring your kid.
Watchmen? Well, that's gonna have boobies.
The Spirit? Did I ever mention I hate Frank Miller? Like with a passion.

I agree with this.

[PNGwynne]

*ding-ding* No-Prize given for The Spirit comment.

[MRP]

Not that I necessarily disagree with the sentiment of keeping comic heroes family friendly in general, but do people feel the same way about other things that are usually associated with kid's fare or have kid-friendly versions of them made and merchandised? Say fairy tales as an example. I mean Disney and others like them have made fairy tales sanitized kid's fare, but Grimm's and the like were quite grim and gritty and graphically violent and most certainly not really kid's fare. But they became kid's fare once kid's versions were made and became the accepted standard for them. Does that mean more true to Grimm adult versions should now be off-limits? What about mythology? Disney made a kid's version of Hercules, but not all of his exploits are kid-friendly. Should thoseHercules tales (of rape, pillage, murder or what have you) be out of bounds because there is now a kid's version of it? Or Tarzan-does the Disney film (or the filmation cartoon) and making kid's merch for it mean the more violent true-to-Burroughs versions are now off-limits? Even something like Conan was made into a kid's cartoon, a Mego and other kid-friendly toys, but the originals are hardly family fare and the original stories would definitely be R-rated (or even NC-17) if faithfully adapted. Are those versions now invalid or unacceptable because the kids version was put out there?

How for does it extend? Does everything else become off limits if there is a kid's version of it out there and merch for kids? That would mean becoming a kid-friendly property invalidates all other versions. Or does it have to start as a kid-friendly property for it to apply? Well that would remove Batman and Superman from the discussion because those early Golden Age stories were't kid's fare per se (Batman shooting people, Superman dropping bombs on city blocks to achieve urban renewal and bullying people left and right.

I certainly get the sentiment to try to classify things and preserve them as one perceive's them, but sometimes that perception is only a snapshot of a much bigger tapestry that those characters/properties encompass and one person or groups experience of the property/character doesn't reflect the entirety of that character/property. The strongest properties can handle multiple interpretations (especially those that are mythic or iconic), and there is room for multiple interpretations for a lot of things in the marketplace without invalidating other interpretations, and most people can get the idea that there are different versions of things for different audiences without causing harm to the "brand."

I haven't seen Joker, not sure I will, as I just had no interest in doing so, but not because it was an adult version of the Joker-I mean he was a homicidal maniac in his first appearance in Batman #1 so murder and violence have been part of the character since it's inception whether or not he was on a lunch box or was an action figure at some point, but just because what I saw of the marketing didn't appeal to me or make me think it was a better options that I could do with those two hours it would take to see it.

There are certain things that were conceived for kids, been marketed for kids and I feel should remain kid-friendly-say the Disney characters for instance. There are other things that have been pigeon-holed as kid's fare even if they weren't always such and these things I am ok with kids versions and other versions existing side by side (things like fairy tales, mythology, some super-heroes, etc.) and things that were conceive dad intended as more adult fare that have been sanitized so they could be exploited for profit to kids (things like Conan and Burroughs) that really shouldn't be kids fare or marketed to kids. But I think it has to do with the nature of the material itself in all its various iterations and not whether it has been merchandised or marketed a certain way that should be the determining factor.

But as a whole I dislike pigeon-holing things and labeling them for one particular audience whether it actually should be or not. It's that kind of mentality that is wreaking havoc with Youtube content creators who talk about toys these days.

-M

[Werewolf]

Disney movies are their own thing. Apples and oranges. For example an R rated Snow White or Cinderella is not the same as having an R rated Disney Princess version. A character like Snow White is also public domain while Disney's Princess version is not. The Snow Queen is not the same as Frozen and kids know the difference. But to kids Spiderman is Spiderman and Superman is Superman. I get people want their cake and eat it too. But my opinion is you shouldn't have an R rated, for example, Superman or Spiderman while selling those characters to kids and preschoolers. Killing Joke Joker should NOT be in a pre-school line.

[MRP]

Well maybe the problem is not that there is an adult version of the Joker, but that someone took a characte rliek the Joker who is an amoral homicidal maniac and marketed him to kids by putting him on lunchboxes and toys and kid-oriented materials. A homicidal maniac should not be a part of any line of products for kids to begin with, and just because at some point someone decided to sanitize the character to sell to kids doesn't change the fact they are selling a homicidal maniac to kids.

-M

[Werewolf]

The 40s and 50s Joker was a far cry from the mass murdering sociopath he is today. The Joker in the 50s would have never cut off his own face and wore it as a mask. But again just because comics made mistakes in the past, like the racism, doesn't make it right. It was wrong then and wrong now. A mistake in the past isn't an excuse or a justification to keep doing it.

[Werewolf]

I remember reading an interview with Alan Moore and even he doesn't like Killing Joke. He thinks the story was too dark, nasty, violent and took characters to places they were never meant to go. I agree. I think the Joker character has been taken way too far. I'd like to see him dialed back to more of a clown prince of crime super villain and far less of the sadistic mass murdering sociopath the character is now.

He also didn't like how Watchmen has been absorbed into the mainstream and regrets comics have lost a lot of their innocence and fun because of it.

[LonnieFisher]

Maybe children shouldn't like characters whom fight all the time. They shouldn't have access to characters that are criminals, in general. Children should only have access to stories about children. Only good children should be depicted in children's entertainment. Children should not be exposed to fantasy stories. Fairy tales should be outlawed.

[Captain]

More unpopular opinions.

They should not make super hero movies children can't see. No R rated Marvel and DC movies.

Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns have done damage to the genre. DKR certainly damaged both Superman and Batman.

Don't make the villain the main character. Society is in a dark enough place right now were the cruelty is the point without glamourizing sociopaths.

I'd rather have the harmless camp of Batman 66 and the uplifting 78 Superman than all this soul crushing grimdark.

Completely agree!

[Earth 2 Chris]

The DCAU is about as dark and mature as I want things to get for the mainstream heroes. It wasn't far removed from the Bronze Age iterations, which honestly was about as far as the characters should have ever been taken in my opinion. Even the Timmverse pushed it at times, especially with Return of the Joker, but that's a "future" story, and those tend to get a little dark.

But for the most part, the run from BTAS to JLU was accessible on multiple levels for kids and adults, without ever going too far past what a kid should be watching.

In recent years, they pushed things TOO far, when they returned to it, and the results have been mixed at best. That original run is the gold standard, as far as I'm concerned.