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Stan Lee has apparently fallen on hard times?

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  • Earth 2 Chris
    Verbose Member
    • Mar 7, 2004
    • 32498

    #31
    ^I think Simon sued Marvel for Cap, and Kirby sided with them against his former partner, if I recall correctly.

    These are all great points, and I appreciate the peaceful discussion folks. My take is Stan is not a villain, he's a human. And so is Jack. They both did wrong by other people, and each other in some respects. The same could be said for all of us at one point or another.

    Stan never denied his artists credit. Maybe the extent of their credit was debated back and forth over the course of different interviews over the years, but he never tried to erase the contributions wholly as Bob Kane did. I think the Kane-bashing may be going too far nowadays too (Kane DID draw SOME of the early Batman work folks. It wasn't all ghosts), but I have a much easier time painting him as a "villain" than Stan. Kane weaved an intricate web of lies to cover his story of solely creating Batman. Lee at his worst marginalizes when the artist's contributions began, and what he considers "co-creation". He does acknowledge that they contributed SOMETHING in the mix of creating these characters.

    Marvel the publishing entity screwed Jack Kirby over, no question to me. Whether he asked for it or not, they should have compensated him besides a nice pay rate for the time. I'm glad to see the Kirby estate finally getting compensated for his co-creations. It's all Kirby ever really wanted. I just wish he'd seen it in his lifetime.
    sigpic

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    • Madcap70
      Guest
      • Dec 4, 2017
      • 55

      #32
      Well like the old saying says "It takes two"

      Funny thing why do people ALWAYS have to pick sides with EVERYTHING "I'm a Marvel Fan" "I'm a DC Fan" funny I'm both
      And If I remember right Steve Ditko was a recluse and didn't want any attention for Spider-Man but Stan did that for him..

      And on the Captain America lawsuit that was the Simon/Kirby family's that wanted some money from Marvel that's all...And they didn't start the lawsuit until the Cap movies were big hits and making alot of money...Greed Greed Greed I don't think they were doing that for Joe & Jack...

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      • LonnieFisher
        Eloquent Member
        • Jan 19, 2008
        • 10814

        #33
        And it just keeps getting worse...

        Stan Lee, the legendary comics figure who helped bring many of Marvel’s most iconic characters to life, has been in the news lately for reasons beyond his comics legacy. Over the last month, several reports about Lee’s personal life have uncovered bizarre attempts to capitalize on the 95-year-old’s fortunes... and a…

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        • Brazoo
          Permanent Member
          • Feb 14, 2009
          • 4767

          #34
          I'm reluctant to get involved in the old Lee vs. Kirby debate, but I do think a key point is being missed here.

          I think people get caught up in the creator debate, because that was the basis of the royalties, lawsuits (etc.) and forget the fact that Lee never credited Kirby (or Ditko) for writing. That's one of the simple things that took a toll on Kirby's (and Ditko's) relationship with him, and it actually affected Kirby's career.

          I don't think Lee is a villain. I don't think he wanted to hurt Kirby or his career. I think his self-worth was too vested in his idea of selling himself as an author. Everyone has a weakness.

          Lee is incredibly vocal about his early dreams of being an author - he fell into comics, fell into becoming an editor - what he really wanted was to become an author. When he dreamed of how the world saw him THAT is what he wanted, and he did everything to project that.

          Comic editors in other companies often did what Lee did. They collaborated on story, they often changed dialog - and usually did not credit themselves as a writer. Lee did. I'm not saying he was wrong to do that, but I do think it was wrong for him to keep that credit to himself and then invent and promote the "Marvel Method" for decades as a way of further selling the idea that he's THE (as in the REAL) writer.

          When Kirby and Ditko complained Lee didn't share a writing credit with them he didn't add their name next to "written by", he changed the way he wrote the credits. The impression that he was the writer was already sold to the public. "Stan Lee presents" and his personalized brand of editorial remained, so no matter what it always seemed like his brain was where all the ideas came from.

          I know it worked that way, because for a long time that's what I thought too. And I still talk to people who think that all the time.

          I think that gave Kirby a bit of a reputation of not being a writer and that seems like something he was self-conscious about and constantly fighting in his career. By all accounts he had an impressive self-taught interest in space, science, mythology and history - all the ingredients that helped form his stories, but he didn't have the same education as Lee, (as I recall, I think he left school at 15 or something) which I think also put him at odds with other comic editors. For example, it took a long time to negotiate a deal with DC before he left Marvel to work with them, I think mainly because he wanted writing and editorial freedom, and they never seemed to fully trust him or give him the creative room to do what he wanted - which is one of the reasons he probably left them. (Meanwhile, flash forward to now and they're basically banking half their billion dollar movie franchises on his concepts --- and he was only there about 3 years. Imagine the IPs they'd have to play with if they made him a bit happier and he stayed a little longer?)

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          • Brazoo
            Permanent Member
            • Feb 14, 2009
            • 4767

            #35
            Rechecking facts about Lee's education (it's been a long time since I looked at this stuff). According to Wiki, Lee graduated high-school early (this article says 16 1/2) and then worked in a federally subsidized work program called Federal Theatre Project, which he couldn't have been at long, because it says he stared his job as an assistant at early Marvel in 1939 - so I think he was only 17.

            Crazy times. Crazy life.

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            • palitoy
              live. laugh. lisa needs braces
              • Jun 16, 2001
              • 59204

              #36
              Stan's most recent appearance, this is kind of hard to look at:

              Places to find PlaidStallions online: https://linktr.ee/Plaidstallions

              Buy Toy-Ventures Magazine here:
              http://www.plaidstallions.com/reboot/shop

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              • johnnystorm
                Hot Child in the City
                • Jul 3, 2008
                • 4293

                #37
                Wow, it looks very much like he has had a stroke or something. He doesn't even look at the fans. And those photos...like he's not even aware of what's going on, not even an attempt at a smile.
                This reminds me so much of the ordeal that Ted William's son put him through in his final years. All he is now is a cash cow the handlers need to milk for as much as they can in the time left.
                Maybe in the long run, Jack Kirby won the game. He never had to live through this indignity.

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                • hedrap
                  Permanent Member
                  • Feb 10, 2009
                  • 4825

                  #38
                  I knew he would crash hard after his wife passed, but I didn't expect the vultures. How Arad or Fiege can live with themselves is beyond me. I hope they're covertly trying to help.

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                  • TRDouble
                    Permanent Member
                    • Jul 10, 2012
                    • 2525

                    #39
                    Originally posted by palitoy
                    Stan's most recent appearance, this is kind of hard to look at:

                    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/04...ley-comic-con/
                    Ah, reminds me of when I met Gordie Howe at a signing a few years (or so) ago. I was one of the early people in line and he was great. He couldn't talk much (a move of the hand and a whisper of what I think was, "thanks,") and it was get your item signed, say thanks (and what a fan you were), and move on. I heard they kept him out there too long and it didn't end well.

                    We all want to see & meet the greats, but sometimes the people "handling" them have to know when to say When. Even if these legends do want to still want to be out there among us fans (Gordie looked like he enjoyed seeing the turnout; Stan looks empty), do a small private signing, or luncheon. I would think it would make it easier on these guys, and if done right, the money grubbers will make a killing off of it too.

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                    • Brazoo
                      Permanent Member
                      • Feb 14, 2009
                      • 4767

                      #40
                      Originally posted by palitoy
                      Stan's most recent appearance, this is kind of hard to look at:

                      https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/04...ley-comic-con/
                      This is really painful to see.

                      Comment

                      • cockyhoskins
                        Career Member
                        • Jan 13, 2009
                        • 920

                        #41
                        Yeah, that was painful to watch. I don't know what ****es me off more... watching the vultures roll out a legend to be an autograph factory, or the dude who has post-it notes on his shields saying "sign here" so he can sell them, or the idiots who buy these because they're Stan Lee's last signatures (you know that's how he's going to market them).

                        Every autograph I have on my walls was personally received... never paid for (except one, I never got Michael Hutchence, so I bought his). The autograph experience is supposed to be about meeting a legend and getting proof, not jumping on eBay to buy it. I almost paid $700 for a Scott Weiland autograph right after he died (I already have one) because he signed it "F U (not abbreviated) if you sell this on ebay, Scott Weiland". It felt appropriate at the time!

                        I think the future of autographs will be selfies! I've been saying it for a couple years... take a selfie with the person! They can't sell it, and they have proof they met their legend.
                        Last edited by cockyhoskins; Apr 9, '18, 8:25 PM.

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                        • Earth 2 Chris
                          Verbose Member
                          • Mar 7, 2004
                          • 32498

                          #42
                          At this point, I think this may fall under senior abuse. When he dies, will they stuff him and roll him out at conventions?

                          Despicable.

                          Chris
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                          • Brazoo
                            Permanent Member
                            • Feb 14, 2009
                            • 4767

                            #43
                            Anyone else see the story circulating that Lee's personal manager and one of his ex-nurses allegedly stole his blood to fuse it with ink so they could stamp and certify collectibles with Lee's DNA?

                            It's basically a comic book horror story in itself.

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                            • LonnieFisher
                              Eloquent Member
                              • Jan 19, 2008
                              • 10814

                              #44
                              This situation makes me really sad. I wish somebody would help him get away from the vultures and vampires. I really wish there was something I could do for him.

                              Comment

                              • palitoy
                                live. laugh. lisa needs braces
                                • Jun 16, 2001
                                • 59204

                                #45
                                It just grosses me out that anybody would want anything from this version of Lee.

                                I was never really all that excited about meeting him at a con but if I was I'd want to interact with him, in some way, he's always been energetic and convivial.

                                If I saw this, I'd put a blanket on the man and refuse his signature.

                                It reminds me of a story a movie poster dealer told me once, he ran into Vincent Price somewhere and ran to his truck to get a "house on haunted hill" poster. Price agreed to sign it but this was the end and he was extremely feable.

                                The dealer told me that Price's signature was an unrecognizable squiggle and the whole situation just sort of depressed him.
                                Places to find PlaidStallions online: https://linktr.ee/Plaidstallions

                                Buy Toy-Ventures Magazine here:
                                http://www.plaidstallions.com/reboot/shop

                                Comment

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