Batman: The Killing Joke gets limited theatrical release

[PNGwynne]

Take a comic that is admittedly iconic, but problematic for its objectification of Batgirl. Then, instead of building her as a more three-dimensional character with her own female agency, add in a creepy relationship that reduces her to a sexual object to the male hero. It sounds almost like they were actively trying to make it worse...

This. And I do think their intention was to make it worse. I don't plan on going out of my way to see this "expansion"--I can reread the GN anytime.

[PNGwynne]

Unfortunately, unlike Batman and Robin, Batgirl really wasn't given a solid motivation in her debut story in 1967, and every iteration either in the comics or media has been scrambling to come up with a reason for her existence ever since.

Chris

I won't deny the possible sexual undertones in hero-worship, but to me Barbara's motivation was always a combination inspiration, admiration, and hero-worship.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I watched the movie. Imagine this, the internet is making a big deal out of little to nothing. Yes, Batman and Batgirl have rooftop sex. BUT, they build up to it in a manner that makes sense. They both regret it afterwards, as the movie progresses. Batgirl's motivation isn't just shacking up with Batman. You get the impression she grew attracted to him over their 3-year work relationship. It's basically an office romance that gets steamy, and then it leaves everyone a bit awkward.

Am I a huge fan of this? Not really. I didn't like it in follow-ups to BTAS like Batman: Beyond or Mystery of the Batwoman, but it did exist there, and those are holy canon to many. Obviously Bruce and Babs had a fling, and it had to involve sex. Nothing is shown on camera here. Batgirl takes of her cape mask and top to reveal her bra, and that's it.

Bruce Wayne shacked up with Talia in Dark Knight Rises after knowing her for like five minutes and no one blinked.

Now, did they need to put that in this movie? No. I'd argue they needed a Batgirl prologue to the graphic novel for folks to identify with the fact the Joker shot and paralyzed Batgirl. But they didn't need the sex angle, and it did seem to just be there to justify the "R" rating a bit.

But did it totally demean the character of Batgirl for all time. No.

Chris

[Earth 2 Chris]

Oh, and the rest of the movie was a very good adaptation of the original comic. Mark Hamill was fantastic, as was Conroy, as usual. There was a nice featurette at the end that showed Hamill doing the voice. Nice stuff.

Chris

[emeraldknight47]

Oh, and the rest of the movie was a very good adaptation of the original comic. Mark Hamill was fantastic, as was Conroy, as usual. There was a nice featurette at the end that showed Hamill doing the voice. Nice stuff.

Chris

Glad to hear the two of them back in the Batverse. Other people have voiced The Batman, but only Kevin Conroy IS The Batman. Same can easily be said of Mark Hamill's Joker. Aside from Cesar Romero, Hamill's voice is the one I hear when I read Joker dialogue.

[samurainoir]

Having watched this on the big screen tonight, I really enjoyed the part that was a straight up adaptation of the Killing Joke.

I was in a packed theatre, and as an indication of how tonally wrong the sex scene was, and the subsequent 2 scenes discussing the sex, the primarily young adult male crowd just howled in collective laughter at those three moments, which was obviously not the intent of the producers to illicit that kind of reaction from an audience.

I'm also firmly against a Bruce/Barbara romantic/sexual relationship of any kind because it diminishes both characters given their backstories and age differences. This is the iron willed Batman we're talking about after all, NOT Lolita or American Beauty (and even in American Beauty, Kevin Spacey's character clues in on how WRONG it would be before he went too far).

However, in the context of what they were trying to accomplish with this movie, it would have worked better if it was left in the PG realm of suggestion rather than made so explicit. They could have cut the scene at the rather shocking kiss, rather than continue to the point where Batgirl pulls off her top (which is where they lost the audience), and left it to the audiences imaginations about how far they took it, rather than again make it explicit in the follow up conversation with her co-worker (where again, they lost the audience).

and for the record, I'm not against #Batsex... in other live action or animated movies, or even comics/graphic novels aimed at a mature audience, I've been perfectly okay with times Batman has had sex with Talia or Catwoman. I'm also a big fan of Barbara/Batgirl's relationship with Dick as it developed in the comics, from a rather sweet crush on Dick's part when they were both age-appropriate teens, to them consummating their attraction many years later as adults. It developed quite naturally and organically within the set of story lines in the comics they were presented. It also showed a great deal of sensitivity around depicting a handicapped character like Babs/Oracle, in a sexual relationship, as a sexual being with adult needs, which I greatly applaud.

#Batsex aside, as much as I appreciate the fact that they were TRYING (unsuccessfully) to mitigate the "Women in Fridges" trope with the prologue section, my main complaint was how separate it was from the main driving spine of the film, which is the relationship between the Joker and Batman. They did their best to build some thematic and emotional bridges leading up to the Killing Joke adaptation, but it felt completely superfluous and tacked on once the Joker shows up.

Mark Hamill really knocked it out of the park as Joker, and showed how much it was worth his coming out of retirement to do this film. Hopefully folks stayed to watch the DVD extras scene after the credits showing Hamill in the recording studio. He created some wonderful contrast with the utterly tragic, pre-Joker, down on his luck, stand up comic. Which went a long way towards us sympathizing with the Joker at the end, desperately longing to prove to Batman that it wasn't just his weakness in escaping into madness from the reality he wasn't able to endure.

The Musical number was also handled amazingly well, staying well within captivating and creepy. Never devolving into campiness or losing the audience into laughing AT the film like they did in the earlier Batgirl segments. The entire funhouse sequence was visually incredible.

In regards to the additional scene tacked on at the end, I thought it worked well as a nice coda and acknowledgement without taking away from the wonderful Killing Joke ending that faded to black. Unfortunately the ugliness of internet discourse spilled over into real life when a male audience member shouted "Totally Unnecessary" as it ended, with a female voice from the audience retorting "It was Necessary". In my opinion, it worked as well as any end credits scene as a nice little bonus for a departing audience, no different than when Hope Van Dyne gets her Wasp costume, or Thor's Hammer shows up at the end of one of the Iron Man films.

[samurainoir]

Anyone else get the sense that the audience felt like they were in the wrong movie when it opened with the Behind the scenes featurette starting with Hamill as Luke Skywalker in Star Wars? Seemed to cause some confusion by crossing the streams like that. Hamill of course is seen in the live action footage with his Mickey Mouse T-shirt ('cause, y'know, Disney owns him now )

I was kind of amazed at how short it all was collectively, even when they included the padded out Batgirl prologue and 2 DVD extra behind the scenes featurettes. I kind of think I would have been perfectly satisfied with just an hour long straight up adaptation of the Killing Joke. I wonder if that will be a DVD option? to just watch the parts that adapt Killing Joke without the Batgirl lead up.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Well, my theater was packed, and everyone was confused at first because THE SOUND WENT OUT! So when pics of Hamill and Lucas popped up, we were REALLY befuddled. Luckily it came back in before Hamill was finished talking, but I myself felt a beat cheated.

I'm not a fan of the Bruce/Barbara relationship in any iteration either, BUT, they had more of a flirtation early on than Dick/Babs. Barbara was close to 10 years older than Robin when she debuted, after all. A little time, and oddly enough, the Animated Series were the factors that slowly brought their ages closer together. But that same series, voiced by these same actors (at least in later seasons where Tara Strong took over the Batgirl role) eventually told us that Bruce/Barbara had a relationship. If one wanted to, you could diverge the animated timeline in this film. The Batmobiles in this film are even very close to the BTAS/TNBA models.

I agree, the sex scene would have worked better had it been implied, and cut away from with the kiss, or Batman embracing her. There was more of a "whoa" out of my audience than laughter at these scenes.

If this were in anything but The Killing Joke, I could understand the outrage a bit more. I can understand a bit of controversy over it, but people losing their crap enough to yell at convention panelists is a bit much. The Killing Joke comic never sets up Barbara. She's in Gordon's apartment, opens a door, and is brutally shot and photographed to torture her father. She shows up later just to tell Batman how scary the Joker is. If you don't have a fundamental problem with that VERY adult and disturbing material, why should anyone have such a snit over sex between two consenting adults?

The producers are probably wishing they hadn't done the sex scene now, but it's still odd that few have a problem with the disturbing and horrific torture elements of the actual story it's based on.

I bought The Killing Joke comic when it came out. I hated to see what happened to Barbara, but I couldn't deny the quality of the storytelling, even at age 13. Over the years, I've grown a bit divided on how I feel about it. Now thanks to all the hoopla, I'm divided even more.

Chris

[MIB41]

I definitely get the impression Warner Bros made a conscious choice to brand their DC movies edgier and darker to run contrary to type in this genre. I don't see where that has garnered them added market share. If anything it's demonstrated, once again, how little they understand the license and it's audience. They've taken a property and (in this instance) a time established story that artistically should have been a no-brainer to develop and created divisive elements where none were needed. The sad part is they cater to stereotypes that demean and demoralize these characters. It's as if they are ashamed of the license and feel some need to amp up it's perceived 'relevance' with adult themes that quite honestly amplify it's more juvenile undertones. If the costume now has to become a focal point to contribute and/or elicit sexual tension for purposes of character building, it really muddies the water in terms of finding their moral compass and reason for existing on principle.

It's not difficult nor uncharacteristic to explore social themes in these stories. I just think the meter of common sense is every bit as applicable here. Know your audience and understand the difference between shock value for story purposes versus brand messaging that carries it's own importance and consequences. People love their heroes. But having Batgirl straddle Batman while he grabs her rear in a cartoon does nothing, in my book, to elicit maturity. It caters to all the misguided notions that sexual situations somehow equate to a more diverse and expansive audience. In truth, I believe it tarnishes the brand and divides the audience. And when you're talking about characters like Batman that have broad appeal to all age groups, especially in a format like a animated feature, I think Warner Bros really does themselves a disservice by skewing the consumer in an attempt to play with the tonality of script.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^I see your point Tom, but there's really no way to adapt The Killing Joke and make it suitable to all audiences. You can argue they should have just left it alone, and you can make the argument, and one I've started to agree with more and more over the years, that these characters shouldn't even be put in situations that aren't all ages appropriate.

Chris

[MIB41]

^^^ I think your reserves really sum up how I feel. I think graphic novels are suitable for that target audience. But when the studios make them into animated features, I don't think retailers are really informed as to the nature of their content and so they too often get placed next to G-rated features in the kiddy isle. A prime example is Flashpoint. So it really leaves you wondering if retailers would elect to carry the title at all if they understood it's content, which in turn leads consumers to make ill informed decisions in buying the product based on it's location with kid friendly merchandise. Plus one does not typically look for a rating on an animated title featuring a predominantly G-rated hero. Another reason why I say the studio needs to be careful messing with the branding.

[LonnieFisher]

I thought The Killing Joke sucked. I pretty much hated everything about it. Batman seems more like a villain than a hero. Babs seems like a bully. Not heroic at all for either of them.

[samurainoir]

appears that the producers anticipated the uncomfortable ICK factor of Batman as a parental figure having sex with Batgirl, and just went full steam with it.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/bruce-timm-on-the-risky-batman-batgirl-sex-scene-in-the-killing-joke

Bruce Timm

Timm noted in the interview that he wasn't shocked at the reaction to the scene. "We were aware that it's a little risky. There's definitely some stuff in that first part of the movie that's going to be controversial. Here's where we came down on that specific issue: It was really important to us to show that both of the characters make some pretty big mistakes. I mean, his 'parental skills' aren't that great. Maybe never having had any kids of his own, he doesn't realize that if you tell a kid to not do something, they’re going to want to do it even more. And then she makes some mistakes and then he kind of overreacts to her mistakes and then she overreacts to his overreaction. So it's very human; it's a very understandable story. It's tricky because it's messy, because relationships are sometimes messy.

[MIB41]

Timm noted in the interview that he wasn't shocked at the reaction to the scene. "We were aware that it's a little risky. There's definitely some stuff in that first part of the movie that's going to be controversial. Here's where we came down on that specific issue: It was really important to us to show that both of the characters make some pretty big mistakes. I mean, his 'parental skills' aren't that great. Maybe never having had any kids of his own, he doesn't realize that if you tell a kid to not do something, they’re going to want to do it even more. And then she makes some mistakes and then he kind of overreacts to her mistakes and then she overreacts to his overreaction. So it's very human; it's a very understandable story. It's tricky because it's messy, because relationships are sometimes messy.

You know I really don't want any pop-psychology lessons from Timm because it sounds like his interpretations of "real" are pretty flighty. First Bruce Wayne raised Dick Grayson from a relatively early age and was his mentor. Whether he had "good parenting" skills is a pretty soft issue here since we're not talking real life circumstances. But to wrap it in this vein of "misunderstanding" because Dick is not his true blood son is the dumbest reasoning I have ever heard. It's also a cheap shot at every step parent in the world. Idiot. And his casual description of Wayne's role to Barbara is just off the wall. He essentially excuses Wayne because Barbara is making mistakes in her judgement so he's reacting to them in a similar vein which, according to Timm, gives him a "pass" because relationships are "messy"? WHAT?! So his accountability is null and void because he's a lousy parent thereby making it "understandable" for him to get aroused at the most inappropriate of moments? What a moron. Timm sounds like a person who needs to have his own head assessed. And this disturbed individual is scripting for these superheroes? Dear Lord...

[Earth 2 Chris]

I love Timm's work, but he really needs to stop throwing the word "parent" around in regards to this. That takes the ick factor to the point of no return. I never thought of Batman as a parental figure to Barbara. She has a father in Jim Gordon, obviously. He's her boss...and she's usually freelance. That makes this less deplorable. Timm isn't the type who worries about how his words are interpreted, but he should have phrased that differently, for sure.

Maybe this proves, you can't go home again. The creators are obviously more interested in more adult material, and the fans just want more BTAS. Why anyone thought you'd get that with the very adult and disturbing Killing Joke story, I'm not sure, but their new material has compounded the issues with that story, rather than solve them, for many at least.

Chris