CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR at 100% on RT...

[PNGwynne]

Thanks for the clarification--I thought he was spinning BvsS and being a bit full of himself.

[enyawd72]

Great reflection Chris. It's an odd devotion to a cause when diehards of a film go back repeatedly to lend what they believe is financial aid to a film not accepted by the masses.

It is rather odd, and on that point, I think Marvel fans are a little different from DC fans. Much like BvS, everyone knew beforehand that Fantastic 4 was NOT going to be a great film, or even a good one...and they stayed away. I never saw it in the theatre. I simply refused to support it just because it was Marvel. It's not even rental worthy to me. I'll eventually watch it when it ends up on television for free.

[sprytel]

I dunno. We also knew Fantastic 4 was not part of the "Marvel cinematic universe." A movie like Ant-Man... it looked fun and interesting, but I could have easily skipped it if it wasn't tied into a bunch of other movies I cared more about. Sure, Ant-Man turned out to be a good movie. But could it get folks to watch a trainwreck like BvS or F4? Iron Man 3 did really well in the box office...

[hedrap]

Cap has been written to character where Supes has not. It's an admitted big difference as it changes the underlying structure of the movie when you subvert a character like Snyder did, but as for execution, Winter Soldier has just as many inane setups and foul balls as BvS, convoluted villain schemes and outside Evans/Mackey, worse performances. "Save Martha" and "Save Bucky" are actually the same ideas with the same purpose.

[MIB41]

Thanks for the clarification--I thought he was spinning BvsS and being a bit full of himself.

Plenty of innuendo in that. We'll see what he tweets after opening weekend.

It is rather odd, and on that point, I think Marvel fans are a little different from DC fans. Much like BvS, everyone knew beforehand that Fantastic 4 was NOT going to be a great film, or even a good one...and they stayed away. I never saw it in the theatre. I simply refused to support it just because it was Marvel. It's not even rental worthy to me. I'll eventually watch it when it ends up on television for free.

I think familiarity is where the line is drawn. I have plenty of friends who are casual fans of this genre who don't know Batman and Spiderman are from two different companies. Green Lantern and Fantastic Four are not iconic heroes to the general populace like Batman and Spiderman are. So if those projects take a critical drubbing, they're not critic proof. People will use critics as guidance for characters less familiar. The general public were going to line up to see a movie called Batman vs Superman no matter what. The title plays like an episode of the Superfriends. That title has mass appeal, which is why no one listened to the critics opening weekend (they stayed away after WOM became toxic). But if you take something like Deadpool which is lesser known, it had a great opening weekend thanks in large part to tremendous critical reception while the bulk of it's gross after that weekend came from WOM...and repeat viewings.

At the end of the day I think it really comes down to story like anything. The Marvel heroes have not run a perfect race by any stretch. Sony stumbled, critically with Spiderman 3 (which at the time was the darling franchise in the genre). Ironman 3 was not received well either after the success of Avengers, but both of those films made over a billion dollars worldwide so the mass appeal carried those films regardless. And DC had the Dark Knight series with Nolan that was incredibly lucrative. I think what keeps Marvel properties distinctive is they stay on task and continue to mine the Marvel universe with new and different approaches to the storytelling. That keeps the brand fresh and makes people forget any ill after effects from the misses. For every surprise bomb like the FF, you get a surprise runaway like Deadpool. For a poor treatment in Ironman 3, you get a fresh approach to Guardians of the Galaxy.

WB is too busy saying, "TA DA! We're here!" while Marvel is saying, "Next!" That makes an impression. BVS is taking allot of flack because WB trumped it's horn too loud and spent a mind boggling amount of money while showcasing these opinions that suggested this would be a juggernaut at the theaters. Marvel spends far more conservatively and let's the movies do the talking. To me, if there is anything the DC brand needs to learn from the Marvel films, it's to just shut up and do them. Marvel properties have been growing their universe for 18 years while DC has sat on their hands with too many false startups for Superman while staying mostly invested in just Batman as their only show pony. THAT is the problem. They just don't know their product and think there has to be a Roman-style entrance to the throng of fans for each new film. Honestly WB looks utterly lost.

I LOVE the DC characters. I also LOVE the Marvel universe. I just don't think WB trusts the source material to let it drive the bus. The public is not stupid. They know when you're putting one over on them. WB still doesn't get it (Marvel does). And with each lukewarm attempt by WB, Marvel injects a new character while broadening their vast universe of characters.

[enyawd72]

I think Doctor Strange is going to be another smash hit for Marvel, and I really can't wait to explore that corner of the MCU.

I suspect there will be at least three of them and we'll see Dormammu, Mephisto, Nightmare...plus it opens up possibilities for more supernatural characters like Man-Thing, Werewolf By Night, etc.

[MIB41]

I think Doctor Strange is going to be another smash hit for Marvel, and I really can't wait to explore that corner of the MCU.

I suspect there will be at least three of them and we'll see Dormammu, Mephisto, Nightmare...plus it opens up possibilities for more supernatural characters like Man-Thing, Werewolf By Night, etc.

Oh I know!!! Looks really amazing. And it also looks like another new approach to the story telling experience in this universe. That's what I love about the Marvel movies. Very few of them register on the same style scale. But one thing they all do well is embrace the fun and fantasy of each concept. They're fully invested in the source material. Strange looks great!

[hedrap]

At the end of the day I think it really comes down to story like anything. The Marvel heroes have not run a perfect race by any stretch. Sony stumbled, critically with Spiderman 3 (which at the time was the darling franchise in the genre). Ironman 3 was not received well either after the success of Avengers, but both of those films made over a billion dollars worldwide so the mass appeal carried those films regardless. And DC had the Dark Knight series with Nolan that was incredibly lucrative. I think what keeps Marvel properties distinctive is they stay on task and continue to mine the Marvel universe with new and different approaches to the storytelling. That keeps the brand fresh and makes people forget any ill after effects from the misses. For every surprise bomb like the FF, you get a surprise runaway like Deadpool. For a poor treatment in Ironman 3, you get a fresh approach to Guardians of the Galaxy.

True, but every pre-Ultron excuse was "It's all connected" or "Wait til it plays out", and when it played out to a crappy conclusion, it made the excuses moot. IM3 is much worse than BvS and it did not get critically or fan smashed during its release. The vibe was more disappointment. That's the inherent bias towards Marvel right now. They hype and when they whiff, the fan response is always to look pass it, get something better, than acknowledge the previous movie wasn't really that good. Exactly what I'm expecting with Winter Soldier post-Civil War.

I have not seen one "Wait til Suicide Squad" excuse on behalf of DCCU. If anything, Squad is being treated as a prove-me-wrong. That never happens with Marvel.

WB is too busy saying, "TA DA! We're here!" while Marvel is saying, "Next!" That makes an impression. BVS is taking allot of flack because WB trumped it's horn too loud and spent a mind boggling amount of money while showcasing these opinions that suggested this would be a juggernaut at the theaters. Marvel spends far more conservatively and let's the movies do the talking.

That's perception, not reality. Civil War's costs escalated dramatically during production. They also blew past the budget on Ultron and IM3. Winter Soldier and GoTG are the only movies that were in-line with it's original costs and that goes back to the first Iron Man. I should add I don't know what acounting went towards Ant-Man as that was in development for a decade. Marvel doesn't get the scrutiny because the returns exceed.

To me, if there is anything the DC brand needs to learn from the Marvel films, it's to just shut up and do them. Marvel properties have been growing their universe for 18 years while DC has sat on their hands with too many false startups for Superman while staying mostly invested in just Batman as their only show pony. THAT is the problem. They just don't know their product and think there has to be a Roman-style entrance to the throng of fans for each new film. Honestly WB looks utterly lost.

That's very true and that's WB reacting out of fear of investors. The current word is if Squad does not perform at a nearly Deadpool level, everyone is getting fired from the WB pres to Johns. Snyder will survive since he's in production and he already has new overseers. I think that's why Affleck's solo Bat film is so intangible. He doesn't want to be locked in past JL if no one is going to survive come October.

I LOVE the DC characters. I also LOVE the Marvel universe. I just don't think WB trusts the source material to let it drive the bus. The public is not stupid. They know when you're putting one over on them. WB still doesn't get it (Marvel does). And with each lukewarm attempt by WB, Marvel injects a new character while broadening their vast universe of characters.

WB goes by their biggest DC market and it's the video game division, not comics. Synder really screwed up by being selfish and wanting to shoot every iconic DC moment. I'm surprised the got him to let go of Joker and whatever he originally planned.

WB can salvage all of this by making CW Earth-1, the movies Earth-2 and do a TV/movie Crisis event with JL pt 2. Then they keep what is wanted, such as Gustin as Flash and put Dini as creative chief.

[MIB41]

True, but every pre-Ultron excuse was "It's all connected" or "Wait til it plays out", and when it played out to a crappy conclusion, it made the excuses moot. IM3 is much worse than BvS and it did not get critically or fan smashed during its release. The vibe was more disappointment. That's the inherent bias towards Marvel right now. They hype and when they whiff, the fan response is always to look pass it, get something better, than acknowledge the previous movie wasn't really that good. Exactly what I'm expecting with Winter Soldier post-Civil War.

I have not seen one "Wait til Suicide Squad" excuse on behalf of DCCU. If anything, Squad is being treated as a prove-me-wrong. That never happens with Marvel..

As far as what is worse (IM3 or BVS) that will always be subjective, but in terms of the most current audience score, IM3 is still holding up much better than BVS even with retrospect of it's shortcomings now in full view. Will opinion of BVS benefit or grow worse with age? That question still remains and will mostly likely vary with each new generation. In terms of there being an unspoken bias from the general public to Marvel, I can't say that consideration has not come without allot of demonstrated ability along the way. I don't think people just woke up one day and said, "Make Marvel mine."

The Marvel properties have built a well deserved following because they took the time to grow many of their iconic heroes from their own origin films when there was NO real marketplace for them yet. While opinions will vary in these circles as to each film's worth in that collective, without question the companies in charge of those films got the general audience familiar and somewhat educated on their comic roots and were successful in advancing those narratives. The fact that all involved have tried to weave a sense of cohesion, no matter how loosely, has given a sense of investment to audiences. A gimmick? Perhaps, but a very smart one as well. If audiences feel inclined to follow a perceived storyline, why not try and build on that? George Lucas certainly built an empire on his fake "chapter" references for Star Wars II, III, IV , V, and VI.

So the Marvel properties have built much of what exists in the movie industry of superheroes today and the DC properties, outside of Batman, look slow to the process of jumping in. WB owns that distinction, not the companies that took the chance and invested in these Marvel characters when there was little to know if they would work.

That's perception, not reality. Civil War's costs escalated dramatically during production. They also blew past the budget on Ultron and IM3. Winter Soldier and GoTG are the only movies that were in-line with it's original costs and that goes back to the first Iron Man. I should add I don't know what acounting went towards Ant-Man as that was in development for a decade. Marvel doesn't get the scrutiny because the returns exceed.

That makes allot of sense and I appreciate that insight. I was not aware they had spilled over on their budgets as much as they have. Given their box office history, I would say some of that has proven to be fruitful. But what makes WB stand out is they,as a studio, seem to make bold statements as to what they are expecting. I don't hear that as loudly from the Marvel properties. Sure there will be discussion with the analysts and those within the industry that study every film that comes out in this genre (and each film carries expectations as they should). But let's be completely fair on this latest film. WB chose to skip allot of steps in trying to do I guess what is best called "universe building" of their characters to play catch up with what Marvel has been doing for the past 18 years...and no one bought it. People want a story and characters they can relate with, not a costume film. Even Deadpool, for as outrageous as it was, had a redeeming message in it. Here we have a big budgeted film that has a countless list of miscues that was supposed to be managed by the suits in the beginning. How does the public gain confidence by WB saying they'll do a better job with Justice League when they're not even removing the director that many felt was the problem in delivering this latest film? I don't think there's a perception problem there. The suits gambled big with a director that has a solid track record for making divisive films and now they seem stuck with him. That doesn't sound like the kind of guy you put in charge of world building for a wide array of properties. And I can't blame the public for a product the studio supervised and financed to the displeasure of many. WB owns this problem.

That's very true and that's WB reacting out of fear of investors. The current word is if Squad does not perform at a nearly Deadpool level, everyone is getting fired from the WB pres to Johns. Snyder will survive since he's in production and he already has new overseers. I think that's why Affleck's solo Bat film is so intangible. He doesn't want to be locked in past JL if no one is going to survive come October.

While I hate to hear the prospect of anyone losing their job, it certainly underscores the importance of making a product the consumer wants, especially when so much money is gambled as it is in this business. As I have stated in another thread, I don't see how Suicide Squad does anything memorable at the box office. The timing is bad with it's release at the end of the summer and it's most notable character, the Joker, looking mostly unrecognizable in his new gangsta-paint. Plus I doubt you can find ten people in the general public who even know one thing about the Suicide Squad. It's an odd concept to bring to the big screen. And for the budget to be rumored AS BIG as BVS, I'm left scratching my head. To me, it plays into the same fate as Green Lantern. I believe the public will lean on critical review for something they're not familiar with and proceed accordingly. If this was a small budgeted experiment like Deadpool, I could see the merit. But a budget as big as BVS? That's insane. By the time this film hits, summer will be ending, kids getting ready to go back to school, and audiences will have several comic related movies under their belts. I don't see any residual interest for a movie involving a bunch of (mostly) b-listing villains. And I would not want the fate of this film resting on the waning interests of critics who might be making comparisons to BVS as soon as they see Affleck's cameo. It just sounds like the perfect storm for a big miss.

What remains sad to me is why they couldn't adopt the same flavor and attitude of their television productions like the Flash or Gotham. Personally I think crowds would flock to films like that because they have so much charisma. So maybe, at the end of the day, that is the one ingredient really missing here. These DC heroes (in theaters) are just not all that likable.

[huedell]

True, but every pre-Ultron excuse was "It's all connected" or "Wait til it plays out", and when it played out to a crappy conclusion, it made the excuses moot. IM3 is much worse than BvS and it did not get critically or fan smashed during its release. The vibe was more disappointment. That's the inherent bias towards Marvel right now.

I think that's pretty justified. Marvel & Marvel's fans have earned that right during the building of the MCU. I may be more of a "DC" guy... but I gotta give Marvel et all their propahs!

I mean, I'm predicting Suicide Squad will be great, the best of the three DCCU films up to this point... but, even if I'm right, well, that doesn't mean much when all ya have to build on is MoS and BvS.

They hype and when they whiff, the fan response is always to look pass it, get something better, than acknowledge the previous movie wasn't really that good. Exactly what I'm expecting with Winter Soldier post-Civil War.

Interesting take, as I think Winter Soldier is the most overrated superhero movie released in a long, long time. Ah well--- just a drop in the MCU bucket!

WB can salvage all of this by making CW Earth-1, the movies Earth-2 and do a TV/movie Crisis event with JL pt 2. Then they keep what is wanted, such as Gustin as Flash and put Dini as creative chief.

Someone DO THIS!!!! ^^^^



Save us DC fans!

[libby 1957dog]

https://youtu.be/8QhwY2VLmQM

ill just leave this here lol
i know some of you guys will get a laugh out of it

[emeraldknight47]

CA: CW back up to 97%. This thing is getting some really decent reviews. I'm wondering if the DC/WB suits are reading any of this and shaking their heads wondering where they went awry with what should have been a comic-movie blockbuster...

[Spyweb007]

I want all the comic book movies to be good, I am a fan of both companies. I think what Marvel gets that DC has missed in their movies is the portrayal of the main hero in each movie. Marvel made me like Tony Stark before he built the Iron Man suit, he was an interesting character and well cast actor without the Super-Hero aspect. Same with Chris Evans as Steve Rogers, and even Ed Nortons Bruce Banner was interesting and had an awesome chase scene before the first "Hulk Out". Everyone seems to like Ben Affleck as Batman, and in the movie's opening scene his Bruce Wayne was great, heroic as he raced towards the destruction and showing his courage, compassion and anger in those scenes so well that I wasn't waiting for him to hurry up and be Batman. With Clark Kent in these movies, he's alright, but makes me want to see Superman show up, then when Superman does show up he is kind off lacking in characterization and personality, losing any charm or warmth that Clark had in the process.

[Earth 2 Chris]

CA: CW back up to 97%. This thing is getting some really decent reviews. I'm wondering if the DC/WB suits are reading any of this and shaking their heads wondering where they went awry with what should have been a comic-movie blockbuster...

I'm reading positive spin reports like "Batman v Superman has now surpassed Iron Man 2 at the domestic Box Office". BvS SHOULD have broken every record in sight. We're talking Avengers level money here. Bad will and bad word of mouth dulled its potential impact, no doubt. And repeat business is down due to the dark, depressing tone of the whole affair.

Chris

[emeraldknight47]

CA:CW now back up to 98%. BvS, on the other hand, is down to 27%. I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry...