Question From The Doctor Who Ignorant

[YANOULI]

well said Dana.

[drwhofan74]

I have to agree with dana... I think the new series actually meshes very well with the old. The major difference is that the technology of the FX has finally caught up with the wonderful writing.

The only other difference I can see is the faster pace. I was a bit weary of them cramming entire storylines into one episode, but the pace adds to the excitement. The older episodes developed slower, so they had a chance to develop the plot into a more complex one. (maybe this is where the "dumbing down" comment comes from?) But, I think the new series has done well in developing complex long term stories over an entire season.

Getting back to the original poster...
I personally have gotten to the point in my Doctor Who obsession where I have no favorites. I too grew up with Tom Baker and have always considered him "the best." I have since come to love each of the Doctors for their own quirks. So, yes, do not avoid any of the shows. They are all worth watching. Paul McGann (8th Doctor) does a great job in the series of Big Finish audio adventures as well. Don't limit yourself to the television shows...

[Mikey]

I never got the whole New Series is "dumbing down" thing at all.

To anyone who thinks the New Series is "dumbed down", try watching some Classics over again ....... None of them is exactly Shakespeare either.

I resent the dumbed down statement because I like the New Series.
Calling it dumbed down is a blatant insult to anyone who likes it.

It's like calling THEM dumb for liking it.

[drwhofan74]

I never got the whole New Series is "dumbing down" thing at all.

To anyone who thinks the New Series is "dumbed down", try watching some Classics over again ....... None of them is exactly Shakespeare either.

I resent the dumbed down statement because I like the New Series.
Calling it dumbed down is a blatant insult to anyone who likes it.

It's like calling THEM dumb for liking it.

Amen, Brutha!

[palitoy]

To anyone who thinks the New Series is "dumbed down", try watching some Classics over again ....... None of them is exactly Shakespeare either.

Heh, what's that expression, "The Memory Cheats"?

[Surfsup]

Just out of interest Rob, what would you have done differently if you had the opportunity to continue the series?

Would you have reverted back to the good old days of JNT, recalling his eye for serious sci-fi stories and non panto production style?

[danadoll]

At last the message board is semi-functional again. You must all be aware of the panto style of the remake and of the tendancy to cheap toilet humour, attitudes of don't worry about the rabid monster chasing us, let's dance, and patently absurd plots-a giant fan that blocks it's own off switch. An alien that can't cool down in a space station-with freezing temperatures as the norm without a heating system?

Writing and plot problems, silly panto moments? Oh yeah...Because the classic series didn't have any of that, did it? The Daleks couldn't climb stairs and the Cyberman had a weakness for gold, for cripes' sake!

Onto Dalek history. If you can find a major inconsistency please state one. At the end of Genesis the Thals and Mutos depart leaving the Daleks in their bunker. When they return 200 years later in The Daleks the Thals have abbreviated the name to Dals. The Daleks have built a huge city which they cannot move from. This loss of technology is not a surprise as the last thing they did in Genesis was exterminate their Kaled research scientists, taking untold technology with them.

You're wrong about the Daleks being referred to as Dals (that came much later)...Alydon refers to them as the Dalek people when he first appears (and meets Susan) in "The Daleks". They are referred to as the Dalek people by the Thals later in "The Daleks"...And were said to be teachers and very learned...You're not seeing a problem, with this piece of history?

Davros is also a retcon, since he wasn't mentioned in the original Dalek story.

Check out these links...

http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=8382

http://www.kaldorcity.com/features/a...urrection.html

I also have to ask you this Rob...Do you consider the novels to be canon or not?

In the remake the Earth is long since abandoned at destruction, in Dr Who The Ark leaves just in time to see it. Also we see humans, not quasi-human hybrids as mentioned in the remake.

Sigh...Both stories ("The Ark" and "The End of The World") could still have happened, Rob...You're being very small-minded.

The TARDIS is always described as a device, the Doctor sometimes called it 'old girl' as he might Bessie. "My machine can't think" as the Doctor explained in the Edge of Destruction.

You really need glasses or something.

Dr Who qualifies as Science fiction as there are no impossible magic creatures such as Dragons and werewolves. The Mind Robber is sometimes confused as fantasy, but it actually deals with the bizarre physics of other dimensions. Battlefield would let the side down if it had not been for The Daemons explaining that old world superstition was based on observations of aliens and their customs and technology. The Destroyer is a type of Daemon.

The Devil-like being in "The Satan Pit" could be one the Daemons too (as could the creature from Torchwood's season finale)...The werewolf in the new series was shown to be an alien and I don't recall seeing any dragons in the new series...What's your point again?

One thing I cannot understand is why you want to link the two programmes when you are so insulting to the original? Leave it be. The cheap shot about Shakespeare can easily be answered by referring to The Keeper of Traken episode 2 where Nyssa confronts Kassia. Now there is drama worthy of the bard.

Finally by ignoring my points you by implication accept them. A bald, unqualified insult establishes that you cannot rebutt the point, so as in normal debate it is left to stand. Please respond with qualified arguments, anybody can shout a nay from the hustings, pointlessly. So far Dana is the only one to attempt a reply.

You've ignored all of my points too, Rob (and the links I placed about the TARDIS being alive in the classic series)...So what's the difference? You're wrong and I'm done trying to get you to listen to reason (you're apparently beyond it)...You have been painfully blind, equally deaf and extraordinarilly dumb. You really need to stop this, you're starting to sound like a nut.

Dana

[ctc]

>and of the tendancy to cheap toilet humour,

Well, the only example of that I can think of was the Slitheen, which I didn't mind. (Not every alien is gonna be macho and scary.) Were there others I'm missing?

>attitudes of don't worry about the rabid monster chasing us, let's dance,

There were a lot of times in the old show where the Doc gave a really, REALLY long speech during the chase or fight. (Sorta how Marvel characters can give speeches between punches...)

>and patently absurd plots-

Here's where you really start to lose me. Dude travels time and space in a phonebooth that's bigger on the inside than outside. At that point "absurd" becomes REALLY relative.

>The TARDIS is always described as a device, the Doctor sometimes called it 'old girl' as he might Bessie. "My machine can't think" as the Doctor explained in the Edge of Destruction.

My computer can't think either; but it alwys seems to know what program to use, when I've added something, and the best time to crash and totally ruin my day. I suspect the Tardis doesn't "think" but anticipates based on the situation and it's owner. They've shown in the old series that each Tardis is linked to the Eye of Harmony, and posesses a certain measure of psychic connection to it's owner. So it's not alive; but it can react in a way that's beneficial to it's owner. At least that's how it seems to work to me.

>Dr Who qualifies as Science fiction as there are no impossible magic creatures such as Dragons and werewolves.

Okay; the fact that you feel the need to differentiate so bad still bugs me. But, okay; I'll play.

>The Mind Robber is sometimes confused as fantasy, but it actually deals with the bizarre physics of other dimensions. Battlefield would let the side down if it had not been for The Daemons explaining that old world superstition was based on observations of aliens and their customs and technology. The Destroyer is a type of Daemon.

Once you accept stuff like that, ANYTHING is sci-fi. You'd mentioned that 40K was fantasy 'cos the Thousand Sons had magic from their inception, but in 40K what IS magic? Rules wise psionics and magic (from Warhammer Fantasy) work EXACTLY the same, and story-wise there's no reason what was "magic" in the olden days wasn't actually psionics with a lot of window dressing. It's all in the presentation. (Presumably the Warp existed before anyone knew it was there.)

Ultimately I haven't seen anything in the new series that can't be explained science-fictionally. (If you accept the Daemons, and the Guardians; why not that devil guy in the planet?)

>One thing I cannot understand is why you want to link the two programmes when you are so insulting to the original?

Since the point is gonna be pressed regardless; howzabout YOU play along? Why do you think we like the show and don't consider it an icky-poo remake? Just for sake of argument. Put yourself in our shoes and see if you can think through our position.

Don C.

[Wee67]

HOLY HANNAH!!!! I hadn't come back after I received the answer to most of my questions. I appreciate those of you who took the time to answer them specifically. There'a bit much to take in, even with the actual answers.

Thanks again to Mike for turning me on to the new Doctor, though I must admit, I'm not the biggest fan of the most recent incarnation.

Brain's comment about memory seems quite fitting for this post and, honestly, much of my 70's recall. Still, I enjoy my fuzzed memory with its warmly filled-in facts

[danadoll]

This looks like my last post- the server is either sabotaged or overworked or something.

Surf Dr Who's time has come and gone. A story that has been told. JNTs last seasons were merely entertaining, after years of classics. If the 1996 film contradicted it's predecessor then I would happily disregard it as more OK material and separate. But I cannot.

Believe what you will, Rob...Some of us prefer to enjoy the ongoing adventures of Doctor Who, instead of sulking/whining and throwing tantrums about how different it may or may not be.

You can't knock the Daleks for not doing stairs a; because a Dalek is basically a small tank from an alien world unused to stairs, and b; because one flaoted upstairs in Remembrance. Cybermen's internals can be clogged by gold dust (presumably because of its high density), a rational idea from Gerry Davis.

Thinking about Dals that comes from an article so is probably a non-point. The Kaleds they descended from presumably were being described in the Thal history. A thousand year war degraded them, as T. Nation pointed out.

Novels based on TV dramas are not canon. Each form is it's own canon.

Are you saying that the people on the Ark and in Frontios are not human as stated? The contradiction is hard to avoid.

I didn't say that, at all (you're assuming)...Humans evolve and change over time (it doesn't mean they ever really stop being humans), they would definitely evolve differently if they settled on alien worlds. To believe that they'd remain exactly the same a million or more years into the future is height of arrogance and stupidity.

So Doctor Who novels aren't canon, but you consider the Peter Cushing, Doctor Who films still Doctor Who?

I note taht you descend to insults when I refute your argument with a quote from a story you vaguely cited. Life usually means biology, sometimes sentience, TARDIS has neither.

Ah...But life doesn't need biology (or sentience), Rob...Non-biological life is a staple of science fiction, you should know that.

The Cornell episode, silly dragons appear because time has been altered, pure fantasy. You raised a point about a satan character, not me. You left a list of familiar stories, none of which backs your argument and no actual points on or from them. Personal name calling is no match for a rational argument.

They weren't dragons, Rob...They were called Reapers (cosmic cleaners). Regardless of what you believe is fantasy and what is Science Fiction...Daleks from an alien world called Skaro and Cybermen from Mondas, Refusians, Quarks, the Animus, Menoptera...Are all still just fantasy, Rob....Please get used to it. Doctor Who is not straight up sci-fi...It never has been. It is science fantasy.

Dana