The men who destroyed super hero comics...

[enyawd72]

I think most of us old timers here will agree on one point...


Super hero comics are broken. The once colorful, fun adventures of costumed heroes vs. villains we enjoyed during our childhood are gone. They have been replaced by cynical, colorless, grim anti-heroes who populate a universe full of very adult violence, sex, and political correctness. Gone are the simple, entertaining tales of right vs. wrong that were once enjoyed by child and adult alike.. Now every story is an earth-shattering event, designed and constructed as little more than a corporate marketing gimmick in order to sell a new costume, or a new number one issue. A Reboot. A Relaunch. A Reinvention. These “event” storylines have become the new normal, and ironically are therefore non-events. A character is killed. Another character changes race, or gender, or comes out as gay, or Republican, or whatever. It’s all so tiring.

So where did it all go so terribly, horribly wrong? Well that is an interesting question. Superhero comics were doing just fine in the 1940’s. They were enjoyed by children AND adults, as evidenced by their popularity with U.S. soldiers during World War 2. They were fun, entertaining escapism, and that is the key word here. Escapism. Tales of super powered beings running around in primary colored undies dispatching bad guys with a WHAM! Pow! Bam! were never meant to be taken seriously. Even in the 1960’s, Marvel comics’ new approach at bringing a level of sincerity to super heroes didn’t forget to leave the fun and fantasy aspect intact. Marvel comics at that time were hugely popular with both children and young adults of the college set. They found that perfect happy medium that everyone could enjoy. So what happened?

Fast forward to my high school years. It was 1988. I was 16 years old and still reading comics. I was a subscriber to Amazing Spider-Man and was really enjoying the black costume/Hobgoblin era. I was also enjoying Jerry Ordway’s take on Superman. Heck, I still even occasionally played with my Super Powers and Secret Wars figures! Comics were, for the most part still wholesome, classic stuff. Then I bought copies of “The Killing Joke” and “The Dark Knight Returns” and everything changed. You see, my dad used to read all my comics when I was finished with them. He enjoyed them as much as I did. When I finished reading Killing Joke, I don’t believe my 16 year old brain was quite capable of processing it. When my dad read it, the proverbial **** hit the fan. “What is this garbage?” he said. “A girl shot through the spine, then stripped naked?” He thought it was sick, and you know what? He was right. DKR fared even worse with dear old dad.

Remember the death of Gwen Stacy? It was a serious affair. A defining moment, yet it was handled with care. It wasn’t gratuitous, or even violent. It didn’t need to be. It was shocking enough within the context of the story, yet there is nothing there to offend. So again, what happened? Well, Frank Miller and Alan Moore happened. They let the genie out of the bottle. They created the monster. They destroyed super hero comics in some kind of warped mission to make them appeal to adults. They introduced elements that should never have been. It’s the old Frankenstein parallel. They were so concerned with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should. Instead of acting as temporary custodians, they mistakenly thought that these characters were theirs to do with as they please, not realizing that in doing so, they were taking their innocence away from the next generation of young readers. Batman a violent, murdering psychotic? Catwoman a prostitute? No thanks.

It’s hard to believe that in 1986, the same year “The Dark Knight Returns” debuted, we still had Super Friends on TV. Four years later Batman was a completely different character, and the old Batman never came back. Since that turning point, the darkness that Frank Miller and Alan Moore brought to comics has continued to spread like a disease, infecting the entire DC and Marvel universes.
Superman is a reluctant hero and killer. Spider-Man is making deals with the Devil. The Joker is wearing his face stapled on. Wonder Woman is a sexed up barbarian. The rest of our heroes are self absorbed jerks who spend as much time fighting each other as they do crime. They display the worst attributes of humanity, not the best. The worlds they inhabit are bleak, depressing mirrors of our own everyday reality. Their once colorful costumes replaced with drab fatigues designed to be “realistic”. And that’s the problem. Reality has no place in these worlds. Super hero comics don’t need to be realistic, violent, or shocking. They don’t need to be earth-shattering events, or even politically or socially relevant. All they ever need to be is entertaining. That’s it. So forget about reality .Bring back the fantasy and escapism. Bring back the FUN.

[thunderbolt]

you've got to blame the audience, too. Miller and Moore wrote those books, but fandom ate them up. They could have went over like lead balloons, but they didn't. The sheep mentality of most comic fans I knew when that stuff hit was what put them over. At the time, DC/Warner was smart to cultivate a more "grown up" Batman and creepier Joker, it paved the way for the Burton movie and helped make it the huge hit it was. Both books you mention were well done and can stand alone as one off stories, but unfortunately DC took them as a sign that its what the public wanted for its flagship character and eventually over almost 30 years its spread its influence through all of superhero comics, even darkening up Marvel more than it ever was. The problem with it applying to everything is you get no contrast anymore to shine a light on the darkness. That is what is missing from the Batman/Superman movie, Batman is dark and brooding, but Superman should be all about what is great in humanity, not another damaged character like Bruce Wayne.

[The Bat]

I'm going to play Devil's advocate for a minute. I think comics had to evolve or die out. As fond as I am of the old stuff(and I have lots of them in my collection)...can you imagine if Doctor Doom was still spouting things like..."It was you who sought to defeat me, but in the end it is I who will ultimately destroy you!" If a writer try to write something that over the top now a days he'd be fired. I'm not defending the lost of innocence of the "glory days" of comics. But like us...comics grew up as well. It's just a simple fact of life...evolve or die.

[thunderbolt]

Comics needed to evolve, extreme violence and gratuitous sex is not really evolving, tho. Its pandering. Just look to Byrne's Fantastic Four to see how better complex storytelling makes for better comics. His work on Doom really gave that character more depth than his portrayal as a one dimensional comic book villain.

[The Bat]

Comics needed to evolve, extreme violence and gratuitous sex is not really evolving, tho. Its pandering. Just look to Byrne's Fantastic Four to see how better complex storytelling makes for better comics. His work on Doom really gave that character more depth than his portrayal as a one dimensional comic book villain.

Totally agree with that Joe! But I was not referring to the extreme violence and gratuitous sex as part of that evolution(like I said, I was playing Devil's advocate). John Byrne's FANTASTIC FOUR run is a great example of good storytelling, while still keep the "old Comics" feel to it. Couldn't agree more.

[enyawd72]

you've got to blame the audience, too. Miller and Moore wrote those books, but fandom ate them up.

When I first read "Killing Joke" I didn't know exactly what to make of it. I don't know if it was truly a case of eating it up...for me anyway. I felt like I shouldn't be reading this...like I was somehow getting away with something. Maybe that was the attraction. My dad wasn't fooled however. He saw it for what it was. An unnecessarily violent, sexually perverted, disturbing piece of writing that ultimately didn't make the Joker any more crazy than when Cesar Romero played him on TV...so what was the point?

[Hedji]

^THIS. Wow, Dwayne, you really gave voice to my feelings on the state of Superheroes today. Thunderbolt is right too, though. People eat it up and they make more.

I know my criticisms of modern Superhero fare often make me come across as a Nancy Negative, and I hate that. I wish they'd bring back the fun. And the COLOR. And artists who know anatomy. And people who studied How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way. And the old style coloring. I'm a real visual guy, and I just hate the way comic books are drawn and colored now. They're ugly.

I've stopped with comics altogether. Even the Batman66 comic wasn't doing it for me. The last book I really enjoyed was Mike Allred's Madman, and that was just because it was quirky fun.

I agree with you 110% though. It was Miller, and Moore, and the adoring, hungry fanboys who wanted comics to grow up. Me? I don't want my comics to grow up. I really don't need them to evolve. I just need them to be there for me when I want to escape life's sometimes grim realities, and be reminded of the virtues of heroism. Oh well, there's always Marvel Masterworks. Oh wait they cancelled those.

To be honest, I've always been more of a movie guy anyway. But I don't want to take this too far off topic, since the thread is specifically about comics. But the success of Superhero Movies is connected to the comics now. In fact, it's the cart dragging the horse.

I do think there is a place for more adult fare. The problem is, it's the standard instead of the exception. And so the books for kids are really "kiddie fare" and there's really no middle class books for both kids and adults to enjoy.

[enyawd72]

I have to wonder...do either Miller or Moore realize the damage they've done? Are they even capable or recognizing it?
Or are they in denial?

I believe they're like a once beautiful celebrity who keeps becoming more and more monstrous through plastic surgery, but they honestly can't see it. They feel it's somehow an improvement.

[Hedji]

Can we add Todd McFarlane and Jim Lee to the list? I know that will offend many here. But they're the two who uglified the art style for me. Flamboyant detail over anatomy and consistent clarity.

I miss Jazzy Johnny Romita.

[PNGwynne]

Someone said that progress will eventually make conservatives of us all.

Moore's and Miller's work hit when I was in college and I admit I enjoyed their "adult" take on heroes. I still greatly admire Watchmen and The Killing Joke on their own terms. V for Vendetta is a masterpiece IMO. For me, the problem as has been mentioned is that it all became canonical and a virtual style-guide for '90s comics. And also, adult readership and speculation of comics exploded in the 90s, so the Big Two chased the money. Toons were for us "kids"--luckily we ended up with some good ones.

I agree with many sentiments expressed here. I collected comics from about 1981 to 2003. I missed some great stuff, but discovered some, too. But I felt frustrated and betrayed by the eventual house changes over those years--both in art and storytelling. Batman in text and film has become unrecognizable to me. (Although, Schumacher's last film was comic-y and pretty awful.) Captain Marvel has been utterly ruined. I do understand the dismay & frustration that has been expressed, I share it, too.

But we older readers have the advantage of picking and choosing our memories and preferences. We recall the Silver and Bronze-Age gold and ignore the dross. Hindsight is often 20/20 and nostalgia can color our analysis. That said, I think because of media intertwinement, we won't see comics more to our preference anytime soon. DC had Vertigo and published some fantastic, ground-breaking, "adult" comics but maintained a core of family-friendly titles. All that has changed in the new millennium--now I sadly realize JL8 is better than any DC puts out. I'd agree with Hedji about me desire for well-done mid-range books, but I doubt they are willing to risk it. Print books are now just vanity productions for copyright protection.

One last thing: I'm tired, desperately exhausted actually, by cries of PC here in discussing changes in media. That perjorative is not synonymous with good manners, tolerance, inclusiveness, or diversity in storytelling. Please stop using it as a critical trope and a crutch for personal bias.