Superman v Batman trailer leaked

[Nostalgiabuff]

i agree with most of what has been said, but I still think this movie looks awesome and can't wait to see it. it's true that MOS was a dark movie and not as true to the character as it should have been, but that is because our Superman, is of a different era. this Superman is the modern era, and we don't necessarily see him the same way

[huedell]

Put simply: The 2 critical factions of "comicbook nerdom" and "movie critic geeks" came together a few years back, and in a desperate bid for mainstream culture validity, overrated the Nolan series, which, taken on the whole, was mediocre at best.

Now, in 2015, all DC fans are finally reaping what they've sown.

I still hold hope, though. Ain't over til its over

[kingdom warrior]

The old guard hates it....the younger generation seems to love it....it's gonna make a boat load of money...here and overseas. Sorry to say most movie goers don't read comics; and this moody depressing crap is what the younger generation likes.

[huedell]

The old guard hates it....the younger generation seems to love it....it's gonna make a boat load of money...here and overseas. Sorry to say most movie goers don't read comics; and this moody depressing crap is what the younger generation likes.

They like it because they have been taught by the old guard to keep an eye towards a "drawn-by-corporate-committee disgusting union of Nolan and Miller" tone---

...and, now the hardcore comic fans of old and "edgier" movie critics who needed an excuse to write nice things about superhero movies and their yearning for mainstream respectability that sprouted back in the "Batman Begins-era" is manifesting in what we're seeing here w/the recent Batman Vs. Superman material.

And with the success of Avengers, it's inevitable: The younger generation are clamoring, and the committee-run WB DC guys are slopping out the "feed", and the wiser younger fans? They won't realize how much these movies have fallen short til it's way too late.

Sure, not all of them will have regrets----I mean, look at this situation: There's still a sizable faction of twenty-somethings Star Wars fans in 2015 (that were MUCH younger in 1999) who STILL think Phantom Menace was a GREAT movie----but, the wiser faction of twenty-somethings Star Wars fans have put Phantom Menace into proper perspective, and know better, and like the old Star Wars guard are hoping that TFA will make a 4th good SW movie.

Is this "dryer DCCU trend" as much a misstep as the SW prequels??... not exactly, but it's the most simple analogy I could think of.

And....one last thing of note:

The younger generation doesn't read comics?

Well, neither do I, but I can see what's going on here with these Batman Vs. Superman missteps---that's for sure.

And, whatever we may have disagreed on in the past as far as opinions on superhero movies---it APPEARS that that BVS is ONE movie where, at least at THIS point, most of us are in agreement.

But, again, I hope DC/WB surprises us. I still have hope.

I'd even settle for that even if "I" don't enjoy BVS... I hope at least the majority of you guys feeling bad about this now are pleasantly surprised, at least, when the movie is actually released in full.

[enyawd72]

^I see it like this...I may be an overly nostalgic old fart, but I think super heroes should inspire. They should make you feel good when you read them, or watch them on TV, or see them in a movie. They should be positive, uplifting, and most of all, fun. You should come away from them feeling better about yourself and humanity as a whole. I think Marvel gets that, and DC does not.

Batman has become ridiculously depressing in his modern incarnation. He's a miserable human being that quite frankly, I want nothing to do with. The early Batman stories in 1939-1940 were serious in tone, but Batman wasn't a distrustful, cynical SOB in them either. Yeah, Frank Miller grew up, and he wanted his comics to grow up too. Well, they did. Unfortunately, they left their innocence behind in the process, and they've NEVER gotten it back.

[The Bat]

Batman has become ridiculously depressing in his modern incarnation. He's a miserable human being that quite frankly, I want nothing to do with. The early Batman stories in 1939-1940 were serious in tone, but Batman wasn't a distrustful, cynical SOB in them either. Yeah, Frank Miller grew up, and he wanted his comics to grow up too. Well, they did. Unfortunately, they left their innocence behind in the process, and they've NEVER gotten it back.

I don't disagree with this. Miller did change BATMAN forever in a way...and since then every Writer has followed suit. But despite this...I still feel he kept the essence of the character. He explained his motivation's and character like no one has ever done before.

[enyawd72]

I don't disagree with this. Miller did change BATMAN forever in a way...and since then every Writer has followed suit. But despite this...I still feel he kept the essence of the character. He explained his motivation's and character like no one has ever done before.

I agree he did keep the essence of the character, I just think he went overboard with it. The problem now is, Batman is officially the "Debbie Downer" of the DCU, and he tends to bring everyone else around him down too, and some characters shouldn't be brought down...Superman and Wonder Woman being the best examples.

[The Bat]

Agreed on Superman...he's meant to "walk in the Sun." His world should be bright(notice you mostly see him in the Daytime). But Batman uses the "dark" to further his persona and mystique. Criminals are superstitious and cowardly lot. He operates from the shadows to purposely terrify his prey and make them wonder if he's truly Human.

[RickD]

I absolutely loved Christopher Reeves as Superman. I even have a special place in my heart for Superman 3 and 4 (most people hate these two, but they have grown on me over the years). Watching the opening credits of 1978 Christopher Reeves Superman still gives me chills and a grin from ear to ear.

I watched George Reeves Adventures of Superman when I was a kid. Fantastic show!

Superman Returns with Brandon Routh was great! I loved the Airplane scene and wish there was more of that in the movie!

Never watched Lois and Clarke or Smallville and don't care to.

With that being said, I disagree with the statement of the younger generation loves only the moody crap. The younger generation knows only these newer movies because they were never brought up to know the older films with Christopher Reeves or the older shows with George Reeves. The younger kids today would probably think they were uncool because there is no CGI or violence. Unless their parents bring them up differently, which I will do for my son and I'm sure the majority of the members on here have done the same for their kids, the kids in this generation only know their electronics, social media, and what movie studios put out in today's standards.

I definitely understand where people are coming from on this thread(I agree with most on this thread) but I never thought in a million years we would get Batman VS Superman so I'm going to enjoy the ride even if it has a dark nature to the movie.

[Hedji]

From Hedji's Dictionary:

SuperHero(n)
1. A colorfully clad person with special powers that is inspiring, powerful, and has a strong sense of good. A role model for children.
2. A Badass


I think we're pretty much at definition #2 now. Even cinematic Marvel isn't totally immune to it, but they get it much more right. Any kid growing up today figures that to be a hero, all you need to do is be a badass. And that's sad.

I'm doing my best to subvert this damage. Here's the back of the trading card I handed out to over 500 kids last weekend:

[thunderbolt]

^^ number two shouldn't be in that definition.

[The Bat]

Yeah, Frank Miller grew up, and he wanted his comics to grow up too. Well, they did. Unfortunately, they left their innocence behind in the process, and they've NEVER gotten it back.

Hmm...sounds a lot like life doesn't it? As Thomas Wolfe said..."you can never go home again." I know if comic books had grown with me, I wouldn't still be reading them. I believe it was in Miller's hayday that they started calling Comics graphic novels.

[palitoy]

I personally think that Miller's the Dark Knight brought attention to comics as an adult medium because it was rife with exploitation. The media picked up this "comics aren't for kids anymore" angle because he used graphic violence and made Catwoman a prostitute. He injected the elements of those "Men's magazines" your uncle used to buy.

There were plenty of "grown up" comics written before and after, there is much better material out there too.

While I wince at this film's clinging to Miller as inspiration, it also doesn't seem to get that right either. The trailer gives us brooding, gloomy brooding....everybody. The washed out colour seems kind of passe and not a good fit for the subject matter.

I liked MOS and I think they've got a good cast, I just wish they'd stop painting everyone with Batman's brush. It's bland and Superhero films should have some joy in them.

Still gonna see it but unlike Avengers 2 (or MoS for that matter) I probably won't have the family in tow.

[hedrap]

While I agree with the sentiments of what's being said, it's treating WB/DC as if it exists in a vacuum of time and culture. Adam West voiced a lot of same complaints about Batman89, and that's light fare by today. It's not that things have just gotten heavier, but that the 4-color pop of DC has been attempted. This is a cyclical game.

With everything that worked, one begat the other. Blade came out from New Line the year after WB released Batman & Robin. Same company, different divisions, and anyone at Marvel will tell you that Blade's success was the only thing that made X-Men possible and those closed WB off from making superhero movies. Matrix had a massive influence on X-Men, Spidey was heavily influenced by Batman89, Batman Begins was only possible because of Spidey, Iron Man was a total retread of Begins. So the two do play off of each other by trying to mimic what elements had succeeded and if those can be used with a different tone. Otherwise, the reaction is going to be "DC is just ripping off Marvel", or vice versa. If Movie Tony Stark was as serious as he had been depicted in the comics for decades, Iron Man does not get the great pop culture reviews that were all based around RDJ. It would have been an overt rip on Begins and derided as such. Thanos, Darkseid, Asgard, Krypton, Batsuit, Iron suit...it's all too similar to take a similar approach.

Where Marvel started, (Blade, X-Men, Spidey, Hulk, Punisher, Daredevil) compared to the current success with the Zemeckis/Spielberg adventure model are near opposites. And that's fine, but it also means people start digging for seriousness, which is how Marvel succeeded in the first place as WB had taken it all for a gag. Winter Soldier is the perfect example of people mining for deep thought.

Consider if WB did a straight-up STAS-inspired Man of Steel. The consensus would say it's a hybrid of Iron Man/Thor/Cap/Spidey. You then have to look at the cost/return of those movies, then compare it against Returns. That, then doubled by promotional costs, gives an estimate of where to aim to at least make your return on theatrical. But the only surefire way to beat "seen it" word-of-mouth is to follow the Michael Bay model and flood the movie with VFX. Superman does not do that kind of business.

So Nolan/Goyer pitched a TDK version of Superman because Returns did not work and Begins did. Combine that with the success of the video games, which are darker than the movies, and WB is looking at the trend of what's catching on. Arkham Knight comes out this summer, and it's going to own the game market. That's as big as the Film/TV markets now. The one clear shot of Affleck in the BvS trailer resembles the Arkham Batman suit more than any current design.

The irony is Marvel's biggest series success is with Daredevil, which shows Marvel Knights is going to trend darker than the movies, whereas the DC series are adventure meldorama comparable in a Marvel-Lite fashion.

[The Bat]

While I agree with the sentiments of what's being said, it's treating WB/DC as if it exists in a vacuum of time and culture. Adam West voiced a lot of same complaints about Batman89, and that's light fare by today. It's not that things have just gotten heavier, but that the 4-color pop of DC has been attempted. This is a cyclical game.

With everything that worked, one begat the other. Blade came out from New Line the year after WB released Batman & Robin. Same company, different divisions, and anyone at Marvel will tell you that Blade's success was the only thing that made X-Men possible and those closed WB off from making superhero movies. Matrix had a massive influence on X-Men, Spidey was heavily influenced by Batman89, Batman Begins was only possible because of Spidey, Iron Man was a total retread of Begins. So the two do play off of each other by trying to mimic what elements had succeeded and if those can be used with a different tone. Otherwise, the reaction is going to be "DC is just ripping off Marvel", or vice versa. If Movie Tony Stark was as serious as he had been depicted in the comics for decades, Iron Man does not get the great pop culture reviews that were all based around RDJ. It would have been an overt rip on Begins and derided as such. Thanos, Darkseid, Asgard, Krypton, Batsuit, Iron suit...it's all too similar to take a similar approach.

Where Marvel started, (Blade, X-Men, Spidey, Hulk, Punisher, Daredevil) compared to the current success with the Zemeckis/Spielberg adventure model are near opposites. And that's fine, but it also means people start digging for seriousness, which is how Marvel succeeded in the first place as WB had taken it all for a gag. Winter Soldier is the perfect example of people mining for deep thought.

Consider if WB did a straight-up STAS-inspired Man of Steel. The consensus would say it's a hybrid of Iron Man/Thor/Cap/Spidey. You then have to look at the cost/return of those movies, then compare it against Returns. That, then doubled by promotional costs, gives an estimate of where to aim to at least make your return on theatrical. But the only surefire way to beat "seen it" word-of-mouth is to follow the Michael Bay model and flood the movie with VFX. Superman does not do that kind of business.

So Nolan/Goyer pitched a TDK version of Superman because Returns did not work and Begins did. Combine that with the success of the video games, which are darker than the movies, and WB is looking at the trend of what's catching on. Arkham Knight comes out this summer, and it's going to own the game market. That's as big as the Film/TV markets now. The one clear shot of Affleck in the BvS trailer resembles the Arkham Batman suit more than any current design.

The irony is Marvel's biggest series success is with Daredevil, which shows Marvel Knights is going to trend darker than the movies, whereas the DC series are adventure meldorama comparable in a Marvel-Lite fashion.

Well said and very well thought out. I'm glad you mentioned the DareDevil TV series...it's grim, gritty and the fight scenes are down right BRUTAL! Yet I don't hear many people complaining...they're LOVING IT! And since the DareDevil character is a bit of a Batman rip-off...what's the fuss? Oh right...Superman is in the Movie so we have to "lighten it up."