Has Batman gotten too dark?

[enyawd72]

I love Batman...always have since the days of the TV series. The '77 Filmation cartoon is my favorite animated version.
I also loved the 80's-90's era with Batman Year One and Dark Knight Returns, the 89' movie and so on, right up until The Dark Knight. Then something strange changed.

I find I can't really stomach repeated viewings of The Dark Knight, because it's just sodepressing. The entire movie is just such a downer. I enjoy the action scenes, and yes, Heath Ledger is brilliant, but the movie itself just isn't FUN. It leaves you feeling empty and washed out at the end. That's the problem I have with the state of Batman today. Now that Brave and the Bold is gone, it seems there is nothing left of Batman but the constant doom and gloom, and it's really quite emotionally draining.

The same type of somber mood seems to have permeated a lot of today's comics but I think Batman in particular has been too dark for too long, and it's made him into a character that's just not enjoyable anymore.

[palitoy]

I've said it a lot in the last few years but TDK is a great film but it's not a great Batman movie IMO. I like it but it strays from the concept and is far to dreary.

Can't speak about the comics but I don't think Batman is general is too dark. We've had TAS (still the best adaptation of the character for my money), JLU and Brave and the Bold which were all fun.

With the Avengers standing to make a billion this month, it's likely the next Bat reboot will be a touch lighter.

[EMCE Hammer]

The previews for the next one are just as hardcore. I expect to find the film OK, but wish for something different. I just hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other way and we end up back in Clooneyville for the next go round.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I'd say yes overall. I enjoy Nolan's movies a lot, but they are emotionally draining. I do appreciate their adherence to Batman's code of ethics, which the previous movies often threw to the side. While darker, Batman is more admirably heroic in Nolan's film on the whole. Sure, he breaks Eric Robert's ankles, but he didn't shove a bomb down his pants, or open up with a hail of machine guns.

As I posted in the thread on the third DKR trailer, I feel this movie is going to be gut-wrenching, but I feel it will end on uplifting note. Batman Begins was the high, DK and the first part of DKR are probably the absolute low, and then he'll rise above. Or something like that.

I haven't read new Batman comics in four years, so I can't really comment there. I do miss B&B, and it looks like the new "Beware the Batman" will be quite a bit darker. BTAS struck the best balance since the 70s comics of giving us a grim but compassionate, heroic Batman that was appropriate for about any age.

Chris

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

I suspect part of it's you. Back in the day the dark Batman appealed to folks of our generation 'cos we were teenagers and the harder, grittier Bats appealed to the hormone dirven tastes of an awkward teen. Now that we're old we fond life itself is dark and hard enough, so we're turned off of that sort of thing story-wise.

Don C.

[Wee67]

I've said it a lot in the last few years but TDK is a great film but it's not a great Batman movie IMO. I like it but it strays from the concept and is far to dreary.

Interesting. I do feel TDK was more than a great superhero movie. It was simply a great movie. I don't know if the Batman cvharacter was taken too far into the dark, but the film itself is definitely a very dark story. In a way, the bad guy actually won in the end- the Joker succeeded in breaking the best, bright hope for Gotham (Dent) and Batman is not credited with saving the day(Not the the hero Gotahm wants, but the hero Gotham needs). PLUS, he kills the love of Bruce's life.

However, Batman does beat the temptation of becoming the darkness he fights (doesn't kill the Joker in revenge for the girl and Harvey, shuts down the listening device). He does live up to his code.

I dont' read the comic as much, but what I have seen takes some of Batman's borderline psychological disorders/traits to such an extreme that he seems almost clinically disturbed. The few storylines I've read have him almost being cruel to the people around him. That protrayal is sometimes disturbing.

[enyawd72]

Hmmmm....

I suspect part of it's you. Back in the day the dark Batman appealed to folks of our generation 'cos we were teenagers and the harder, grittier Bats appealed to the hormone dirven tastes of an awkward teen. Now that we're old we fond life itself is dark and hard enough, so we're turned off of that sort of thing story-wise.

Don C.

You make an excellent point. I'm not into horror films like I used to be...I enjoy monster movies like The Wolf Man, but the torture/killing stuff like Saw and such is a major turnoff.

[Hector]

I love Batman dark...that makes him stand out.

I for one...was never a big fan of the 60s show (***ducks***).

The ORIGINAL Batman comics were dark.

That's how Batman should stay...leave the rainbow coloring to The Avengers movies, lol.

[palitoy]

You know, I find the whole Warner Brothers take on Superheroes misguided.

I have a 9 year old kid, we're both big DC fans, yet we've never been to a DC comics movie in his lifetime. On the flip side, Avengers movies have been father/son events.

I deemed Batman:Begins, TDK and Superman Returns far too mature for him at the time.

The worst for me was Green Lantern, that should have been our first DC movie. Having been warned I saw it alone before I took him.

The movie has nightmarish sequences and tons of swearing, both do little to further the story or character. It's a movie about a space cop with a magic ring, it should have been all ages instead it was made "dark".

[clemso]

Yeah, i felt depressed after watching that DKR trailer. Its certainly not a all family event.

[rche]

you don't need rainbow colors or over the top violence to have a good detective story.

[rche]

there was a bit of comedy at the end of that last trailer.
cat - I don't usually get in cars with strange men
grumbly voice dude - it's not a car

hilarious

[Mikey]

I put the recent Batman movies in the same catagory as the recent James Bond movies ... They take themselves too seriously and in a way it's embarrassing to watch them --- meaning they feel like they're made only for "hardcore" fans.

[The Bat]

I love Batman dark...that makes him stand out.

I for one...was never a big fan of the 60s show (***ducks***).

The ORIGINAL Batman comics were dark.

That's how Batman should stay...leave the rainbow coloring to The Avengers movies, lol.

RIGHT ON Hector!!:hokay: Once again we see eye to eye.:wink:

[Earth 2 Chris]

I think the character can still maintain his integrity and darkness with a somewhat lighter approach. BTAS/TNBA/JLU proved that.

My only grumble with the Nolan films is part of me wishes they were more accessible to kids. I appreciate the sincerity and realism Nolan brings to the films, but it's that real-world 'this is almost possible" feel that makes the movies a bit too disturbing for young kids. I'm torn as a true, die-hard Batman fan, and a dad who would like to enjoy the movies with my kids without fear of scarring them for life.

I wouldn't mind a different take now that Nolan is done after DKR. As long as we don't go back to Schumacher-ville.

Chris

[palitoy]

As long as we don't go back to Schumacher-ville.


It seems like people think these are the only two options, really dark or biff! Bang! Sploing! with nipple suits.

Batman doesn't need to be Adam West to be lighter in tone, he doesn't have to be any less a badass either. I don't remember anyone saying Iron Man, Thor or Captain America were campy movies.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^Right. Batman can be a bad arse in a straight-up actioner ala the Marvel films.

It will be interesting to see how Avengers performs vs. DKR. If DKR comes out on top, expect WB to assign the franchise to a Nolan-like-minded individual. If Avenger leads, WB will try to copy Marvel's formula.

Either way, I think Nolan is still due to produce the Batman films even after DKR, so his influence may still be felt in some way. I don't think you'll ever get Adam West or Schumacher with him involved in any way.

[samurainoir]

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[madmarva]

I like Nolan's Batman films, but my favorite version of Batman is more like the 70s and early 80s version of the character or like the Batman Animated version. I think a version like that executed as well as Nolan has his films would do gangbuster business. Sure it could have all the battrappings, but it wouldn't have to take it as far as the 60s show or the final three 90s Batman films.

I thought the first IronMan movie had just the right tone. It was cool, but not so harsh.

As Palitoy mentioned the Green Lantern film was so all over the place. Some of it was too silly to me, while other parts made me wonder who the audience was for the film.

I really hope Snyder gets the Superman movie right, but I hate that everyone says it's darker. Yes, the villains or evil needs to be a threat, but the tone of a supeman movie shouldn't be dark. To me it should be inspiring and hopeful.

[Hector]

RIGHT ON Hector!!:hokay: Once again we see eye to eye.:wink:

:smiley13: :yes: :grin:

http://megomuseum.com/community/images/smilies/wink_y.gif

[Zemo]

I love Batman dark...that makes him stand out


Absolutely. The Dark Knights Billion dollar worldwide gross speaks for itself.

[kingdom warrior]

I like Batman dark, I still feel they haven't done a really really hard core Pulp noir Detective Batman movie.

That's why, I'd like to see something different after the Nolan movies. I said it in another post. a Trilogy of Elseworlds movie where we see different versions of Batman,would be far better IMO than have another guy in that damn rubber suit for three more movies....

[samurainoir]

I stand alone in wanting a live action Brave and Bold, with the voice actors playing their animated counterparts. Particularly ambush bug and batmite.

[huedell]

To me... Batman being dark is key to the DCU... Supes is well-adjusted
and light.... a glass is half full type... and Batman is the opposite...
regardless of if they ever show up in the same film together, it makes
the DCU rich, I feel.

However, I think Batman's dark side needs to contrast SOMEone
in his own films... yes, the successful box office speaks for a lot re: Nolan's
films... but that's not how I'd do it.... I'd put more eccentric fun
(even wickedly fun) characters in the films... Ledger's Joker
is actually more along the lines of what I'd populate the movies with.

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

Y'know, I didn't find the last couple films all that dark. They kinda LOOK darker.... Harvey's head was pretty realistic and gruesome.... but conceptually they weren't really any darker than any other take. There were episodes of the 90's cartoon that had ideas and stories just as bad.... maybe worse, if you correct for bright colours.

Don C.

[Godzilla]

I think the recent Batman movies and Brave and the Bold TV show have shown that you can have different interpretations of the same character existing at the same time and no one will care. I like them both, for different reasons.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^Well put.

Chris

[sprytel]

I think the recent Batman movies and Brave and the Bold TV show have shown that you can have different interpretations of the same character existing at the same time and no one will care. I like them both, for different reasons.

I agree with you.

But now that all the comic companies are part of these giant media conglomerates, the trend is towards more "vertical integration". They seem to think the Batman you see on the movie screen should look and act like the Batman in your comic book, your toy chest, your animated TV show, etc. etc. I guess they think we will get confused.

[Gorn Captain]

Even though I like the new films, I wouldn't have chosen Bane as the next (and perhaps last Nolan) bad guy. I think Batman needs a little dose of fantasy, and Bane is too "real world", him being a drug addict.
I already thought they made the Joker "real world" enough, and to be honest, I wasn't over the moon about Ledger's take on it.

They push back the fantasy element more and more, and that just takes you out of that special environment. It's as if Darth Vader is fighting Luke, and he pauses a moment to get his asthma inhaler. True, it might be realistic, but it doesn't fit into that particular world.

The new movie doesn't really have that much appeal to me...

[Hector]

I wanna see Dark Knight Rises more than The Avengers...but that's just me.

[samurainoir]

I agree with you.

But now that all the comic companies are part of these giant media conglomerates, the trend is towards more "vertical integration". They seem to think the Batman you see on the movie screen should look and act like the Batman in your comic book, your toy chest, your animated TV show, etc. etc. I guess they think we will get confused.

I'd argue cross horizontal integration... A different Batman for multiple demographics at the end of the day nets Warners more profit than the singular batman you describe... If you start your lifelong consumer off with fisher price little people Batman, superfriends, work them through action league, brave and bold, Adam west show, the upcoming CG show, the animated feature library/JLU/young justice, Arkham city/DCU online, the keaton films, Dark knight rises. there is a batman variant for every day of the month!

Plus you split the licensing... More $$$ if you can license out the brave and bold batman for pajamas and lunch boxes, separate from the Dark knight movie batman for Hot toys and statues, or Arkham city for action figures. That is why we'll likely never see a movie batman that looks like the comic book version. Why should a someone pay premium for a movie license Of the character if it's Not distinguishable from the comic book version?

[enyawd72]

I'd argue cross horizontal integration... A different Batman for multiple demographics at the end of the day nets Warners more profit than the singular batman you describe... If you start your lifelong consumer off with fisher price little people Batman, superfriends, work them through action league, brave and bold, Adam west show, the upcoming CG show, the animated feature library/JLU/young justice, Arkham city/DCU online, the keaton films, Dark knight rises. there is a batman variant for every day of the month!

Plus you split the licensing... More $$$ if you can license out the brave and bold batman for pajamas and lunch boxes, separate from the Dark knight movie batman for Hot toys and statues, or Arkham city for action figures. That is why we'll likely never see a movie batman that looks like the comic book version. Why should a someone pay premium for a movie license Of the character if it's Not distinguishable from the comic book version?

That certainly seems like the logical way to go, but we're dealing with DC here...every incarnation of Superman must now be briefless or we'll get confused.

[Cosmicman]

Batman has been sort of a turd in the punch bowl lately with a lot of people. I think a good director with a little history and some kind of a classic Neil Adams costume on the actor and a total reboot to that franchise could help.
I'm not a fan of Christian Bale or any of those Nolan directed movies.
Nothing tops the cup of crap Joel Schumacher produced. It's been all downhill for some people who like Batman since then. Maybe someday there will be somebody out there with the key to the city to make a Batman movie to our liking.
The '89 Batman movie with Keaton was not bad but that movie came out when life was more innocent and easy for me. LOL

[Thor]

I love Batman dark...that makes him stand out.

I for one...was never a big fan of the 60s show (***ducks***).

The ORIGINAL Batman comics were dark.

That's how Batman should stay...leave the rainbow coloring to The Avengers movies, lol.

I agree. Batman's entire them is dark,

[Earth 2 Chris]

Batman has been sort of a turd in the punch bowl lately with a lot of people. I think a good director with a little history and some kind of a classic Neil Adams costume on the actor and a total reboot to that franchise could help.
I'm not a fan of Christian Bale or any of those Nolan directed movies.
Nothing tops the cup of crap Joel Schumacher produced. It's been all downhill for some people who like Batman since then. Maybe someday there will be somebody out there with the key to the city to make a Batman movie to our liking.
The '89 Batman movie with Keaton was not bad but that movie came out when life was more innocent and easy for me. LOL

Yeah, a $1 billion dollar turd in a punch bowl.

It may not be your cup of tea Cat, but Nolan's movies have outgrossed all of the other Bat-films. His take resonates with modern audiences.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see a different take now that Nolan is done, but his version is valid and VERY well done.

Chris

[ctc]

>I wouldn't have chosen Bane as the next (and perhaps last Nolan) bad guy.

I kinda suspect he's the latest addition to the primary rogues' gallery; one of the 5 or so baddies that we see over and over. I'd rather see the penny guy, or old school Calendar Man.... but that's me.

>Nolan's movies have outgrossed all of the other Bat-films. His take resonates with modern audiences

I dunno if that's because of the movie content, or the triumph of marketing. For years now we see sales records fall left and right to movies that nobody remembers a month after they come out.

Don C.

[The Bat]

Yeah, a $1 billion dollar turd in a punch bowl.

It may not be your cup of tea Cat, but Nolan's movies have outgrossed all of the other Bat-films. His take resonates with modern audiences.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see a different take now that Nolan is done, but his version is valid and VERY well done.

Chris


:hokay: :clap:

[Earth 2 Chris]

I dunno if that's because of the movie content, or the triumph of marketing. For years now we see sales records fall left and right to movies that nobody remembers a month after they come out.

True...but I don't think that's the case here. Begins picked up business through good word of mouth after a respectable but a somewhat lesser opening due to the stink of Batman and Robin still lingering. DK had lots of buzz going for it in production long before Ledger's death. Yes, his death and the press' obsession with the rumors of the Joker role "overtaking him" probably fueled some speculation, but that will only get you so many tickets, and probably just in the first few weeks.

I've had several people at work stop and talk to me about each trailer. There is buzz for this movie in the general public, not just us geeks. Same for Avengers, of course.

Chris

[samurainoir]

That certainly seems like the logical way to go, but we're dealing with DC here...every incarnation of Superman must now be briefless or we'll get confused.

Keep in mind that it splits the license once again... Do you want the briefless movie incarnation, the briefless Jim Lee new 52 comic version, or the classic comic version... Which they are still generating new product for despite the media attention and fan focus on briefs or no briefs. If you want an explanation of why no briefs, look no further than the need to differentiate a new movie suit design to license out.

But they definitely have not stopped churning out the classic version as product as you suggest. It looks like the trunks versions are being marketed under the brand "DC originals" now.

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