Question about Return of the Jedi

[Hector]

Ok, I've just seen ROTJ on cable for the first time since seeing Revenge of the Sith.

One major thing I noticed is that at the end of ROTJ, when Luke turns and sees the three Jedi spirits, he sees Alec Guinness as Obi Wan Kenobi, Yoda, and now, young Hayden Christensen as Anakin Skywalker.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e5/Spirits.jpg


Ok, since before this viewing, the spirit of Anakin Skywalker was actor Sebastian Shaw.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Spiritsjedi.jpg


I know Lucas made the change due to wanting continuity with his newer trilogy films.

But my question. If he had to make the change for continuity, and feature an in-his-prime Anakin (Christensen). Then why not change Kenobi from Alec Guinness to Ewan McGregor then?

So it's either Shaw and Guinness...or Christensen and McGregor.

Bloody Lucas.

:14:

[Mikey]

That's a good question, Hec...
Never thought of that :)

I personally refuse to watch those butchered movies.
To me, they're no different than CGI classic Treks.
Embarrassing to watch.

Thanks to a good bud Museum member......
I have my set of Classic Star Wars movies on DVD (recorded from original laser discs).
I wont watch any other :)

[Hector]

l also got those original SW DVD's, they're probably from the same guy in here you got 'em from, lol.

Mike, I don't mind some of the newer features added to the classic SW films, but at least be consistent, Lucas blew it, it's either Guinness and Shaw, or McGregor and Christensen...Lucas is getting all confused in his later years.

[Mikey]

l also got those original SW DVD's, they're probably from the same guy in here you got 'em from, lol.

I'm sure they are ;)

Everytime I watch Star Wars, Empire--and--Jedi on DVD, I always have a McWonderful time :smiley1:

m

[Hector]

:smiley1: :smiley1: :smiley1:

[MegoNinja]

the reason that anakin was changed is because lucas felt that Anakin 'died' when he changed to the evil side so his ghost should look like just before he 'died', if you know what I mean.
stupid if you ask me.

[toys2cool]

That is a great question and I always wondered the same thing,but what ninja said is pretty much what I've heard before

[Hector]

But that doesn't make any sense.

Darth Vader redeemed himself when he tossed the Emperor to his death.

Luke took off his helmet and revealed a human being, a father who saved his son...Darth Vader became Anakin Skywalker once again.

That's when Anakin died, not when he was young.

Besides, how the heck is Luke supposed to know what young Anakin Skywalker looked like? From a photo album? LOL!

Like I said, it's either the two old geezers together, or the two young bucks, as spirit Jedis.

Bloody Lucas.

:14:

[toys2cool]

But that doesn't make any sense.

Darth Vader redeemed himself when he tossed the Emperor to his death.

Luke took off his helmet and revealed a human being, a father who saved his son...Darth Vader became Anakin Skywalker once again.

That's when Anakin died, not when he was young.

Like I said, it's either the two old geezers together, or the two young bucks, as spirit Jedis.

Bloody Lucas.

:14:

LOL! I agree bro,but what about the Yoda,do you change him to the younger one from episode 1? or do you put him younger before his hair turned white,who knows maybe he had black hair or something :smiley1:

[Hector]

Another thing I didn't like is Yoda's change in only 30 years.

The dude was like 900 years old or something.

I don't think a measly 30 years would've changed him much.

He also turned from a benevolent but serious dude, to a jokster, all in a measly 30 years, we are talking about a very old dude here.

Here I go again...

:14:

[batmanmc]

would have been better to leave them the way they were in my opinion. mike

[toys2cool]

Another thing I didn't like is Yoda's change in only 30 years.



He also turned from a benevolent but serious dude, to a jokster, all in a measly 30 years, we are talking about a very old dude here.

Here I go again...

:14:

LOL! living in solitude under a tree for 20 years and eating that crap he eats would do that to him :grin:

[jwyblejr]

This is why you don't buy the DVD boxed set. You buy the two-packs of each movie they released in 2006 so you can sit and watch the original version and not have to watch the newer version and give yourself a headache trying to figure it all out.

[txteach]

Also, how come the ewoks can speak without moving their mouth? I guess evolution worked weird on Endor.

[DocDrako]

Yeah, and if Leia "always knew" that Luke was her brother, why did she kiss him twice? Space incest? Or lousy writing? You decide!

:grin:

[Mikey]

Also, the Emperor was really STUPID in Jedi.

He tells Luke (right in front of Darth) kill your father and take his place by my side

When Luke declines, suddenly he cozies up to Darth again while he's kicking Lukes butt.

The Emperor was really dumb for that.

He basically begged Darth to turn good and kill him.

Embarrassingly bad script writing, imo

[Dave Mc]

I have that same issue Hector. It was one of those things that irritated me most about the changes that were made.

[raider5gt]

would have been better to leave them the way they were in my opinion. mike

I agree they should of left it as it was!Also why didnt they change the bit with Lando inside the Death Star when the Tie Fighters fire at them in the Falcon and Lando says to Nien Nunb "That was too Cluse"when he should of said "that was too close":smiley1:

[Mikey]

Speaking of Lando......
They should have also cut out him saying ANAL BUDDY :smiley1:

Anybody ever notice this ?
About 5 minutes into clip
YouTube - Star Wars VI - Space Battle of Endor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZmrjT4ETLk)

m

[raider5gt]

No never noticed that but sounds like "C'mon han old buddy"

As we are on about gaffs on Star Wars,in New Hope,one of the y-wing pilots in the D.Star trench gets blown up by Vader but then re-appears in a X-wing later on (maybe he's got a twin brother) :smiley1:

[jds1911a1]

That's a good question, Hec...
Never thought of that :)

I personally refuse to watch those butchered movies.
To me, they're no different than CGI classic Treks.
Embarrassing to watch.

Thanks to a good bud Museum member......
I have my set of Classic Star Wars movies on DVD (recorded from original laser discs).
I wont watch any other :)

I just watch them on laserdisc

[jds1911a1]

Hec as others have noted Lucas decided to change the Special ed 98 again when the dvd release occured by replacing old anakin with the young one and yes his reason was that Anaking died in ROTS and the body died in ROTJ - fine whatever George I like that about as much as "stormtroopers are clones" ok if' that's true how come no one notices when Luke and han talk they don't have the same voice as all the other stormtroopers - which when you watch the film It sure sounds like they all have the same voice to me.

Also as a Boba Fett fan Jeremy Bullock's voice is removed from the DVD versions and replaces with Temoa Morrison (Jango Fett/Clones). A real disservice to Bulloch. I have the definitive collection on LD which is the same source as the new dvd 2 packs and got the 98 SE laserdiscs in an auction (i actually think the Empire SE is slightly better than the original). The 98 Ed hasn't been released on DVD (excluding bootlegs)

I am sure the 30th anniv will give us a new boxed set with all 3 versions and maybe even a "newly discovered" print of the tour of the ranch with Biggs. George knows star wars fans will pay, I mean how many people bought the 2004 dvd ed at just to fork over another 45-60 to get the theatrical releases in 06

[Hector]

Lucas...

:14:

[jwyblejr]

Yeah, and if Leia "always knew" that Luke was her brother, why did she kiss him twice? Space incest? Or lousy writing? You decide!

:grin:

That and the fact she remembers her real mother who died during childbirth. Sometimes Lucas makes it too easy with all of the ammo he gives you. :smiley1:

[Bo8a_Fett]

I think the main reason for Lucas's lack of clarity is he keeps coming out with ideas and is so big now (he's become the very thing he hated when getting into films ), that no one wants to tell him its a crap idea in fear of getting fired. I read that during the filming of "Jedi", Lucas wanted Yoda to live and Richard Marquand had to argue till he was blue in the face to keep that scene in.
Since Jedi there has been no one in his employ that would just say "Oi....Lucas....NOOOO!!!" they've all been pampering yes men.
So yes it is Lucas's fault but also he has been a victim of his own success.

[DocDrako]

Lucas...

:14:

Hey Hector, if you say it like "LUCAS! LUCAS!" and imagine William Shatner yelling it into a communicator, it's hilarious. But then, there are alot of things about Lucas' "improvements" that are hilarious. Maybe the USS Enterprise should have had a cameo in the prequels like the Millenium Falcon.

:2thumbsup:

And now that we know that Vader built 3PO, and he kind of "saves" him in Empire, it makes you wonder. He saves a droid he built, but doesn't mind dismembering his own son. Space psycho? Or bad writing? You decide!

[huedell]

I don't think any of the things you guys mentioned are questionable ...so we differ there...

However---
I STILL don't understand why he had to change the HAN/GREEDO thing---
that was the only wrong rewrite or choice he made in my opinion---but it was a big one

[Bizarro Amy]

>>Originally Posted by DocDrako
Yeah, and if Leia "always knew" that Luke was her brother, why did she kiss him twice? Space incest? Or lousy writing? You decide!<<

She didn't "always know" that Luke was her brother. When he tells her, she says, "I know...I've always known," because she knew there was a connection between them. In hindsight, now she realizes what the connection was the whole time.

>>That and the fact she remembers her real mother who died during childbirth.<<
She doesn't actually remember her real mother. She remembers Bail Organa's wife, who also died when Leia was young. There's one part in that conversation that she says that she recalls images of her mother being beautiful, but sad. That could still mean Mrs. Organa, but it could also be Leia using her Force sensitivity(although she's not a Jedi in the movies, it is still strong in her as part of the Skywalker line). It's also been established that strong Jedi can use the Force to see into the past.

>>"stormtroopers are clones" ok if' that's true how come no one notices when Luke and han talk they don't have the same voice as all the other stormtroopers - which when you watch the film It sure sounds like they all have the same voice to me.<<
Clones troopers were the first step in the evolution toward stormtroopers. Some of the troopers during the time of the original trilogy may have been clones, but not necessarily clones of Jango Fett. The Jango clones had been aged artificially to have them ready in time. So they also got old much faster than humans. By the time the original trilogy happened, there were very few, if any, left other than Boba Fett(and the main reason he survived as long as he did was because he had the money for doctors to prolong his life). A lot of that kind of thing is covered in some of the recent novels. I think the samples of Jango's DNA were actually lost or destroyed on Kamino. The Empire made clones of various individuals who were then trained as stormtroopers. Some of the troops actually consisted of recruits, normal humans who joined the Imperial ranks.
The stormtroopers did not all have the same voice. While all of the clones were CG and voiced by Jango Fett, stormtroopers were played by multiple actors. They didn't have excessive dialogue, and the fact that they were speaking through helmets may account for them sounding somewhat alike.

>> Also as a Boba Fett fan Jeremy Bullock's voice is removed from the DVD versions and replaces with Temoa Morrison (Jango Fett/Clones). A real disservice to Bulloch.<<
It does kind of suck that you no longer hear Jeremy Bullock's voice in the new DVD releases, but I can understand why they did that. Boba was a clone of Jango, so upon maturation, he would have the same voice.

I can understand the frustration about Lucas constantly releasing new versions of the movie, but I just picked one I liked and stuck with it. This gets me a lot of flack from some other Star Wars fans, but I have no problem with the logic behind showing Anakin's spirit in his prime, before he turned to the Dark Side. It gave the scene more emotional impact for me. It always bugged me that they used Sebastian Shaw with his bushy eyebrows as the unmasked Vader anyway. The only change I really dislike is Greedo shooting first, but what can you do? It has its share of silliness as does any sci-fi epic, but I love it anyway.

[huedell]

I can understand the frustration about Lucas constantly releasing new versions of the movie, but I just picked one I liked and stuck with it. This gets me a lot of flack from some other Star Wars fans, but I have no problem with the logic behind showing Anakin's spirit in his prime, before he turned to the Dark Side. It gave the scene more emotional impact for me. It always bugged me that they used Sebastian Shaw with his bushy eyebrows as the unmasked Vader anyway. The only change I really dislike is Greedo shooting first, but what can you do? It has its share of silliness as does any sci-fi epic, but I love it anyway.


"A lot of flack" to put it mildly :)

del----your post seems like a miracle of science (or some sort of miracle) as I don't
think I've ever seen a STAR WARS fan's post on all these points that I've agreed with
more---each and every one. Usually SW fans/detractors are too anal or narrow-minded
(or both) to let their guard down on points like the one's you addressed

The STAR WARS "story" is good enough and what little writing "flaws" you
could pick out---they are all explainable to a reasonable extent as you proved in
your post---a post which I'd be too lazy to write/articulate

As far as originals vs. re-releases/SPECIAL EDITIONS
I chose the re-releases as well---because the positive changes in them WAY outweigh
the negatives---if one is a SW purist, its understandable that the remakes are inferior
pieces to you---they were from the minute Lucas started changing the original cuts--
so I'd think that'd be the end of the discussion right there.

[RussG]

In the Empire Strikes Back when Vader is talking to the Holograph Emperor and they talk about turning Luke to the dark side ... but in the new films it says there can only be two Sith a master and an apprentice. ... So either Darth is willing to die, (but we all know he wants to be the master and Luke become his apprentice) So what gets me is the Emperor thinking it's a good idea to turn Luke ???, unless he's really is stupid and thinks Vader is willing to die?????? lol

I just find it funny becasue I'm sure it's just a flaw from OT not fitting 100% right with PT, but it could also work as just more of the Emperor's ego showing.

I just got the DVD of Empire and listened to the commentary ... they all sound like they knew what they were doing except for Carrie Fisher (she must have been in la la land) and Lucas ... either over the years he's filled himself with his own BS to where he thinks it true .... or he just got very very lucky that the first 77 Star Wars came out as good as it did, and that he had other folks doing the work on ESB and ROTJ.

I'm still a Star Wars fan, it's fun stuff, I over look flaws just like I do in many movies.

[jwyblejr]

In the Empire Strikes Back when Vader is talking to the Holograph Emperor and they talk about turning Luke to the dark side ... but in the new films it says there can only be two Sith a master and an apprentice. ... So either Darth is willing to die, (but we all know he wants to be the master and Luke become his apprentice) So what gets me is the Emperor thinking it's a good idea to turn Luke ???, unless he's really is stupid and thinks Vader is willing to die?????? lol

I just find it funny becasue I'm sure it's just a flaw from OT not fitting 100% right with PT, but it could also work as just more of the Emperor's ego showing.




Actually,Palpatine is a mean s.o.b. if you think about it. He had Anakin kill Dooku with no regrets just to have a new apprentice. With what happened in ESB he's probably thinking to himself"Yeah,I'll get Luke to kill Vader and have myself a new apprentice who doesn't look like something from KFC. And if that doesn't work,Vader will kill this snot nosed brat and I'll have one less problem to deal with." He's so arrogant,he's not thinking about option three,one of those two killing him instead.

[Bo8a_Fett]

Overlooking the flaws is a fundemental part of being a fan of something...anyone that knows me will tell you how much of a fan I can be( I LOOOVE THE STAR WARS)...but i'm willing to listen to other peoples criticisms as it can create a stimulating debate. I personally hate it in some war movies when they use the wrong type of armoured vehicle or aircraft, but it doesn't detract too much from my enjoyment of the movie.
I hate the fact that Han shoots first and there are nigling flaws (Jabba's missing/extra fingers etc) but on the whole love the movies, EU, toys, comics...everything....its what makes us fans...Knowledge can help educate and change the opinions of people "not in the Know", which is why so many fans devour all and sundry about our beloved subjects.
There will always be people that dislike the object of your devotion just as you proberly dislike something someone else adores ( I am not a fan of Friends for example), and that is why debate sometimes springs up...God forbid if someone posts they hate Mego though...they would get a knife to the eye...as Frankie would eloquantly say.

[johnmiic]

It's not that we don't love Star Wars or Lucas as an artist but the technology makes it so easy it's sort'a like the Orwellian fear of controlling and distorting information. Granted this is an entertainment subject, ( because political and religious speech are vebotten on these boards-Orwellian indeed! :wink: ) but the fact that so many people can complain about these changes in ST & SW seems to confirm if it aint broken-don't fix it.

[Vortigern99]

I have to stick my head in here and thank del for writing out her long list of well-considered rebuttals to the common problems people -- casual viewers and fans alike -- have with the STAR WARS films. As a moderator at theforce.net message boards, I see and participate in discussions of this kind ad absurdium. Ultimately I've concluded two things: One, you can talk yourself in or out of any perceived plot-hole or flaw in the films; and two, such perceived flaws are purely subjective, varying wildly from one person to another. My thinking is that it takes imagination to see a plot-hole; why not use those same faculties of imagination to devise an explanation?

[huedell]

It's not that we don't love Star Wars or Lucas as an artist but the technology makes it so easy it's sort'a like the Orwellian fear of controlling and distorting information. Granted this is an entertainment subject, ( because political and religious speech are vebotten on these boards-Orwellian indeed! ) but the fact that so many people can complain about these changes in ST & SW seems to confirm if it aint broken-don't fix it.


What it confirms (to me) is that the Net is full of anal fans who won't accept, even in
the face of the success of the new trilogy and SPECIAL EDITIONS of the old one
is that if it ain't broke don't fix it----or (in this case) don't whine about it

Misinformation?----with respect, I know you gave yourself an "out" by acknowledging
that its "entertainment", but I still can't buy the resentment and hostility
from the purist STAR WARS fans with the redos---its only a movie---and if you ONLY like
the old versions of the movies...well... then just watch those.

In other words...why waste your time picking apart the new edited/enhanced versions
when you have the old ones readily available? (i.e. live & let live)


One, you can talk yourself in or out of any perceived plot-hole or flaw in the films; and two, such perceived flaws are purely subjective, varying wildly from one person to another. My thinking is that it takes imagination to see a plot-hole; why not use those same faculties of imagination to devise an explanation?


Amen Vortigern----and regarding stuff like the Greedo/Han thing---a
thing that unlike 99&#37; of the other stuff is really "unexplainable"----here's
a suggestion in the face of that one (seemingly) unfortunate Lucas tweak: "live with it" ;)

[johnmiic]

Misinformation?----with respect, I know you gave yourself an "out" by acknowledging that its "entertainment", but I still can't buy the resentment and hostility from the purist STAR WARS fans with the redos---its only a movie---and if you ONLY like the old versions of the movies...well... then just watch those.

In other words...why waste your time picking apart the new edited/enhanced versions when you have the old ones readily available? (i.e. live & let live)

Well I am not getting too worked up about this so don't read this thinking I am whining or yelling at everyone. As you say if it's only a movie why defend the special editions? They are not original but revisionist. I don't think picking out the mistakes are subjective either. A mistake is a mistake. Anyone can recognize that story logic is compromised when previously it was not. Even before the advent of DVD the originals were re-released on special VHS 3 packs, ( SW, ESB & ROTJ), with the slogan 'available one last time." Lucas made his intent clear that he would phase out the original un-altered versions and replace them with special editions. If you didn't buy those or have not kept your old VHS's and a working VHS player you are out of luck. You won't find them at most video stores either as they have gone DVD. VHS is a dinosaur now. unless you shelled out money on the VHS's and kept them in good shape you can't watch the originals. Many people tossed their VHS's expecting good DVD quality transfers.

The original, unaltered SW films are available on the latest DVD releases as a sort of 2 pack. The originals included are only available in this 2-fer format and are only transfers of the versions done for laser-disc and not re-scanned negatives for superior DVD quality. There are no singular, high-quality, un-special editions on DVD in circulation as singular releases. Unless you fork over more cash for something you already owned you can't even see the laser-disc transfers. If you don't have the original you cannot enjoy it or even make that comparison.

Lucas said he wanted to restore lost footage that he felt should have been included in the original Star Wars and replace bad spfx with better quality spfx in certain places. This is not true. What is being done here is the films are being changed years after they are made and the changes continue to occur. There seems to be no end to the changes being made to these films. For example the Han/Jabba scene is restored using the creature Jabba Lucas intended instead of the Scottish actor from the original footage. Boba Fett is in the scene tho he was never in SW. Boba Fett was introduced in an animated short in the SW Holiday Special. Lucasfilm does not even acknowledge the existence of this made for tv bomb. It is a cheat to do this.

We don't need Boba Fett introduced in SW. We can accept him in ESB without knowledge of the cartoon. So why make the change? It is unecessary. How about the replacement of the Emperor in ESB? Dialogue is changed and as pointed out in this thread it makes no logical sense. Contradictions occur because the rule, there can be only 2 Sith, no more, no less, was never part of the original trilogy. Add it in to the other films and it creates glaring holes in story logic. Why should Vader seek to turn Luke to the Dark side if it means his own death? It plain bad story logic. So what we have here is a pattern developing where embarassing mistakes are covered up creating even more mistakes which are even more embarassing. Misinformation is put out and liberties are taken with the material when changes need not be made.

Now this is entertainment. Should we really be such sticklers. Maybe we should. Just because we have this sort of Choose Your Own Adventure version of Star Wars Films does not improve them at all. What was of a certain quality is now being dragged down to lower quality. Should we just let this go...? The answer is most certainly no.

[huedell]

As you say if it's only a movie why defend the special editions?

I have an answer for that I feel quite strongly about...

To me it makes more sense to say something is "good" ( see, I LIKE the SEs)
and to add that if you don't like that given thing ----then don't watch it--
--than to complain about "revisionist" tactics, which (again) you aren't forced to watch.

The fact that Lucas has been inaccurate about his business plans?
Well, I think the fanboys of the world have to accept that's the world
of business, or accept "reality" or whatever you wanna call it--
--certainly 30-somethings should know this by now
-----either way----the originals are/were available by hook or by crook at any time


Now this is entertainment. Should we really be such sticklers.

I don't believe so...
Not when your opinion doesn't change the fact that we ALL have we want to
watch at our fingertips.


Just because we have this sort of Choose Your Own Adventure version of Star
Wars Films does not improve them at all.

Well, (with respect) not only is that at the LEAST your "opinion"----it could be seen as
a "false statement" as its been proven that STAR WARS fans like myself do indeed
see the changes as "improvements"

[Vortigern99]

Regarding johnmiic's excoriation of the Emperor/Vader/Rule of Two/Sith apprentice scenario, it actually makes completely logical sense, once you take all the pieces out and examine them closely. Here it is broken down for simplicity's sake:

1. The Emperor wants to replace Vader with Luke (because Vader is a machine-man and not as powerful as Anakin once was)
2. Vader wants to replace the Emperor himself and rule the Galaxy, with Luke as his apprentice (Vader makes this offer to Luke in ESB in no uncertain terms)
3. Both Vader and the Emperor know the other's intentions, as these accord with the Rule of Two (one master, one apprentice)
4. Vader stops Luke from killing the Emperor in ROTJ because /Vader/ must be the one to do it, in order to take the Emperor's place as Sith Master
5. Luke does not turn to the dark side, foiling the two Sith's plans for knocking each other off
6. The Emperor falls back on Plan B: Kill Luke and keep the machine-man Vader as his apprentice
7. Vader has a moment of doubt, decides that he loves Luke, and Anakin (his good side) is reborn within him. This abrogates all Sithly contracts, as he proves by destroying the Emperor with no ulterior motive but saving his son.

[huedell]

Again, I thank you Vortigern (as I did del earlier) for having the patience
to do what I think is a waste of my time :)

Your Sith explanation makes pefect sense and aside from the (delicious)
idea that VADER must be the one to kill the Emperor to fufill his vision
of The Sith...well, I felt the exact same way. Nice articulation. Very.

[johnmiic]

Regarding johnmiic's excoriation of the Emperor/Vader/Rule of Two/Sith apprentice scenario, it actually makes completely logical sense, once you take all the pieces out and examine them closely. Here it is broken down for simplicity's sake:

1. The Emperor wants to replace Vader with Luke (because Vader is a machine-man and not as powerful as Anakin once was)
2. Vader wants to replace the Emperor himself and rule the Galaxy, with Luke as his apprentice (Vader makes this offer to Luke in ESB in no uncertain terms)
3. Both Vader and the Emperor know the other's intentions, as these accord with the Rule of Two (one master, one apprentice)
4. Vader stops Luke from killing the Emperor in ROTJ because /Vader/ must be the one to do it, in order to take the Emperor's place as Sith Master
5. Luke does not turn to the dark side, foiling the two Sith's plans for knocking each other off
6. The Emperor falls back on Plan B: Kill Luke and keep the machine-man Vader as his apprentice
7. Vader has a moment of doubt, decides that he loves Luke, and Anakin (his good side) is reborn within him. This abrogates all Sithly contracts, as he proves by destroying the Emperor with no ulterior motive but saving his son.

Again I am not slamming anyone here but it doesn't make complete and logical sense. The flaw in that argument is point #3. As RussG points out The Emperor tells/discusses with Vader, turning Luke to the Dark Side. That's pretty much like, for example, telling your employee to their face, we have to hire that young kid so I can replace you, and you're gonna help me do it, when they know replace = kill. There's no reason for Vader to serve the Emperor if he was hgoing to be thrown away like a used kleenex. It violates common sense just like horror films where dumb teenagers walk into obvious death traps and are killed. Also it's sloppy writing to have a gaff like that and expect people to work it out themselves after the film.

When Vader told Luke in ESB they could defeat the Emperor and take over themselves- why would anyone really believe what he said? Vader was not a trust-worthy character so I doubt the audience even thought he was telling the truth when he said he was Luke's father. It was the possibility of that statement which enthralled moviegoers until ROTJ came out; not the certainty of it.

When the films were still un-altered and the Emperor tells Luke in ROTJ, kill Vader, kill your own father, so you can take your place beside me as my apperentice. That was a revelation! A major plot-twist. All the while we assumed he would have Vader and Luke serving him. Now we see he's going to toss Vader. Vader didn't even see that coming in the un-altered versions of the films. The Emperor was not officially staing this Rule of Two in ROTJ. No one suspected or thought Vader would be dispensed with by the Emperor- ever-because the Rule of Two was not written into the films yet. The Rule of Two was stated in Episode 1 and produced noticable groans from the audience; not necessarily devoted or even rabid fan-boys but moviegoers in general. It was nearly the same groan heard when Ben reveals Leia was Lukes sister, after they had kissed each other at least 2x's before. We all knew full well Luke was in love with the Princess. This was Du Ex Macchina for who should the Princess choose as a husband: Luke or Han. It was an easy way out.

Every time Lucas makes a change he convolutes the storyline even more and you have to step back and analyze it all to see if it makes sense. Certainly good films are thought provoking. Star Wars used to be thought provoking. I thought after Attack of the Clones he had returned the mystique to the saga. there were so many un-answered questions after Episode 2. Star Wars has descended to a point where you have to keep looking it over to see if it all makes sense whenever a change is made.

[huedell]

Maybe Vortigern will address the flaws in your fault-finding there johnmiic

---I disagree with most of what you pointed out but don't have the patience
to justify each thing I disagree with as, like Vortigern mentioned earlier,
you could actually do that yourself if you were so inclined---

However, I will address not agreeing with the idea of Luke & Leia being siblings
as an "easy way out" for Leia's hookup with Han when actually it was just the
product of a great plot twist.

You may "groan" at the fact that Luke's sister is Leia when its already
said that Vader is Luke's father----but you have to remember that
the same 6 hr. story was originally meant to be told in about 2 hours
and some things benefit from the 6 hr. telling and some things suffer from that---
---i.e. The drama and buildup of Han vs. Luke for Leia's affections
was really that much better in a SIX hour telling when the audience is
"messed with" with a kiss etc. if Luke DIDN'T kiss Leia THAT would be a missed
opportunity for that buildup and inferior writing on Lucas' part
(or whoever is credited for the incestual scenarios) I think its a great aspect of the
STAR WARS story.

[jwyblejr]

The Leia being Luke's sister never bother me. You sit and think about it,it makes sense. There was another,who else would it be? Han,Lando,someone else? You pretty much knew it was Leia at the end Of Empire. How else would she have heard Luke calling out to her if she didn't have the Force?

[Vortigern99]

johnmiic, the logic of the thing is fully apparent only when you apply the Rule of Two as we now know it through the prequels. You are free to dismiss the idea if you like, based on your perception of audience groaning (which I must admit I missed in my 8 theatrical viewings of TPM, though they groaned aplenty at Jar Jar) or a lack of creative integrity, but I for one find it an intriguing sci-fi/fantasy concept. If you'll indulge my explication of the idea one last time, my hope is that you'll find a new angle on the material that you never saw before ... something that happens with me and STAR WARS almost every time I sit and contemplate some facet of it.


The Emperor tells/discusses with Vader, turning Luke to the Dark Side. That's pretty much like, for example, telling your employee to their face, we have to hire that young kid so I can replace you, and you're gonna help me do it, when they know replace = kill.

In both versions of the ESB scene with Vader and the Emperor, it is Vader --not the Emperor -- who suggests turning Luke. The Emperor hesitates for a moment (again in both versions) and agrees this is the way to go. If you imagine an unspoken undercurrent here -- that both men want to use Luke to replace the other -- it becomes plain that each is appeasing the other while proceeding with a plan to depose the other -- a plan each man must be aware of. They proceed with this mutual deception because they need each other; the Emperor needs Vader to do his bidding and marshall his forces, and Vader needs the Emperor to administer the political machinery of the government, which as a warrior Vader is not equipped to do.


There's no reason for Vader to serve the Emperor if he was going to be thrown away like a used kleenex.

Vader tells Luke in ROTJ: "I must obey my master." There is some powerful dark side compulsion, which we are not given to fully understand, driving Vader to do Palpatine's bidding. Moreover, since Vader's plan is to depose the Emperor, it only makes sense that he would continue to serve his master until the time is right to strike. Yet when not in the Emperor's direct sight, Vader plots with Luke to join together and overthrow the Emperor (the same offer Vader makes to Padme in ROTS). Vader is utterly sincere in this offer, as his previous offer to his wife (and the sheer passion of his vocal delivery) make plain. (BTW, as a 10-year old kid in 1980 I utterly believed Vader when he revealed himself as Luke's father, for two reasons: His vocal delivery, which was obviously sincere, and Luke searching his feelings and calling Vader "Father" when the Sith lord contacts him on the Falcon. Irvin Kershner, the film's director, has said that of all the people he's talked to about the movie, children below a certain age, about 9, always thought Vader was lying, but kids of a certain level of maturity, and most adults, knew Vader was telling the truth.)

So, while both Vader and the Emperor are aware of the others' plans, they continue on course with this secret agenda mostly unspoken. However, at one point the Emperor's plans are made clear, when he tells Luke: "Strike me down with all of your anger, and take your father's place at my side!"

So in the first place we have Vader making the offer for Luke to kill the Emperor, join Vader and rule the galaxy together; and in the second we have the Emperor insisting that Luke replace Vader and join him at his side. What other answer could there be that reconciles these two opposing agendas? This is the Rule of Two in perfect completion.

To conclude, when Luke strikes at the Emperor, Vader blocks the blow for a number of reasons: Because Luke is not ready to turn to the dark side (as the novelization states), and a single act of killing the Emperor would not turn him yet; because Vader must still appear to be doing his duty to protect the Emperor, while he awaits the proper moment to kill the Master himself; and, possibly (though this last element is only my theory) because Vader must kill the Emperor himself if he, and not Luke, is to become the Sith Master.

I invite anyone to disagree and continue in their opinion that the films are increasingly flawed and confused, a jumbled mess of incompetent writing, but having analyzed them in depth, researched their origins in myth and archetype, and read commentaries and interviews by the creators stretching back into my childhood, I can say with conviction that the original three movies' internal consistency utterly stands up to scrutiny. (I agree Leia's last-minute redo as Luke's sister is an obvious ploy at dovetailing the character arcs, but ultimately I think it works.)


Again I am not slamming anyone here but it doesn't make complete and logical sense. The flaw in that argument is point #3. As RussG points out The Emperor tells/discusses with Vader, turning Luke to the Dark Side. That's pretty much like, for example, telling your employee to their face, we have to hire that young kid so I can replace you, and you're gonna help me do it, when they know replace = kill. There's no reason for Vader to serve the Emperor if he was hgoing to be thrown away like a used kleenex. It violates common sense just like horror films where dumb teenagers walk into obvious death traps and are killed. Also it's sloppy writing to have a gaff like that and expect people to work it out themselves after the film.

When Vader told Luke in ESB they could defeat the Emperor and take over themselves- why would anyone really believe what he said? Vader was not a trust-worthy character so I doubt the audience even thought he was telling the truth when he said he was Luke's father. It was the possibility of that statement which enthralled moviegoers until ROTJ came out; not the certainty of it.

When the films were still un-altered and the Emperor tells Luke in ROTJ, kill Vader, kill your own father, so you can take your place beside me as my apperentice. That was a revelation! A major plot-twist. All the while we assumed he would have Vader and Luke serving him. Now we see he's going to toss Vader. Vader didn't even see that coming in the un-altered versions of the films. The Emperor was not officially staing this Rule of Two in ROTJ. No one suspected or thought Vader would be dispensed with by the Emperor- ever-because the Rule of Two was not written into the films yet. The Rule of Two was stated in Episode 1 and produced noticable groans from the audience; not necessarily devoted or even rabid fan-boys but moviegoers in general. It was nearly the same groan heard when Ben reveals Leia was Lukes sister, after they had kissed each other at least 2x's before. We all knew full well Luke was in love with the Princess. This was Du Ex Macchina for who should the Princess choose as a husband: Luke or Han. It was an easy way out.

Every time Lucas makes a change he convolutes the storyline even more and you have to step back and analyze it all to see if it makes sense. Certainly good films are thought provoking. Star Wars used to be thought provoking. I thought after Attack of the Clones he had returned the mystique to the saga. there were so many un-answered questions after Episode 2. Star Wars has descended to a point where you have to keep looking it over to see if it all makes sense whenever a change is made.

[starsky]

wow!! :juggleyes_y: i'm impressed with the analysis!! great job guys and to think all this discussion started with hec askin why lucas didnt have ewan/obi wan in the pic with young anakin. i'm going to have to check out the dvds again!

[DocDrako]

I just wanted to say that I wasn't trying to slam Star Wars when I made my comments. I'm a huge fan and have been since 1977. There was a time when I would get very angry if anyone said anything bad about Star Wars. But as I've gotten older, and Star Wars has always been a part of my life, it has become almost like a friend. I know that sounds odd, but what I mean is that I poke fun at Star Wars, and sometimes make fun of it or mock it because I really do love it. Much like someone might poke fun at a friend. Just because you give a friend a hard time doesn't mean that you don't like them. Only Star Wars is a movie franchise and not a real person. (I'm not that far gone yet :crazy: )

I love all of the movies, all versions to some extent, the original trilogy more than the prequels, and the original versions more than the special editions. But the fact is, I love Star Wars in all it's forms. Why else would I force myself to rewatch the Holiday Special time and again in an attempt to learn to like it? By the way, I still can't watch it all at once, but I try.

I realize that Leia really didn't "always know" that Luke was her brother. It was the dialogue that I was making fun of. I find fault with stuff in Star Wars, but I really do love it. I'm in the pro-Star Wars camp. There might be some flaws, but over all, I think the Star Wars series is top notch. Great points on all the nitpicking too, everyone. Great explanations. And that comment is guaranteed 100% sarcasm free!

:2thumbsup:

But why did Lucas have to establish that Yoda knew Chewbacca?

:grin:

[Mikey]

One thing about the special edition Jedi I really hate.....

Why did Lucas change the Ewok song ?

I'm not in love with the song, but seeing Jedi so many times after all these years, I always associate that song with THE END of the saga.
It's a happy bye-bye to the movie Series.

I wish he would have left it alone.

[Bo8a_Fett]

Yub Yub

[Bizarro Amy]

One thing about the special edition Jedi I really hate.....

Why did Lucas change the Ewok song ?

I'm not in love with the song, but seeing Jedi so many times after all these years, I always associate that song with THE END of the saga.
It's a happy bye-bye to the movie Series.

I wish he would have left it alone.

Ok, that's another thing I agree with. Why couldn't YubNub be left alone? I used SW music in my wedding and had to download it and burn a cd, because it's not available on a soundtrack anymore. Thanks for reminding me Mike.

[samurainoir]

Another thing I didn't like is Yoda's change in only 30 years.

The dude was like 900 years old or something.

I don't think a measly 30 years would've changed him much.

He also turned from a benevolent but serious dude, to a jokster, all in a measly 30 years, we are talking about a very old dude here.

Here I go again...

:14:

I think Yoda was allowed to demo his sense of humour on occasion, for example when teaching younglings by declaring "Lost a Planet Obi Wan has" (or whatever, I'm paraphrasing).

Keep in mind within that span of 30 years, everything he's known in his hundreds of years of Jedi training has been wiped away by Palpatine and Vader.

[samurainoir]

I think the ideal solution (if Lucas had to mess with it once again), would have been to put Christianson in old age make-up for the Ghost scene.

Although I guess they would have also had to put him in make-up underneath the mask of Vader when Luke pulled off the helmet.

[Hector]

wow!! :juggleyes_y: i'm impressed with the analysis!! great job guys and to think all this discussion started with hec askin why lucas didnt have ewan/obi wan in the pic with young anakin. i'm going to have to check out the dvds again!

I had a feeling this was gonna happen...the Force is strong in here.

:smiley1:


Anyway, you guys can crucify me if you wish, I will not retaliate, I promise.

:biggrin:

I LOVE the original trilogy...but...

The new trilogy can go straight down the toilet.

I'm sorry, I hate the new Trilogy with a passion...the ONLY cool characters are Darth Maul, and to a lesser extent, Qui Gon Jinn. Good grief, I don't know who I hated more, Jar Jar, that kid who played young Anakin, or Natalie Portman, good grief. Her acting, especially in The Phatom Menace, was atrocious (I can sort of forgive the kid, he's just a kid, but Portman is supposed to be this quality actress)...argh.

[Airdave817]

A couple years ago, I think it was after Christensen was cast as Anakin, my wife got me the Trilogy box set. We scream at the screen every time we see him with Alec Guiness. I've convinced my wife that we desperately need to get the individual, unaltered versions.

I like some of the added footage. I know that it adds absolutely nothing to the story but ambiance and color. It might have been cool to see in the original version. Is it a big deal that Han Solo meets with Jabba before the Falcon takes off from Mos Eisley? Maybe. Is it incredibly dopey that you have a young Anakin and an old Obi-Wan Kenobi? YES!!!

I would have preferred one or the other. Both of them young or old. No disrespect to Alec Guiness, but he appeared earlier in Jedi, and pretty much owned the role. I saw Phantom Mence and decided to wait until all three in that Trilogy get collected to see the other two. Three words - Jar Jar Binks. And killing Darth Maul? He was an interesting character

Anyway, that's just my half-cent.

[Dave Mc]

Strike me down with all of your anger, and take your father's place at my side!


If you misquote to prove your point of view, does it negate your point of view? :biggrin: (take it easy, just joking with you a bit)

The actual quotes are from two different sentences, the first

"Good. I can feel your anger. I am
defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me
down with all your hatred, and your journey
towards the dark side will be complete."

and later after Luke kicks Vader's behind....

"Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now,
fulfill your destiny and take your father's
place at my side!"

That said, personally I think the rule of twos is horse pucky. It was never mentioned in the original trilogy and I think Lucas went to write the newer movies and thought "crap, if I have a bunch of Sith running around what happens to them all between the two sets of movies? Why aren't they mentioned in the Original Trilogy? Ooops! Better write something to cover up that mistake!

I seriously don't think there was any grand design. I think Lucas made much of it up as he went along. I don't think Leia was Luke's sister when the first movie came out, I don't think there was a rule of twos plan in place, and any history was made up as it was needed, and that goes right up to the point they made Sith.

I love this universe as much as any, but let's face facts, Young Lucas barely got the first movie made. It wasn't episode 4 in it's first release, it was Star Wars, a single story that probably was supposed to end when the first Death Star blew, but was left open just a bit for more just in case. That's all that was planned besides perhaps some rough idea of some background, but no more than any other movie.

Now, one thing I will give Lucas major credit for is he had the insight to create CHARACTERS. In a age were most Sci-Fi was focused on the gadgets and the effects, Lucas let good characters guide his project. Major props to him for not forgetting that no matter where and when a story is set, the characters make the movie.

[huedell]

Some of what you said rings true (or remotely true) Dave
but this....

I love this universe as much as any, but let's face facts, Young Lucas barely got
the first movie made. It wasn't episode 4 in it's first release, it was Star Wars, a single
story that probably was supposed to end when the first Death Star blew, but was left
open just a bit for more just in case. That's all that was planned besides perhaps some
rough idea of some background, but no more than any other movie.


...is undeniably wrong. Lucas had known that there were many stories to tell
regarding STAR WARS. He also knew that VADERS backstory would be a
worthwhile story in and of itself----BUT---not as interesting and
entertaining as Luke's story of ressurecting the JEDI----

When it came time to actually make "A NEW HOPE" Lucas realized that
he couldn't tell Luke's story all within Episode "4" (possibly titled episode "2" at
that moment---episode "1" being DARTH's BACKSTORY)

So knowing LUKE's story would have to be more than one movie----
he cut it up into THREE seperate movies. That's probably the point where
an exact "number" was assigned to A NEW HOPE----Lucas thinking:
"Well, if LUKE's story is THREE episodes long...DARTH's story is probably
THREE episodes long, regardless of if I get around to making them anyways"

When Lucas handed in STAR WARS, EPISODE IV: A NEW HOPE to 20CFOX,
the studios balked at the name saying that it was too confusing....while
Lucas was reluctant to change the name (a name which he chose to evoke
the vibe of his childhood experience at matinees), he DID end up changing
the name to the snappier and more concise: "STAR WARS" because...well...the studio said so.

YES, Dave many plot points were worked out during filming of the films
(like I said above---some things you mentioned in your post ring true)-
--but I can tell you that what I've just said here about ESB and ROTJ
already story-plotted as ACT TWO and ACT THREE of "LUKE'S STORY"
and knowing that DARTH'S BACKSTORY would constitute Eps. 1-3
is the LEAST of the truth regarding Lucas' masterplan for the SW story arc(s)
at that time (1976)--
-and there's more I could say too...but I'm trying to cut this post short.

[huedell]

I couldn't resist another post ;)


I seriously don't think there was any grand design. I think Lucas made much of it
up as he went along. I don't think Leia was Luke's sister when the first movie came out...

Lucas had to be ambivalent about that. Lucas was always fearful that he'd have to
"close shop" and never have the money to finish LUKES STORY onscreen in the slightest-
--SO he HAD to play up the romantic battle for LEIA---why? Because it LOOKED good on
film....especially when Lucas wasn't living or dying by if they were siblings anyway.

And...you know what? It worked to his advantage because it ADDED TO THE FILM(S)

Y'know...Lucas wasn't even POSITIVE that he was going to make DARTH Luke's dad--
-and he wasn't POSITIVE that Vader was going to look so feeble when he was "unmasked"
in ROTJ (after shown as this monsterously intimidating villain for 3 films)

Looking back---I think those are all no-brainer decisions---but Lucas has always been
VERY COMMERCIAL with his decision making regarding plot twists, fearing things
too "strange" may alienate many viewers.

But believe me Dave, even though things weren't "set in stone"---they were
already being considered by Lucas----including the "RULE OF TWOS"

D'ja think that the same question that you brought up...

crap, if I have a bunch of Sith running around what happens to them all between the two sets of movies? Why aren't they mentioned in the Original Trilogy?
Ooops! Better write something to cover up that mistake!

...wasn't considered by Lucas MUCH earlier as he was writing the ORIGINAL trilogy
back in the 70s/80s???

It HAD to have been...

...and I'm sure he thought to himself after his initial rush of glee back in the late 70s
had subsided (and he ditched the idea he had of making FOUR trilogies):
"Thank god I'm only gonna do THREE 2hr. movies total instead of TWELVE
telling Luke's story--and I won't have to show anything else about the SITH than
the shallow exchanges between the EMPEROR and VADER and LUKE in ESB and ROTJ."

If he ONLY knew back then that he'd make THREE more movies dealing more directly
with the Sith....

(Heck, it probably woulda really slowed down the ORIGINAL trilogy with the
same kinda funky exposition that mired down the new trilogy! Count yer lucky
death stars!)

[Vortigern99]

The origins of STAR WARS are open for discussion. Lucas asserts one position now, and asserted a different one thierty years ago. The documentary evidence we have (all versions and drafts of the script for the original film) corroborate Lucas' earlier stance rather than his later, making his recent statements rather suspect.

Overall, I agree with Dave Mc's assertion that "there was no grand design". Lucas made it up as he went along. But so what? Tolkien made it up as he went along, and went back to revise sections of the Hobbit (the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter) to make Lord of the Rings more cohesive. That doesn't mean it isn't brilliant or entertaining or moving or effective or valid. LOTR is all those things, IMO, and so is STAR WARS.

BTW, Dave: Thanks for your correction of my quoting the Emperor's sh**-talk. For the record, I was paraphrasing. :wink_y:

[Dave Mc]

There is no documentation that can prove to me Lucas had any plans or even any hopes of making more than one film from the start. Unless I saw dated scripts or detailed outlines that were before the original film release, I wont believe it.

After SW came out and became so big, I'm sure Lucas started dreaming it all up, and of course stated "yeah, this was my plan all along", but in 1976 to even dream that you could make a sci-fi movie trilogy was almost out of the question. The only series in that era to do that would be POTA's. Sequals just weren't the possiblity they are now. For Lucas to even consider the possiblity would have been insanity. All that crap you read now about Lucas turning in the original script titles Episode 4, I believe to be Lucas rewriting history. Sure, he may have started rewriting it right after the first release of SW, but it's re-written, you can bet on it.

That's just my take. I agree with Vortigern, so what that he made it up as he went along? That doesn't bother me at all. All creative people do that. Dive in and let the project take you were it will. I don't care much for the re-writing of history, of the changing of the original films (or the orignal book in the case of the Hobbit) to make the later stuff jive, but I have no problem with making it up as you go along. My point is, during this discussion of "what was planned" was to point out that I believe the answer to be "not much".

Vortigern proves my point. What Lucas once said doesn't jive with what he now says. Add that to the fact that he does indeed re-write history (just watch the new versions of the films) and it makes everything he's said about how things happened after the first film release suspect to serious doubt.

I'm not anti-Lucas. He made a brillian universe with brilliant characters, my all time favorite as a matter of fact. He muscled it through and worked his tail off to make it happen. Major kudos and props. I do think the history of how it all happened and what the intent was from the beginning has been (just like the original movies) altered from what actually happened, to what he wishes would have happened, to what makes a better story, and he's convinced himself that's the way it happened all along.

[huedell]

Dave, with all respect----you're being insanely stubborn.

Lucas flat-out lying about all I've just said is insane....don't ya think
his friends---SOMEONE--- would've called him on ALL this---and he woulda felt
a bit ashamed for being such a bald-faced liar?

YODA was CREATED because by lengthening the movies (which all were
originally supposed to be in one TWO HOUR MOVIE about LUKE's story
a story that you say didn't exist in full), OBI got killed off and a new live
"Jedi trainer" had to be brought in. That's a BIG part of SW lore that everyone
working on the films knew. (Its also the reason there were TWO DEATH STARS
in the same trilogy----LUKES STORY had to end with the destruction of a
DEATH STAR---and LUCAS felt NEW HOPE was missing a great "space station
blowing up" ending---so he put it in NEW HOPE and made a different
but simillar ending for ROTJ)

I'm being too gracious here though with all this "extra" explanation.

All you need know is REGARDLESS of all that I already said above:
Mark Hamill-- in live interview clips I saw--- has INDEED corroborated the prepping
of multiple sequels as far back as 1976
(On the big doc included with the DVDs Mark mentions Lucas going on and on
during the filming of A NEW HOPE about TWELVE stories he had planned to film)

...and I KNOW that 20th Century exec(s) coraborrated what I said above on that
bonus DVD doc because an exec comments on the "IV" working title---admittedly
it coulda been an FX guy from back then (I haven't seen the DVD in a while)---but regardless...

So, believe what I said----or you can believe that I ---AND Lucas AND Hamill
AND 20th Century Fox have some kind of conspiracy to make George appear to
have had a BIT more forethought than YOU want to give him credit for.
Geesh. :)

You can BET that George liked the idea of STAR WARS being a serial-type series
akin to FLASH GORDON (which he opted for the rights to by the way)---but with
FULL LENGTH movies instead of short serial cliffhanger bits.

You can BET that George saw the task as daunting and wanted to stop after
three of the episodes (the ones he thought most commercially viable) were
finished.

And I, personally, think that IF George COULD have fit ALL of LUKE's story
into one 2 hr. film---he would've and called it EPISODE TWO---and maybe
considered doing an "EPISODE ONE" telling VADERs backstory at some point

Instead the movies became longer ---and split up into two trilogies
for smart storytelling reasons

Lucas really went out of his way to produce the NEW trilogy---even tho'
he knew it would be rife with story challenges---probably partly because
he felt it was artistically "unfinished business" and also because he
thought that potentially he could make another billion dollars--- or so :)

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

I remember that Lucas said the first film was actually the fourth; way back when. (Well before Empire.) I also remember him saying that he started with the fourth 'cos the first three were pretty boring. "Like a history lesson" was the line.

And, holey smokes; he was RIGHT! I remember hearing about Vader's origin way before Empire too.... and it played out just like it was explained. Same with the Clone Wars... more or less.

So I have no doubt that Lucas had thought most of it up way before hand. But just 'cos you've come up with the major stuff doesn't mean the fiddly bits have been done too. The Luke/Leia thing I suspect was an add on. (Otherwise the first film has some REALLY creepy parts...) Vader as Luke's dad? Might not have been. I know Han was pretty much added after Fox rejected the original script. (It involved a lot of Wookies, and kinda sounded like the major.... er... "story" from the Christmas Special.)

Did he expect a second film? Probably not. But that doesn't mean he didin't write the possibility into the first. His galaxy is a REAL big place, and there were a lot of loose ends after the first film. I don't remember the "episode 4" thing when I first saw the film; but I DO remember it when Star Wars came back to theaters the next year. I suspect Fox wanted a sequel after the first one hit; and Lucas was ready. For the most part. Some polish, a few adjustments and voiola!

Don C.

[huedell]

Dave wrote:

Vortigern proves my point. What Lucas once said doesn't jive with what he now says.
Add that to the fact that he does indeed re-write history (just watch the new versions of the films)
and it makes everything he's said about how things happened after the first film release suspect to serious doubt.


Vortigern proves what point exactly? Because Lucas's statements
within a twenty year span don't match up exactly---then EVERY thing Lucas
says is a 100&#37; lie?

Wow---talk about "blanket statements" covered with vague accusations
regarding so-called "crimes" that many would merely call "artistic liscence"--

-not to mention a blending of "fantasy" with "reality" you make here-
--Lemme get this straight---Lucas rewrites SW history---so that proves
he rewrites REAL history and is automatically guilty of huge fabrications.
Um...okay. Good thing you're not a judge at the "Lucas trials"---he'd
never make it outta prison!

Don wrote:

Did he expect a second film? Probably not.

Regardless of how you define "expect" Lucas really WANTED a 2nd film---
and if he couldn't do it --he was going to write books---anything
chronicling Luke's adventures, etc.

Lucas worked so hard on developing LUKE'S STORY and the universe Luke
inhabited that he wasn't going to go down that easy...

The fact that NEW HOPE absolutely throttled the movie biz with its success
gave Lucas the opportunity to really let loose----and Lucas didn't know
EXACTLY what to do in the heat of that unanticipated moment of success
with the FREEDOM to handle his beloved space-opera with a better grip
than ever could be imagined...he didn't know EXACTLY...

But he DID decide to...
1) ...replace OBI WAN with a new teacher (YODA) as OBI was only killed off
in the first movie as a more intense plot device--- and a ghost would
be an impractical teacher

2) ...finally take the plunge and make VADER LUKE's father, as now LUCAS
was certain that this would occur as a most intense plot device in a movie
seen by millions----he had considered it earlier and left it open---the success
of NEW HOPE "sealed the deal"

3) ...finally take the plunge and make LEIA LUKE's sister, as now LUCAS
was certain that this would occur as a most intense plot device in a movie
seen by millions----he had considered it earlier and left it open---the success
of NEW HOPE "sealed the deal" and the "sister" aspect was referred to
(as you must know) in that departure from Dagobah scene. When YODA said:
"There is another."---he wunt talkin' about LOBOT! ;)


The Luke/Leia thing...the first film has some REALLY creepy parts...

You say this like incest (or at least the implications of it) isn't a popular theme in
mythology and storytelling throughout time. I stand by the idea that the
"incest" aspect of STAR WARS is far from creepy---its just great story-telling
(You want creepy---watch Joakim and his sister in GLADIATOR!-ha)

4)....and the most IMORTANT decision Lucas made after the success of STAR WARS
in 1977 was that he decided to finance the entire (NEXT) movie(s) himself so that he
could retain the most control over the franchise---and so he could
rake in the most MONEY too :)

Don wrote:

I suspect Fox wanted a sequel after the first one hit...

Yeah---they wanted a sequel SO BADLY that when they found out Lucas was making ESB
all by himself, they gladly got involved JUST to distribute the film---and by the end of filming,
when Lucas was few million short of being able to complete ESB, and the banks wouldn't help him,
FOX bent over BACKWARDS by not only lending Lucas the last bit of the money, but also doing that
with no strings attached, allowing Lucas the same freedoms he had BEFORE borrowing the money
---which they did in fear that Lucas was going to run to another distributor to put out ESB.

"Lucas was ready with a sequel?" you say?

You BET he was...

...that and a few OTHER things!

;)

Oh...and regarding....

His galaxy is a REAL big place, and there were a lot of loose ends after the first film.

You're missing the POINT with this. The "loose ends" as you termed them were, in fact,
the ENTIRE ending to LUKE'S STORY which was already plotted---i.e. the ressurection
of the JEDI ---a plot which was sidetracked (and essentially cut off) by the last minute
addition of the FIRST DEATH STAR BATTLE which originally wasn't a part of the "LUKE" story
until the very end---an end where Vader also kills his master to save his son (also already written). ;)

Jeez----didn't you guys ever go to Sunday School?

I mean, read about STAR WARS history? ;)

[The Bat]

the reason that anakin was changed is because lucas felt that Anakin 'died' when he changed to the evil side so his ghost should look like just before he 'died', if you know what I mean.
stupid if you ask me.


I agree! Obi Wan said that "on the Day he became Darth Vader...the good Man He knew as Anakin Skywalker died".

[Dave Mc]

What I said was Lucas has a history of rewriting history so everything his says is SUSPECT.

I personally don't believe most of what he says, but that's just me. You can believe what you like. This is just a fanboy debate over a fake movie universe that means nothing. It's all in fun and you're getting way too worked up over it. If you can't chat about this stuff without getting in a tither, then you need to find a woman, a man, a dog, or whatever to care about and get this stuff put in perspective.

[ctc]

>Lucas worked so hard on developing LUKE'S STORY and the universe Luke
inhabited that he wasn't going to go down that easy...

I see it as Lucas coming up with one helluv'a back story; and then really wanting to do something with it. It's happened before. Nuthin' wrong with that... I kinda wish MORE folks put this much thought into what they do. ("No; they have warp travel, but use chemical ballistic weapons...!")

>You say this like incest (or at least the implications of it) isn't a popular theme in mythology and storytelling throughout time.

I'm not saying it's not a popular or viable theme; but it IS creepy.

"There once was a man named Oedipus Rex, you may have heard of his odd complex.
His name appears in Freud's index, 'cos he LOVED his mother..."

>The "loose ends" as you termed them were, in fact, the ENTIRE ending to LUKE'S STORY which was already plotted---i.e. the ressurection of the JEDI ---a plot which was sidetracked (and essentially cut off) by the last minute
addition of the FIRST DEATH STAR BATTLE which originally wasn't a part of the "LUKE" story until the very end---an end where Vader also kills his master to save his son (also already written). ;)

I could see that. A lot of times once you start gettin' down to the nuts and bolts of a story you end up changing things; sometimes for story reasons, sometimes due to other pressures.

Don C.

[johnmiic]

I highly recommend this book:
The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film by J.W. Rinzler

In it you will discover just how loosely planned Star Wars really was.

For instance:

It might surprise you to find the death of Ben Kenobi in film 1, ( aka, Epsiode 4 – A New Hope), was not originally part of the plan. Alec Guiness at first was so upset he was considering walking off the picture. This was not part of the original shooting script.

Lucas also screened Star Wars for his filmmaking friends so they could find holes in the film and point them out to him. Among them: Steven Spielberg and Brian De Palma. It’s is noted De Palma was merciless in his criticism of Star Wars and really let Lucas have it. Their opinions were not for public consumption but soley for Lucas.

All through the book FOX was really squirming to cut costs or even stop the picture from being made after they green-lighted it. They had fear it would be a tremendous failure and perhaps bankrupt the company even tho consultants said they would likely make a fortune off this film. At nearly every stage it seemed this film would not get made. Very little is said on the subject of sequels. Maybe after the success of SW sequels would be talked about but beforehand it was seriously in doubt.

[Mikey]

There's no way Lucas planned in advance (pre-Star Wars) Luke and Leia were brother and sister-- and Darth was Luke's father.
Lucas just made that stuff up as he went along--- as he did with the new movies--- like making Stormtroopers clones based on BoBa's father.

Boba was NOTHING until the geek fans fell in love with him in the late 80's (why, I have no idea)
Lucas used the new Star Wars DARLING to base the new stories on.

Aint nobody gunna convince me it's not true.

[johnmiic]

There's no way Lucas planned in advance (pre-Star Wars) Luke and Leia were brother and sister-- and Darth was Luke's father.
Lucas just made that stuff up as he went along--- as he did with the new movies--- like making Stormtroopers clones based on BoBa's father.

Boba was NOTHING until the geek fans fell in love with him in the late 80's (why, I have no idea)
Lucas used the new Star Wars DARLING to base the new stories on.

Aint nobody gunna convince me it's not true.

Mike, I have to also mention that:

1. The script for ESB was originally written by Sci-Fi author Leigh Brackett who passed away during pre-production on ESB and

2. The final/shooting,(?), scripts for ESB & ROTJ were written by Lawrence Kasdan.

We have to assume most of what made it into these films were added by these 2 writers. Vortigern99 might know a heck of a lot more on this subject and could possibly shed some light. I do recall reading parts of the early script in Fantastic Films magazine in 1980 and an interesting difference is Chewie, I think, was kidnapped in Leigh's version but when you get to Larry's script it was changed to Han being kidnapped. A much improved plot thread and makes for a tremendous cliff-hanger.

[Brue]

OK i read the first 4 pages of this thread. Had to stop there. Though there are many slightly plausible excuses for the garbage that Lucas presented (beginning with Return of the Jedi - giong to the prequels and culminating with the rereleases) none make up for the fact that it is garbage. The books are certainly not something I would defend the films with - that is like spreading spoiled mayo on moldy bread.

I have a DVD copy of the laser disc for Star Wars (note no episode number), I have VHS Special Editions of Empire because they doesn't offend me and the cleaned up video and audio are nice. I also have the SE Return because I frankly don't care about that movie anyway.

I have Ep 1 and 2 on VHS that I bought on sale and watched once - after remembering how bad thaey are (continuity issues aside) I have tried to sell the for a Buck apiece. I'll probably take them to good will.

Other thatn Continuity issues Ep 3 was entertaining but I have no need to own it.

The books - The first Zahn trilogy was great. There were a couple other passable tomes and the rest are utter trash.

Comics - Marvels original series was great. Dark Empire Great. The rest is disposable.

The Holiday Special is better than the prequels and most of the novels - and I don't need to convince anyone that the Special was bad.

If lucas needs some good material he should contact the fans that made TROOPS!

[jds1911a1]

[QUOTE=del;76284]>>

.

>>"stormtroopers are clones" ok if' that's true how come no one notices when Luke and han talk they don't have the same voice as all the other stormtroopers - which when you watch the film It sure sounds like they all have the same voice to me.<<
Clones troopers were the first step in the evolution toward stormtroopers. Some of the troopers during the time of the original trilogy may have been clones, but not necessarily clones of Jango Fett. The Jango clones had been aged artificially to have them ready in time. So they also got old much faster than humans. By the time the original trilogy happened, there were very few, if any, left other than Boba Fett(and the main reason he survived as long as he did was because he had the money for doctors to prolong his life). A lot of that kind of thing is covered in some of the recent novels. I think the samples of Jango's DNA were actually lost or destroyed on Kamino. The Empire made clones of various individuals who were then trained as stormtroopers. Some of the troops actually consisted of recruits, normal humans who joined the Imperial ranks.
The stormtroopers did not all have the same voice. While all of the clones were CG and voiced by Jango Fett, stormtroopers were played by multiple actors. They didn't have excessive dialogue, and the fact that they were speaking through helmets may account for them sounding somewhat alike.

>> Also as a Boba Fett fan Jeremy Bullock's voice is removed from the DVD versions and replaces with Temoa Morrison (Jango Fett/Clones). A real disservice to Bulloch.<<
It does kind of suck that you no longer hear Jeremy Bullock's voice in the new DVD releases, but I can understand why they did that. Boba was a clone of Jango, so upon maturation, he would have the same voice.

QUOTE]

I have not read a star wars novel since shadows of the empire. I base my clone as stormtrooper statement on the toy lines released by hasbro since ROTS where they have unmaksed Biker scouts and stormtroopers with jango fett faces. Since every toy has to pass lucasfilm muster that makes them part of the cannon. So at least some population of stormtroopers are clones of the JANGO DNA. If the novels have explained other sources for clones or that all troopers are not clones (which is what we all surmised with the original trilogy came out) I stand corrected.

Since Ep 4 occurs a mere 18-22 years after ROTS (I beleive Mark Hammil was 20 and by plot alone Luke is still a late teenager ) Boba Fett isn't all that old (maybe 40-50) in empire since he was an exact clone of Jango and was a boy in ep 2. As for his voice while they would have the same vocal chords any accents are driven by where you live/grow up so in the 20-25 years he wanders space before empire he would most likely have a completly different accent. Also damage to the vocal chords from combat would futher explain differneces in their voices. I find Bulloch's voice more menacing.

[huedell]

Dave wrote:

What I said was Lucas has a history of rewriting history so everything his says is SUSPECT.


Well, when I came back with the facts, you still negated them.
What else am I supposed to think except that you have "selective"
acceptance of facts? This kind of thinking makes everything potentially
a lie. Anyone can go around pointing fingers and saying--"this is a lie"-
--"that is a lie"--
-and while you can SAY "the world isn't round"---good luck proving it.


There's no way Lucas planned in advance (pre-Star Wars) Luke and Leia were brother and sister-- and Darth was Luke's father.
Lucas just made that stuff up as he went along--- as he did with the new movies--- like making Stormtroopers clones based on BoBa's father.

Boba was NOTHING until the geek fans fell in love with him in the late 80's (why, I have no idea)
Lucas used the new Star Wars DARLING to base the new stories on.

Aint nobody gunna convince me it's not true.

Oh well... ain't YOU special Mike?

Well, you know what? I ain't gunna belive the SKY IS BLUE
and no one's gunna tell me different. :)

Mike, you and Dave are not only insanely stubborn----you're actually just
ignorant...towards me in particular.

This isn't an issue of bagging on LUCAS anymore----its bagging on ME--
--because you're not believing straight-out FACTS that I am taking the time
to communicate to you. (I realize now after all this typing out some of
what I've learned over the years----my effort isn't being appreciated---its
instead being cast aside)

You and Dave are also are, quite frankly, aiding in spreading
"misinformation" on this thread and "rewriting history" by acting as such.

Bravo guys...you are now what you hate.

And Dave, as far as not getting worked up and "finding a woman" or a dog
or whatever--yeah, yeah, keep telling yourself that as you post on a
message board too. See, like you, I'm just here for the discussion.
This isn't a matter of getting "too worked up" or not---it a matter of some
stubborn posters on a toy message board not listening to facts. I thought
this was gonna be a fun debate and/or dissection that revealed TRUTH.
You guys would rather say: "well, I don't believe you" even though multiple
interviews rergarding the making of the films as well as storytelling logic
have proved differently and corroborate these simple things I've
spoke about.

Funny thing is---the stuff I'm talking about here---the stuff we're debating
about--- is certainly miniscule in the scope of how SW was created
----as there was MUCH stuff added as the films went along which I
DO know about and of course would be happy to admit to and discuss
(some of which we already have).

Its the stuff that was obviously planned beforehand that is coming into
question---and why stuff so OBVIOUSLY planned beforehand is
being rejected----well, I can only guess why---

Maybe its that Lucas has urinated in a few STAR WARS fans (here at MM)
Cheerios over the years, and they are letting it out in this fashion?

Hmmm....

[jds1911a1]

Dave wrote:


Jeez----didn't you guys ever go to Sunday School?

I mean, read about STAR WARS history? ;)

Thanks for the Raiders of the Lost Ark reference

[huedell]

I highly recommend this book:
The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film by J.W. Rinzler

In it you will discover just how loosely planned Star Wars really was.

For instance:

It might surprise you to find the death of Ben Kenobi in film 1, ( aka, Epsiode 4 – A New Hope), was not originally part of the plan. Alec Guiness at first was so upset he was considering walking off the picture. This was not part of the original shooting script.

Lucas also screened Star Wars for his filmmaking friends so they could find holes in the film and point them out to him. Among them: Steven Spielberg and Brian De Palma. It’s is noted De Palma was merciless in his criticism of Star Wars and really let Lucas have it. Their opinions were not for public consumption but soley for Lucas.

All through the book FOX was really squirming to cut costs or even stop the picture from being made after they green-lighted it. They had fear it would be a tremendous failure and perhaps bankrupt the company even tho consultants said they would likely make a fortune off this film. At nearly every stage it seemed this film would not get made. Very little is said on the subject of sequels. Maybe after the success of SW sequels would be talked about but beforehand it was seriously in doubt.

With respect john----and I'm only saying this because this is "internet
communication" and I'm not sure if you're getting my points in this thread
because of that...I hope you realize that everything you just posted there
about the "loose planning" of STAR WARS (NEW HOPE) jives with
everything I've been saying about NEW HOPE being a product of
having to cut the original movie based on LUKE'S STORY into THREE parts.

And, yes, I agree that all LUCAS' considered ideas for sequels hinged on
the success of the first STAR WARS movie

What I don't think many of the posters here are getting is---that a lot
of what actually happened IN the first movie was CHANGED for
the same reason-----Lucas wanted to do certain things a certain way
to work within one movie because he was SO fearful this would be
the FIRST & LAST Star Wars movie ever

As far as the outside writers coming in for ESB and ROTJ adding things--
-well, yeah sure they probably saved Lucas' butt with their great
script writing, but to suggest that THEY came up with the idea
of VADER being LUKE's father and LEIA his sister is exactly what's
wrong with this thread.

Are you kidding me? Lucas may be a poor dialogue writer and
a poor director...but, believe me as far as piecing together some very
impressive plot points (even if he had to bug his friends for feedback--
-so what), well, he's quite passable indeed.

[huedell]

Thanks for the Raiders of the Lost Ark reference

Hee-hee---I try my best! :wink_y:

[Dave Mc]

Well, when I came back with the facts, you still negated them.


Of course I negated them, you're wrong, what else am I supposed to do? :biggrin:


What else am I supposed to think except that you have "selective" acceptance of facts?

Possible. Hard to tell for sure. When you present some real facts, I guess we can test that then.



This kind of thinking makes everything potentially a lie.

Yay! You're starting to get it! Everything is POTENTIALLY a lie.


Oh well... ain't YOU special Mike?
Well, you know what? I ain't gunna belive the SKY IS BLUE
and no one's gunna tell me different. :)

And well you shouldn't. The sky isn't blue, it just appears that way. :biggrin:



Mike, you and Dave are not only insanely stubborn----you're actually just
ignorant...towards me in particular.

I was just stating my personal thoughts and opinions on the subject in a goofy little fanboy debate. That's it. I don't NEED to convince you of my opinion, and I don't care in the least if you agree or not. That's not ignorant, that's apathy. You however can not let it go, no matter the topic, no matter the circumstance, until you convince the other side of your argument. We've seen this time and time again like a bad TV show rerun. These are not wars of opinion that must be won, we're just BSing. Hence my comments. Do what you have to do, but get over your need to be right, to "win".

As far as being ignorant "towards you in particular"...

http://www.therebelyell.org/images/ignorant.jpg


This isn't an issue of bagging on LUCAS anymore----its bagging on ME-- (I realize now after all this typing out some of
what I've learned over the years----my effort isn't being appreciated---its
instead being cast aside)

Seriously, I don't care enough to take the time to "bag" on you for anything just for the sake of doing it. I stated my opinions on the retelling of the story Lucas has done over the years. It has NOTHING to do with you at all. If you think it does, you really need to come out of yourself. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make it personal. You must have an incredible case of low self-esteem to overcompensate so much.


You and Dave are also are, quite frankly, aiding in spreading "misinformation"

I can already see the episode of COPS where they come to get me for this most terrible crime. Aiding in the spreading of misinformation.
"Bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when they come for you?"

They'll never take me alive!!! :biggrin:


And Dave, as far as not getting worked up and "finding a woman" or a dog
or whatever--yeah, yeah, keep telling yourself that as you post on a
message board too.

Nothing wrong with posting on a message board. There is something wrong in being too self absorbed. This isn't about being a geek. We're all geeks here, we play with superheros and science fiction toys. We like computers and the internet. We talk about Star Wars. Sometimes we have debates where we can acknowledge the possibility that someone else's point of view might carry some weight or be interesting. That is until someone freaks because they can't convince you they are in the right and you are wrong.


Maybe its that Lucas has urinated in a few STAR WARS fans (here at MM)
Cheerios over the years, and they are letting it out in this fashion?
Hmmm....


Uh, gee, do you think so? I mean, how many posts have you seen here over the years complaining about the changes and additions? Maybe, just maybe you are on to something here. Good job!

[The Toyroom]

I came for the question and stayed too long to see the typical Huedell drama...:grin::wink_y:

Good luck to all! May the Force be With You!

[huedell]

All I get out of that post Dave is that you are trying
to tell me that Mark Hamill and the 20thCFOX are liars
along with your "sworn enemy" LUCAS

The fact that you and toyroom over here want to make it
out like I'm in the wrong for trying to shed some some light
to the ignorant (namely YOU and anyone else that thumbs
their noses at facts)...well, that's your perogative...

You call it "drama'---I call it "patience" beacuse I
could've easily just dropped it instead of bringing facts to the table
---facts that were gonna be thrown away anyway----oh well

[Mikey]

A lot of people don't know this.....
Spaceballs was actually written by George Lucas in 1973.
After Lucas reworked it into Star Wars in '74.... He sold the original script to Mel Brooks in '86.

[huedell]

A lot of people don't know this.....
Spaceballs was actually written by George Lucas in 1973.
After Lucas reworked it into Star Wars in '74.... He sold the original script to Mel Brooks in '86.

I'd like to note something...

I don't really mind one way or another that you're
(as I said it) "spreading misinformation" I mean, why should I care...
its not MY franchise (and why should LUCAS care---he's got his billion bucks)

I just found it ironic that you & Dave were complaining about Lucas rewriting
"real" history----while you were guilty of not only doing that---
but by taking facts about the making of STAR WARS that I took
to this arena to discuss and threw 'em away as if everybody
was in on a "make Lucas look good" conspiracy

I took it personal---am I crazy for that? Maybe. Just thought
you and Dave would appreciate it...guess I was wrong.
(the COPS thing was funny...especialy out of context...I laughed)

I'd also like to note one more significant thing about what you
said about FETT'S STORY being changed inbetween the time
of ESB and AOTC...well, there's no reason for me to think that
that wasn't a possibility....its quite possible that LUCAS blended the "clone"
and "Fett" aspect into one story because, frankly, it seems
like a logical choice that I haven't heard any thing to contradict
from anyone

Of course anything else you said in that same post is already disproven
through countless interviews---another thing Mike (and all)---
that you have to understand is that revealing all these
surprise "family matters" as SURPRISES was key to LUKE'S STORY'S
success, so it just stands to reason that LUCAS would keep them
as underwraps as possible, until the last possible moment---that'd
take a lot of the "heat" off of what went on regarding them pre ESB/ROTJ
contained in a very small circle of people & sources

[The Toyroom]

The fact that you and toyroom over here want to make it out like I'm in the wrong for trying to shed some some light
to the ignorant (namely YOU and anyone else that thumbs
their noses at facts)...well, that's your perogative...

You call it "drama'---I call it "patience" beacuse I
could've easily just dropped it instead of bringing facts to the table
---facts that were gonna be thrown away anyway----oh well

Hugh, I never said one way or another that you were wrong (although it does seem that you always have to be right)...I have no opinion either way on the topic other than what I stated...typical Huedell drama. Lighten up willya?:smiley1::juggleyes_y:

[huedell]

Hugh, I never said one way or another that you were wrong (although it does seem that you always have to be right)...I have no opinion either way on the topic other than what I stated...typical Huedell drama. Lighten up willya?:smiley1::juggleyes_y:

I see what you're saying. (I never thought you were arguing what I was saying
regarding SW, only calling my "drama" not worth your time
---i.e. "stayed too long"---instead of just enjoying it!) ;)

If I say, I'll "lighten up" right now can I get irritated 5 minutes from now
all over again??? :)

[Vortigern99]

I post the following with no ill intent or hidden agenda, as an ardent fan and admirer of George Lucas and STAR WARS. I post only what I believe to be the facts through years of attention and research into this matter; if I slip up in any regard I ask your forgiveness -- and your prompt correction.

There is some indication that Lucas is either mistaken about the real origins of Darth Vader, or he is deliberately obfuscating the facts in order to present a more cohesive version of the development of the Saga. The early drafts of the original 1977 film (now called Episode IV -- 'A New Hope') show us that Darth Vader and Luke's father were two distinct individuals, existing at the same time in different locations, both with lines of dialogue and totally different purposes in the plot. This remains the case through the various treatments and the first and second draft. The third draft is problematic because it's more like the filmed version, with Kenobi talking about Luke's deceased dad rather than the audience actually seeing the character on-screen, but Luke also has his own memories of his father as a normal, loving guy who could not be Darth Vader. The fourth and fourth revised drafts are the filmed versions of the script, so all we have to go one is Kenobi's "falsehood" to Luke about Vader betraying and murdering his father. If Lucas intended to combine the two characters at this point, he didn't tell anyone about it or make any notes about it, or write it down in any way that has been published or made available in any published work.

The first time the Vader-as-father subplot was written down was the draft of 'The Empire Strikes Back' written by Lawrence Kasdan in April, 1978 -- almost a year after the release of the original film. This does not mean Kasdan came up with the idea; the script derived from story meetings that took place in early 1978 between Lucas, Irvin Kershner the director of ESB, and Kasdan. (Leigh Brackett, though credited with a contribution to the screenplay, only wrote an early, unused draft of "STAR WARS II", before passing away. Her draft tellingly featured the benevolent ghost of Luke's father speaking to his son. Almost nothing of this draft remains.)

There are other factors pointing to the idea that Vader-as-father was not a facet of Lucas' original conception of the story, despite what the author/director has said in interviews in the last ten years or so. One of these is an interview with Lucas himself in 1977, when he described the broad strokes of the 'Jedi purge' perpetrated by Vader. In this account, Lucas reveals that Luke's father, whom he names 'Anakin', survived the Jedi purge, only to be later betrayed and killed by Vader, who is already a mechanical man. It could be argued that Lucas was intentionally misleading the public so as to spring the "surprise" on them in ESB; but if that's the case, if Lucas obfuscated facts about the Saga back then, why would it be so hard to believe that he's obfuscating the facts now? He's either simply mistaken, and innocently misremembering the facts, or he's deliberately revising film and literary history in order to present his work in a better, more cohesive light.

As I said earlier, I think such an effort is unnecessary. The creative process is one of constant revision and development, and requires no false perception by the public indicating otherwise, in order to be considered valid or important or artful.

Regarding Leia, again the filmmakers have gone back and forth, at first admitting that this was not part of the original plan, and that they took a convenient opportunity to tie up loose ends by making her Luke's sister and "the Other" spoken of by Yoda in ESB. In recent years Lucas has backtracked on this score, and now maintains it was his idea all along. The most damning indication that it was an on-the-fly, last-minute retcon is that in the original fourth draft of the 1977 film -- the shooting script of the movie -- Leia's age is given as 16 and Luke's is 19.

If anyone is interested in further reading about the origins of Star Wars, which is still hotly debated on the discussion boards I help moderate at TheForce.Net - Your Daily Dose of Star Wars (http://www.theforce.net), I recommend checking out a full-length e-book, The Secret History of Star Wars, at The Secret History of Star Wars (http://www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com) . It's well researched if occasionally critical, and employs alot of interviews and articles Lucasfilm will not "own up to". Though I did not help write the book in any way, I am listed (as Noah Henson) as the originator of the observation, based on the early drafts, that Luke's dad and Vader were not intended to be the same character until well into the development of Star Wars.

[huedell]

Vortigern wrote:

I post the following with no ill intent or hidden agenda, as an ardent fan and admirer of George Lucas and STAR WARS. I post only what I believe to be the facts through years of attention and research into this matter; if I slip up in any regard I ask your forgiveness -- and your prompt correction.


Same goes for me...all respect...word to your mother and, so on :)

Now onto the words ;)

Your post, informative as it was doesn't really give new information
much more than I already said...especially regarding disproving the
VADER/LEIA stuff specifically

Firstly,
Lucas' early drafts on STAR WARS show a GAZILLION things that weren't
part of the final shooting script.

In truth Lucas loved the idea of making a FLASH GORDON-like serial, but
knew to make his special, he'd have to WORK real hard at a layered myth
of a script to make it the best it could be---something he'd have to do some
good research on------and in the process of perfecting a really cool story with
alotta highly surprising twists, he changed things constantly...as we know him to do ;)

THAT's the nature of writing scripts...especially GOOD ones.

So there's that...

Plus---take note of what I previously posted:

that you have to understand is that revealing all these
surprise "family matters" as SURPRISES was key to LUKE'S STORY'S
success, so it just stands to reason that LUCAS would keep them
as underwraps as possible, until the last possible moment---that'd
take a lot of the "heat" off of what went on regarding them pre ESB/ROTJ
contained in a very small circle of people & sources

This is dead on OBVIOUS regarding the FATHER aspect.

Just listen to the double-talking jive OWEN and BEN give to Luke
regarding VADER/ANAKIN---if the "FATHER" thing wasn't set in
stone---it sure was being considered---PLUS as you explained-
--they left NOTHING to chance and REMOVED any indication that
they were definitely TWO people in the movie....because good chances
were ---they weren't ;)

Anything that remained --that hinted they were TWO people
(even tho' ANAKIN & VADER were likely to be ONE person)
was done for two reasons---one, as a red herring that'd
throw audiences off the scent and build some good drama
between LUKE and DARTH (and OBI and DARTH)
plus---IF NEW HOPE woulda been the LAST SW film---well,
everything woulda been wrapped up neatly enough without
actually KILLING Vader at the end of the film.

Now, the sister aspect? Same deal.
Who ELSE would have been the "other" anyway :)

[jwyblejr]

Unless Lucas went back to his original idea and gave Luke a brother. Although where he was hiding all of that time would be anyone's guess.

[grayhank]

I don't know if this helps but upon looking through the recent book by Steve Sansweet - The Star Wars Vault - there is a reproduction handwritten draft by Lucas for the Empire Strikes Back. It is dated 11/28/77. That was when he began writing the sequel. This was clearly after the release of Star Wars. So whether he had planned the sequel or not is debatable but he didn't start writing it until after Star Wars.

An excerpt from Sansweet's book:

"Lucas, physically and mentally exhausted from his four year writing and directing ordeal, decided to farm out both [writing and directing] for Empire. He wrote a detailed story treatment, but hired Leigh Brackett, a noted fantasy and science fiction author, to write the screenplay; she died of cancer just after handing in a first draft. The draft didn't work for Lucas, so he wrote a second draft and then recruited writer Lawrence Kasdan (with whom he'd been working on the screenplay for Raiders of the Lost Ark) to polish it." Pg.52

[huedell]

I don't know if this helps but upon looking through the recent book by Steve Sansweet - The Star Wars Vault - there is a reproduction handwritten draft by Lucas for the Empire Strikes Back. It is dated 11/28/77. That was when he began writing the sequel. This was clearly after the release of Star Wars. So whether he had planned the sequel or not is debatable but he didn't start writing it until after Star Wars.

An excerpt from Sansweet's book:

"Lucas, physically and mentally exhausted from his four year writing and directing ordeal, decided to farm out both [writing and directing] for Empire. He wrote a detailed story treatment, but hired Leigh Brackett, a noted fantasy and science fiction author, to write the screenplay; she died of cancer just after handing in a first draft. The draft didn't work for Lucas, so he wrote a second draft and then recruited writer Lawrence Kasdan (with whom he'd been working on the screenplay for Raiders of the Lost Ark) to polish it." Pg.52

That has always been the story...and its a true story...but its a
condensed story

After alotta wacky script drafts with plots not much resembling the
movies we came to know Lucas wrote LUKES STORY and eventually
(as he was writing yet ANOTHER rewrite---one closer
to the movies we know) saw that it was too long for
ONE 2 hr. movie (this story concluded with DARTH turning on
the EMPEROR after a final battle over a Death Star type space station)
This was even before any "close to the real story" drafts
scripts were shared with anyone else.
Indeed, once Lucas KNEW there were gonna be
THREE 2 hr. movies and got the idea that
DARTH may be LUKE's father and that LEIA may be
LUKE's sister...and that these CRUCIAL SURPRISE plot
points were gonna be in movies released a long time
after NEW HOPE----well, he kept his great secret(s) to
himself---the future of his STAR WARS project depended
on not ruining those surprises

As mentioned in previous posts---Lucas ALSO wasn't
sure if STAR WARS (NEW HOPE) was going to be the first &
LAST SW movie ever made, so he tried to make SW a self-contained
movie by tacking the DS Battle at the end of ACT ONE of LUKE'S STORY
(a 6 hr. project now turned into a 2hr. project for the time being)
and not touching upon Luke's definitive father story or siblings in ACT ONE
--ACT ONE now being a full 2 hr. movie "A NEW HOPE"

[Bo8a_Fett]

...are we there yet?

[huedell]

Unless Lucas went back to his original idea and gave Luke a brother. Although where he was hiding all of that time would be
anyone's guess.

Interesting---a brother Han Skywalker? Ha!
Talk about sibling rivalry---- ;)

Seriously though---quite a bit a foreshadowing
in EMPIRE what with the "FORCE COMMUNICATION"
between LUKE & LEIA at the end.

One great thing for the "doubting Thomases" here would be
to ask KASDAN and get HIS definitive answer on the definitve subtext
in that scene (and the "there is another" scene)

Personally, I'm going off what Lucas/history has said...

..and more importantly (to me)...the "what the heck else could
those things be hinting at?" theory ;)

I'll also concede that LUCAS was leaving the idea open in case
he decided to go the other way---a less incestual (i.e. "safer"
and thus, a possibly more marketable) way.

In fact, Lucas HAD to leave it open as FORD was threatening
to leave the franchise if he didn't have script approval,
& certain "other" perks...etc. (Ford was the only one who didn't
sign a 3 picture deal) FORD was close to forcing Lucas to
KILL OFF HAN ----and that would've (most likely) forced Lucas to
pair LUKE up with LEIA romantically in the third movie

[Dave Mc]

Ahh Hugh, you make it too easy. :biggrin: I've been working on you for years but you just don't get it. You think I have some dislike for you and some personal vendetta. Far from the truth, I kind of get a kick out of you and I love your passion for customs. However, you get so wound and intense over any of these little debates, so focused on trying to swing others to your point of view and so unwilling to concede any points or issues that it's hard for a guy like me not to "poke the bear" now and again and watch him spin. :biggrin:

I don't know the facts, you've probably stated many things that are true. Probably stated many things that are myth. My personal opinions are the same as originally stated, I don't think as much of it was planned as Lucas now states. However, I'm not so convinced I'm right that I couldn't be easily swayed. However, you get so intense over trying to convince, that's it's too hard to resist playing the other side hard core just to watch you snap. From our first CTVT debate to this current one, and every debate you've had with any member in between, it's the same thing. You discredit yourself by taking it all too seriously and getting all worked up. It kind of becomes a game you let yourself fall victim too. People stop listening to what you say and just start watching the show.

Back off on the coffee or something man, but put it in perspective. LIGHTEN UP! Sometimes you're wrong, consider that. Sometimes you are right but can't convince the other side of it. No big deal, it's not worth getting yourself all lathered up about. You can never see when someone is actually debating you, or when someone is just pushing your buttons. I admit, it's not a nice thing to do, but sometimes it's just hard to resist. :biggrin:

[huedell]

Don't know EXACTLY what to say Dave---

I hear ya--you have fun on message boards, egging people on...

...guess its kinda the same reason I pro-actively chime in on threads where
I know I'll have tough opposition on certain subject matter (?)
(altho' I always have a sincere passion for what I'm saying--
-and I don't say it just to "say it" or "wind people up")

--I don't know if you can tell from my reply posts--
-but I try to temper each of my irritated reactions with
something to balance it----to bring some additional logic
to the thread subject or whatever.

Is it a lot of "drama", or whatever? Apparently so.
However, to me, my passionate insights are straight-up "me"

You just continuing on doing what you're doing for posts is your business
(right or wrong, you seem okay enough)...
and, myself, I'd prefer continuing doing what I'm doing--- which is
certainly not being a "troll"....that term doesn't jive with me, because its
just not true...

---but we all know how SUSPECT the "truth" is around here ;)

...ahem...

regarding the STAR WARS stuff ...I've learned a couplea things here---
and hopefully you & others have to...that's about it :)

[Vortigern99]

Huedell, I think you've missed my point. I wholly appreciate the vagaries of the creative process, and as an artist and writer I fully understand the surprisng twists and turns a story or a piece of artwork can take, seemingly of its own volition. I have no problem with the idea that Vader and Luke's father were originally two distinct characters, then merged at some point in the development of the Saga -- probably, as I've shown, in early 1978. In fact, I think it's a stroke of genius. The impact that revelation had on me as a young man is indescribably profound.

The problem -- and the reason for this discussion -- arises when Mr. Lucas asserts, as he has done for many years now, that "Vader and Anakin were always one character" and that "STAR WAR was always about this monster villain who turns out to be the hero's father". (These are almost direct quotes of what Lucas has said time and again; I'm only paraphrasing the order of the wording.) These statements are demonstrably untrue. Thus, Lucas is either innocently mistaken about the origins of his own story -- perhaps he simply has a poor memory -- or he is deliberately obfuscating the truth in order to lend more credence or validity to his work.


Vortigern wrote:


Same goes for me...all respect...word to your mother and, so on :)

Now onto the words ;)

Your post, informative as it was doesn't really give new information
much more than I already said...especially regarding disproving the
VADER/LEIA stuff specifically

Firstly,
Lucas' early drafts on STAR WARS show a GAZILLION things that weren't
part of the final shooting script.

In truth Lucas loved the idea of making a FLASH GORDON-like serial, but
knew to make his special, he'd have to WORK real hard at a layered myth
of a script to make it the best it could be---something he'd have to do some
good research on------and in the process of perfecting a really cool story with
alotta highly surprising twists, he changed things constantly...as we know him to do ;)

THAT's the nature of writing scripts...especially GOOD ones.

So there's that...

Plus---take note of what I previously posted:


This is dead on OBVIOUS regarding the FATHER aspect.

Just listen to the double-talking jive OWEN and BEN give to Luke
regarding VADER/ANAKIN---if the "FATHER" thing wasn't set in
stone---it sure was being considered---PLUS as you explained-
--they left NOTHING to chance and REMOVED any indication that
they were definitely TWO people in the movie....because good chances
were ---they weren't ;)

Anything that remained --that hinted they were TWO people
(even tho' ANAKIN & VADER were likely to be ONE person)
was done for two reasons---one, as a red herring that'd
throw audiences off the scent and build some good drama
between LUKE and DARTH (and OBI and DARTH)
plus---IF NEW HOPE woulda been the LAST SW film---well,
everything woulda been wrapped up neatly enough without
actually KILLING Vader at the end of the film.

Now, the sister aspect? Same deal.
Who ELSE would have been the "other" anyway :)

[huedell]

Vortigern---its not so much that "I missed your point" as
I guess I just was addressing YOUR points as if
I was moreso talking to some of the others that have posted
in this thread ---as, at some times I thought you
were doing something strange by seemingly pressing
points which I felt like we were long past realizing
and by doing that, contributing to some misundersandings
regarding issues that we WEREN'T "past realizing"
and giving others on this thread fodder for complicating
some points of my own I was trying to make...

(The most apparent point being the obvious thing of
VADER AS LUKE'S FATHER coming into play VERY late
in the game...I thought we settled that early on
in the thread)

I realize the above explanation is a bit tricky to decipher
---but re-read it a few times and you may get what I'm
trying to say ;)

Regardless---I think I know what you're getting at with your posts
----especialy after skimming thru your great book

[Vortigern99]

Hudell, the reason I posted a summary of the discrepancies between the documented version of SW's origins, and Lucas' latter-day statements contradicting the evidence, is that there was at least one member here -- like me and you, a fellow SW lover -- who seemed to have no idea that such a controversy existed. I like and respect all fans of the Saga, and the fact that some appear to accept the official line regarding SW's history inspired me to post the alternative, "secret" or opposing account.

You then posted a reply that expounded on the "Flash Gordon serial" aspect of SW, which is irrelevant to my point -- and on the fluid nature of the creative process, which I readily regard as valid but again, irrelevant to my point about discrepancies in the differing accounts of SW's origins.



Vortigern---its not so much that "I missed your point" as
I guess I just was addressing YOUR points as if
I was moreso talking to some of the others that have posted
in this thread ---as, at some times I thought you
were doing something strange by seemingly pressing
points which I felt like we were long past realizing
and by doing that, contributing to some misundersandings
regarding issues that we WEREN'T "past realizing"
and giving others on this thread fodder for complicating
some points of my own I was trying to make...

(The most apparent point being the obvious thing of
VADER AS LUKE'S FATHER coming into play VERY late
in the game...I thought we settled that early on
in the thread)

I realize the above explanation is a bit tricky to decipher
---but re-read it a few times and you may get what I'm
trying to say ;)

Regardless---I think I know what you're getting at with your posts
----especialy after skimming thru your great book

[huedell]

Hudell, the reason I posted a summary of the discrepancies between the documented version of SW's origins, and Lucas' latter-day statements contradicting the evidence, is that there was at least one member here -- like me and you, a fellow SW lover -- who seemed to have no idea that such a controversy existed. I like and respect all fans of the Saga, and the fact that some appear to accept the official line regarding SW's history inspired me to post the alternative, "secret" or opposing account.

You then posted a reply that expounded on the "Flash Gordon serial" aspect of SW, which is irrelevant to my point -- and on the fluid nature of the creative process, which I readily regard as valid but again, irrelevant to my point about discrepancies in the differing accounts of SW's origins.

The FLASH GORDON stuff I was expounding upon had nothing
to do with anything except as some kind of gauge to
show the other posters what LUCAS' intent was regarding the
origins of STAR WARS sequels----not many know that George
tried to get the rights to do FG movies and failed---I
didn't mention he was "denied", btw

If you're saying NEW HOPE was the only movie planned
up until 1978---well, I'd say that's a falsity as directly
before---maybe just as he was about to shoot ANH---
if you're so inclined to think so---George split
LUKE'S STORY up into three movies---if the
"3 ACTS turned into 3 MOVIES" story is a big lie by LUCAS
well, ---that's just an awful big lie---and, in addition, a
hard lie to pull off without reprecussions of others like
KASDAN and any one related to that group around then
saying: TWO DEATH STARS GEORGE? "NO EFFIN WAY"

This is a tricky subject to discuss on a message board because the
subject matter is very intricate---because of that---we basically
just posted the same sentiment towards each other regarding
not wanting the details of the others posts to mislead other posters
into misinterpreting our own posts that seemingly look we are trying
disprove the other---or don't understand the other--
-so, okay--now that that's stated--on to the next point---if there
is one

[Vortigern99]

Well, we certainly agree about the Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers/Republic serial influence on SW. No objections there at all.

But as to the assertion, made by Lucas, that he had all three movies conceived as one giant script, which he broke up and produced three movies out of, is demonstrably untrue. This can be proven beyond dispute by the Lucasbooks published Annotated Screenplays, edited by L. Bouzereau. In this work, every one of the early drafts and treatments of the original 1977film is summarized and commented on by the editor, supplemented by interviews with Lucas, Kasdan, Kutz, et al. None of these drafts show the massive script Lucas speaks of.

In fact, the early drafts of ESB and ROTJ are entirely different from what appeared in the final films, showing that the events and characters of the later two episodes were not conceived of until the writing of those screenplays. There was no "master script" containing the plot points of ESB and ROTJ in any form whatsoever. (NB: Again, there is nothing unusual or reprehensible about this of itself; the issue is that Lucas says one thing and the scripts say another.)

The only way in which this story has any validity is the ground battle in the forest -- originally conceived of as being on what became Yavin, and involving Wookiees (who in the early drafts actually learn to pilot starcraft in the battle aginst the Empire). That battle by primitives (who became Ewoks in ROTJ) is the only element from the early drafts of the 1977 film that is used in either of the sequels. This hardly constitutes a "master screenplay" covering the events of all three movies.

Yes, from the beginning Lucas did consider making sequels, hoping that the original 1977 movie would be a modest success. Since he could have had no idea how successful the film would become, and since in those days sequels were lower-budgeted than their originals, he considred that he might make a low-budget sequel. To this end he hired Alan Dean Foster -- ghost writer of the novielization of 'Star Wars' -- to work out a story. After the first movie was a huge hit, Lucas jettisoned the Foster-penned sequel as a movie, but it became Splinter in the Mind's Eye, the first non-novelization SW book. (Foster talks about this in an interview which I can supply if you ask.)



The FLASH GORDON stuff I was expounding upon had nothing
to do with anything except as some kind of gauge to
show the other posters what LUCAS' intent was regarding the
origins of STAR WARS sequels----not many know that George
tried to get the rights to do FG movies and failed---I
didn't mention he was "denied", btw

If you're saying NEW HOPE was the only movie planned
up until 1978---well, I'd say that's a falsity as directly
before---maybe just as he was about to shoot ANH---
if you're so inclined to think so---George split
LUKE'S STORY up into three movies---if the
"3 ACTS turned into 3 MOVIES" story is a big lie by LUCAS
well, ---that's just an awful big lie---and, in addition, a
hard lie to pull off without reprecussions of others like
KASDAN and any one related to that group around then
saying: TWO DEATH STARS GEORGE? "NO EFFIN WAY"

This is a tricky subject to discuss on a message board because the
subject matter is very intricate---because of that---we basically
just posted the same sentiment towards each other regarding
not wanting the details of the others posts to mislead other posters
into misinterpreting our own posts that seemingly look we are trying
disprove the other---or don't understand the other--
-so, okay--now that that's stated--on to the next point---if there
is one

[huedell]

Yes, from the beginning Lucas did consider making sequels, hoping that the original 1977 movie would be a modest success. Since he could have had no idea how successful the film would become, and since in those days sequels were lower-budgeted than their originals, he considred that he might make a low-budget sequel. To this end he hired Alan Dean Foster -- ghost writer of the novielization of 'Star Wars' -- to work out a story. After the first movie was a huge hit, Lucas jettisoned the Foster-penned sequel as a movie, but it became Splinter in the Mind's Eye, the first non-novelization SW book. (Foster talks about this in an interview which I can supply if you ask.)


This was part of my main point that, firstly, Lucas did indeed have sequels
planned...and secondly, altho' there may have been no master SCRIPT
for the sequels, that indeed there was a master STORY that was divided
into three acts. If Lucas says there was an ACTUAL script...and its documented
that there was NO script...well that confuses the heck out of me---because that
means that Lucas is telling a lie that doesn't even need to be told.
(He could always stick by the idea that he had the STORY at that later point
and that he never bothered writing anything resembling a script at that
late point because it was so close to the time that he had started shooting ANH)

As far as FOSTER'S "SPLINTER"---I thought Lucas had that ghostwritten in the meantime
as a quick STAR WARS fix for fans that involved yet ANOTHER loose STAR WARS
plot that wasn't as complicated/"cool" as what was going to happen in EMPIRE,
but could have been FILMED for a lot less money because it basically all took place on one simple planet...
but now wasn't even considered being filmed because, of course ANH was such a big hit.
(EDITED TO SAY: DANG! THat's pretty much what you just said!) :)

Also, its interesting to note that LEIA goes up against VADER in a lightsaber fight in
that story---I always felt that that was heavy foreshadowing on what LUCAS
planned to do regarding her "FORCE DNA"...but, certainly I could be wrong about that.

Man, I miss reading that book! I gotta buy it again! And I heard they made a graphic
novel of it. Did they make action figures based on SPLINTER yet? That would rule.
No offense to Zahn fans, but I think SPLINTER blows those books away.

[DocDrako]

They did indeed make a graphic novel of it, but it's been awhile since I read it. I've read the book twice, and I really like it. I haven't read any of the Zahn books.

[Mikey]

This thread just got really boring.........

Hue isn't mad and defensive anymore :smiley1:

m

[huedell]

Thanks for the confirmation Doc^^^^
The thing that's cool about the idea of there being a graphic novel
of it is that now there's definitive costumes for Luke & Leia
in that story as well as a visual look for the WUZZEM(?)---the
two hairy guys that helped out----and Hallah(?) the mystical old
woman----I'm going to go to the SOTME entry right now & read up
---and I'm sure I'll be well-informed about all that stuff I'm curious about.
(Jeez, until Vort brought up SOTME, I hadn't thought about it for a LONG time!)

[Vortigern99]

Agreed Splinter is a sweet read. The reason I bring it up is to show that the events of ESB and ROTJ, despite what Lucas says about his "master script split into three movies", were not actually written in any form until after the resounding success of the first 1977 movie.

Foster speaks on the issue to echostation.com:

Alan Dean Foster: "I was contacted in 1975 by Lucas' representatives to do the novelization of the first Star Wars film, plus an original sequel...As far as I know, Empire was no more than a snow glint in Lucas's eye when I was writing Splinter. The fact that Splinter fits after-the-fact as well as it does into the arching storyline of the saga is a delightful coincidence."

[huedell]

This thread just got really boring.........

Hue isn't mad and defensive anymore :smiley1:

m

Like its THAT hard for you to figure out how
to fire me up once again ;)

[Mikey]

Just kidding Hue,,,,,
You're GREAT !!!
http://myspace-645.vo.llnwd.net/00533/54/69/533429645_m.gif

m

[huedell]

The reason I bring it up is to show that the events of ESB and ROTJ, despite
what Lucas says about his "master script split into three movies", were not actually
WRITTEN IN ANY FORM until after the resounding success of the first 1977 movie.


Hmmm...does something have to be "written" and shared for it be a legit
thing in STAR WARS history?

Up until this moment, I've maintained that LUCAS was always telling the truth
about the BASIC events in ESB and ROTJ being in place as ANH was being
started/filmed (minus things like the character YODA who was originally BEN for example)
and that LUCAS kept the family revelations underwraps because
of the necessity for the "shock" value to the public.

If he's absolutely LYING about this---then I concede LUCAS is one of the biggest liars
I've ever heard and I just don't get why he'd go on record and repeatedly
tell that DEATH STAR anecdote alongside his trepidations for the family stuff
which would (if he were lying) not be "TREPIDATIONS" at all, but out and out "NEVER WERES".

If THAT'S the case then everything I've said in this thread up til this point would be
based on a huge lie which, I don't get just WHY Lucas would go through the trouble
of telling----not to mention how (as I mentined above in this post) how the
original movies never outright contradict what Lucas said he had planned.

As far as what FOSTER said about his novel working within the saga being
"coincidence"---well, there's a heckuva lotta "coincidences" aren't there...
i.e. it seems LUCAS was planning the surprises ahead of time albeit waffling
whether to go thru with them in the end---how else do you explain the plots
never TRULY crossing the line into "no return" i.e. a scene of VADER murdering
ANAKIN in a flashback or some sort of irreversible decision that would've negated
the SKYWALKER FAMILY STUFF potential to be used?

[huedell]

Just kidding Hue,,,,,
You're GREAT !!!
http://myspace-645.vo.llnwd.net/00533/54/69/533429645_m.gif

m

Only a REAL Futurama fan would've caught the goatee, and the
humor connected with that character and his personality :)

On that mindframe---
if you are FLEXO---then I am the deformed lovechild of
ZOIDBERG and CALCULON :)

[Bizarro Amy]

Is this thread still going? :smiley1:
It was fun debating plot points and inconsistencies of the SW universe, but please tell me you guys aren't still arguing over what was planned from the start and what was made up along the way. I couldn't get through all the posts to find out. So if there was something I needed to respond to, I apologize. I kind of got lost in there.
I do, however, recall someone mentioning that the SW novels are garbage. Yes, some of them were. I only recently got into them. I struggled through the "Bounty Hunter Wars" storyline and was actually relieved to have finished the chore. The Zahn books were pretty good. I'm also getting ready to read "Shadows of the Empire," because there are a few characters there that intrigue me. But if you want a really good read, check out the "Legacy of the Force" series. Great stuff, dealing with the offspring of the Skywalker and Solo clans and other fun stuff. Also, the current "Star Wars:Legacy" comic is a fantastic read.(What is it with titles that include Legacy?) It takes place something like 50-100 years after Return of the Jedi. It's one of my favorite things when I pick up my monthly comic subscriptions.

[huedell]

It was fun debating plot points and inconsistencies of the SW universe, but please tell me you guys aren't still arguing over what was planned from the start and what was made up along the way.

No can do.

[johnmiic]

Is this thread still going? :smiley1:
It was fun debating plot points and inconsistencies of the SW universe, but please tell me you guys aren't still arguing over what was planned from the start and what was made up along the way.

I was done with this thread days ago. It t'aint no fun no maw!

[Vortigern99]

Anyone who is interested in the original scripts can read them for themselves at http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/

There is also the Lucasbooks-published Annotated Screenplays edited by L. Bouzereau.

All of this material directly contradicts Lucas' assertions about the origins of Darth Vader. If Vader was intended to be synonomous with Luke's father, Lucas never wrote it down and kept it in his mind only as a possibility, while in fact deciding on the exact opposite course for the plot: making Vader and Anakin two separate characters -- until the third draft of ESB.

To answer Huedell's question, written material is only important when discussing a supposed master screenplay hitting all the plot points of ESB and ROTJ. (What other kind of screenplay could he mean? An imaginary one? An orally-dictated one?) Lucas' fabled 'big script' simply does not exist.

[huedell]

I was done with this thread days ago.

Obviously not. Quit cryin' ya geeks! :)

(I don't know what's more "nerdier"--- carrying on this conversation for a long time
or actually putting a limit on how long it can go!) :)

[huedell]

If Vader was intended to be synonomous with Luke's father, Lucas never wrote it down and kept it in his mind only as a possibility, while in fact deciding on the exact opposite course for the plot: making Vader and Anakin two separate characters -- until the third draft of ESB.

And whether they were two seperate characters or not---they never showed
up in ANH as two characters---only TALKED about in very tense ambiguous
dialogue recited by BEN and OWEN (and BERU too I guess)---people
who would want to hide the truth from him...and don't get me started on
the definition of what I mean by "tense"---I mean, even BERU'S line:
"...too much of his father in him..." is placed and delivered in such a way,
well.... ;)


To answer Huedell's question, written material is only important when discussing a supposed master screenplay hitting all the plot points of ESB and ROTJ. (What other kind of screenplay could he mean? An imaginary one? An orally-dictated one?) Lucas' fabled 'big script' simply does not exist.

I think the point is moot...because, lets say he said an actual FULL SCRIPT
existed (and maybe he has been so literal with that statement---I don't
know)----Lucas still would've HAD to keep it private due to the surprise(s)

Regardless...
At the point the third draft ESB was being put together, all LUCAS would've had
to do is change a few lines of dialogue near the end to take "the leap"
A "leap" that LUCAS maintains he had been considering for a LONG time...
and, yeah, I believe him.

[johnmiic]

Obviously not. Quit cryin' ya geeks! :)


Yep, like I said, no fun anymore.

[Vortigern99]

And whether they were two seperate characters or not---they never showed
up in ANH as two characters---only TALKED about in very tense ambiguous
dialogue recited by BEN and OWEN (and BERU too I guess)---people
who would want to hide the truth from him...and don't get me started on
the definition of what I mean by "tense"---I mean, even BERU'S line:
"...too much of his father in him..." is placed and delivered in such a way,
well.... ;)

I agree it all jibes beautifully, which is part of my reason for recognizing Lucas' genius on this score. The fact that it all falls into place is a wonder of imaginative storytelling. But keep in mind that the first two drafts of ESB -- one by Lucas and one by Brackett -- did not have the Vader-as-father subplot, and in fact Brackett's draft featured a visit by the ghost of Luke's very benevolent, non-Vader, dead father. Also, there is the matter of the two existing as separate characters in the early drafts, which refutes Lucas' assertions that the story was "always about this monster villain who turns out to be the father of the hero." The hero's father in the first three of four drafts of the original film was a benevolent Jedi who existed in the same time frame as, and separate from, Darth Vader.


I think the point is moot...because, lets say he said an actual FULL SCRIPTexisted (and maybe he has been so literal with that statement---I don't know)----Lucas still would've HAD to keep it private due to the surprise(s)

The fact is, Lucas does maintain the fiction of a "master script" that contained the plots of all three movies; I can furnish direct quotes if you like. You yourself raised this very point, which is why i'm rebutting it. As far as secrecy goes, the Annotated Screenplays were published in 1997, 14 years after the release of ROTJ. By then the whole movie-going world knew that Vader was Luke's father; the idea had become part of the public consciousness. There would have been no need to keep "secret" this master screenplay. Bouzereau, the editor of the Lucasbooks-published AS, worked with every treatment and draft of STAR WARS ever written.


Regardless...
At the point the third draft ESB was being put together, all LUCAS would've had
to do is change a few lines of dialogue near the end to take "the leap"
A "leap" that LUCAS maintains he had been considering for a LONG time...
and, yeah, I believe him.

If he considered it, he never wrote it down in any form, and in fact wrote down the exact opposite plotline, that Vader and Luke's father were distinct individuals living in the same frame of time, thus rendering invalid his assertions that SW was "always about a monster villain who turns out to be the father of the hero."

[huedell]

But keep in mind that the first two drafts of ESB -- one by Lucas and one by Brackett -- did not have the Vader-as-father subplot, and in fact Brackett's draft featured a visit by the ghost of Luke's very benevolent, non-Vader, dead father.

That's pretty cool. Of course, ultimately, Lucas wasn't satisfied with that "safer"
direction---but I can understand why it was being considered so far into the process
for Brackett to have drafted a version of that up.


If he considered it, he never wrote it down in any form, and in fact wrote down the exact opposite plotline, that Vader and Luke's father were distinct individuals living in the same frame of time, thus rendering invalid his assertions that SW was "always about a monster villain who turns out to be the father of the hero."


And, even though that's not exactly what the full aspect of our debate was here,
I DO realize that's a big part of it----and your entire point here.


The fact is, Lucas does maintain the fiction of a "master script" that contained the plots of all three movies; I can furnish direct quotes if you like. You yourself raised this very point, which is why i'm rebutting it.

Ashamedly, I admit that in this lengthy thread I have brought up a FEW points
that I wish I wouldn't have for matters of keeping this debate/discussion reined in
so as to have less to ponder over---but---hey---ya live and ya learn ;)

Yeah---an actual FULL SCRIPT never existed (or Lucas would've shown it by now--
wouldn't he have?)---and it sounds like Lucas said it did indeed exist(?)...

In the end, there's still the idea of what was in LUCAS' head and in "private treatments"
for the potential paths for the SKYWALKER FAMILY TREE

It seems this whole topic is too vague/too "loophole" ready to be definitive---
---altho' a 350 + page book is a nice start!

[Hector]

The new trilogy blows and they should all be destroyed for humanity's sake.

[huedell]

The new trilogy blows and they should all be destroyed for humanity's sake.

And by "they" you mean JarJar's family of course :)

[MIB41]

The Emperor: "Funny, I have never felt him..." That pretty much sums it up for me. :smiley1:

[danadoll]

I was always perplexed by this...Darth Vader could feel a powerful Force presense when Obi Wan arrived on the Death Star in "New Hope", right?...Apparently both Luke AND Leia also have very powerful ties to the Force (via Anakin/Vader), yet he did not sense it in either of them in the first film? Leia was his prisoner on the DS and Vader even personally interrogated her, but he sensed nothing in that whole time?

The only time he sensed the Force in Luke is at the end of the film, when he is trying to stop Luke from destroying the Death Star?...Odd.

I don't believe that Lucas had the entire story/trilogy plotted out...I do think he changed things as the story progressed.

Keep in mind it's a long time since I've seen the original films, unaltered.

Dana

[huedell]

I don't believe that Lucas had the entire story/trilogy plotted out...I do think he
changed things as the story progressed.


Keep in mind that during this whole thread I've been the most supportive of Lucas
having certain key ideas "in mind" as the original 3 flicks were put together---and even
I agree with all that stuff you said about Luke/Leia's and Darth's "force detection"
and the incongruent stuff there

If one thing this LONG thread has trumpted all throughout is that the
bits that LUCAS (may have) pre-planned were in a very small amount indeed...
there's too much proving that to support the contrary.

[Vortigern99]

In all my grumblings about Lucas' lack of forthcomingness about the true origins, even I acknowledge that he did indeed have certain "key ideas" worked out regarding the prequels. This is demonstrably true because we have interviews from 1977-1980 (in Starlog and RS and other magazines) in which Lucas discusses the duel between Vader and Kenobi over volcanic lava, and also, perhaps more surprisingly, the clone origins of the Stormtroopers and the backstory of Boba Fett as the original "superstormtrooper" clone.

However, that said, I must remind that the SEQUELS -- ESB and ROTJ -- were created out of whole cloth in the pre-production phases of those films, as can be seen from the way the drafts take shape: from having NO resemblance to the eventual shooting scripts, to being the finished products we see dramatized on-screen today.

[monkey tennis]

Bumpity Bump :grin: :grin:

[The Bat]

What really botherr Me the most about ROTJ was...when Lucas took out the Ewok song at the ending!!:enraged::grin:

[Brue]

Lucas did not have sequels let alone prequels in mind.

As with any movie there was stuff that needed rewritten and edited - could this stuff be used in future films? Sure. This is true with every story.

Does any of episode 1 - 3 make any sense? Not unless you have really twisted revisionist logic. Best just to pretend these films don't exist. ROTJ wasn't much better. Even Empire, though a great film in it's own right, steps on the storyline somewhat.

The one thing I will give Lucas foresight on is the prologue to the Star Wars novel which basically summarizes the prequels (mercifully in 2 or 3 pages) - of course the same novel reads "From the adventures of Luke Skywalker" on the cover - which, considering Luke wasn't in the prequels that he NEVER had any intention of writing such stories.

-Oh, by the way I skipped several pages of reading in this thread - so sorry if I repeated anything someone already addressed

[Gorn Captain]

Lucas did have 9 movies in mind (I read it in many interviews in '1977-78), but probably not the way the story turned out now. He definitely wanted to continue, or maybe he just squashed it all in 6 movies to be done with it. But he's changed his mind so many times now, who knows what to expect? He also said so many times that he wanted to do "serious movies" (aka not SW?), but instead he keeps on rehashing SW, and now the dreaded 100-200-a million episode TV series? Before we now it, Yak Face will have his own sit-com, Sy Snootles will go on American Idol, and there will be Ewoks on Lost.
I wish him all the best with the new stuff he's doing, but as far as I'm concerned, he has turned to the Dark Side. He's more machine now...

PS: OK, Lucas fans, you can start bombarding me with rocks and sticks now!
PS2: I just love my old bootleg SW DVDs and I'll probably be cremated with them. When I got those a few years back, I was over the moon...

[Brue]

Lucas did have 9 movies in mind (I read it in many interviews in '1977-78),

Which was after success had been realized. If you had read this in '75-'76 I'd have been impressed.

[huedell]

Which was after success had been realized. If you had read this in '75-'76 I'd have been impressed.


As I've said before...on the set of A NEW HOPE Lucas jawed on and on with
Hamill about many other movies planned...unless Hamill is straight out
lying...well...we know he isn't

[Gorn Captain]

Which was after success had been realized. If you had read this in '75-'76 I'd have been impressed.

Actually, thanks to my Time Lord TARDIS, I did read it in 1975 already. Hence my loft full of cases of SW 12-backs, tons of boxed megos, and much, much more. Timetravel and toy collecting go together like bread and peanutbutter...

So the real question remains: was he just boasting back in '77, or did he actually intend to do it (and have the storyline mapped out).
Somebody send Jack Bauer to extract the truth!

[PCofmisfittoys]

i'll have to find my vintage magazine issues that talk about him doing 9 movies...

[Seeker]

Actually, thanks to my Time Lord TARDIS, I did read it in 1975 already. Hence my loft full of cases of SW 12-backs, tons of boxed megos, and much, much more. Timetravel and toy collecting go together like bread and peanutbutter...

So the real question remains: was he just boasting back in '77, or did he actually intend to do it (and have the storyline mapped out).
Somebody send Jack Bauer to extract the truth!

God if I could go back in time I'd have my house paid off, put the kids through college and............


I remember seeing a 8 foot run of star trek megos with all the aliens at Child World once. Speaking of aliens I remember seeing an entire wall of original Alien figures marked down clearance at a local dept store. Of coarse no kid would be allowed to get a toy from a rated R movie:no: at the time.

[johnmiic]

Wha...? Are we back on this topic again?!?!?!

[palitoy]

I seem to recall mention of these being in a book about Star Wars published in the late 70's. Just going on school yard memories here so Starlog might be the source.

A friend of mine in the 80's had an unbelievable SW collection, original props etc and he had a draft of "episode one" that was pretty interesting, I was surprised at how much of that was in the resulting movies years later.

[Flynne]

Wouldn't the first 10 seconds of "Star Wars" lead you to think he had more stories in mind than the Original Star Wars Trilogy? The first words of the opening paragraph are after all "Episode IV".

In the depth of my 80's Convention Artifacts I have a copy of the Episode One script Brian mentions. It's a blue covered screenplay photocopy titled "The Star Wars", and I remember hearing something about how Lucas preferred it with "The" but 20th Century Fox didn't. I got it out not too long ago and read again about how Obi-Wan and Anakin fought and Anakin was partially consumed by lava. Some of it was way off, but some of it was dead on - and I purchased it in the mid 80's (though it does have an original copyright of 1974, but of course that could be apocraphyl).

The real problem is that Lucas is like Bill Gates and Gene Roddenberry - Lucas knows how to locate talented people to innovate, and where he can't innovate he buys, to build the most marketable buisness in his market segment. Lucas has great ideas, but he is a terrible screenplay writer and terrible Director. Like Gates and Roddenberry, Lucas is at his best when he hands his ideas over to others to develop and direct while he produces ("Empire Strikes Back,", anyone?). Know your role.

[palitoy]

"The Star Wars"

If you take the "s" off the end, that's how my grandmother refers to it.

[Hector]

Lucas did indeed discuss the nine movie project from the begining.

[Flynne]

The page still needs plenty of citations, but, for what it's worth, here's the Wiki page on this topic:

Star Wars sequel trilogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_VII)

[SainthoodDenied]

LOL, I'm not even getting in on this cause I could rant for hours.:juggleyes_y:

[Brue]

Wouldn't the first 10 seconds of "Star Wars" lead you to think he had more stories in mind than the Original Star Wars Trilogy? The first words of the opening paragraph are after all "Episode IV".

...

These words were added after the initial release.

[Flynne]

Which was after success had been realized. If you had read this in '75-'76 I'd have been impressed.

Sorry, I missed this post before. I thought you were genuinely looking for more information on the subject rather than something to impress you. Never mind.

[johnmiic]

I think Lucas should make Episode 1A without any gungan characters as an apology for creating Jar Jar Binks, and 2 prequels to Episode 1 to fill it all out to 9 films.

For the new TV series he should sign Danny Bonaduce, Samuel 'Screech' Powers & Jaleel "Erkel" White as new Jedi in the TV show because the have not been mentioned in continuity in any of the later films. Mr. Snufflelufugus from Sesame Street should be the voice of wisdom on the Jedi council because he hasn't had work in decades.

Marlee Matlin should play a major female character and use only sign language when she does her lines and sub-titles should appear below forcing us to read what she has to say. The other characters should also be able to see these sub-titles and regard it as her using the force.

Peter McCallum should be ditched and Rick Berman of Star Trek hired as producer.

Instead of using Darth Vader, who is too powerful, a new villain should be introduced played by DJ, Jerry Carroll, of the old Crazy Eddie tv commercial fame. Every time he strikes against the rebels he should say, " You can't defeat the Sith! They're In-saaaaaaannneeee!"

LiveLeak.com - Crazy Eddie Commercials 1980's (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dae_1200607623)

[PCofmisfittoys]

If i can find the issues , it was talked about in Starlog and other mags of the day. I even think it ws in Bantha tracks back then too. I've got all the starlogs/ bantha tracks but they are in storage.
He always said that he had to do the middle three first because not only would it not make sense to people watching it or been interesting , but the technology was where he wanted it to be to do the other 6 films at the time. I think the middle three captured the world. Lord knows it was/is the greatest marketed toy line ever.
I remember thinking it would be exciting to see all 9 in a row. I knew then that he would make them all . I think he still could have. I wish he could have continued the Droids/ewoks lines. Some of my favorite toys from all of the SW toys .

[danadoll]

Johnmiic! Don't give Lucas any ideas! His own ideas are bad enough, lately.

Dana


I think Lucas should make Episode 1A without any gungan characters as an apology for creating Jar Jar Binks, and 2 prequels to Episode 1 to fill it all out to 9 films.

For the new TV series he should sign Danny Bonaduce, Samuel 'Screech' Powers & Jaleel "Erkel" White as new Jedi in the TV show because the have not been mentioned in continuity in any of the later films. Mr. Snufflelufugus from Sesame Street should be the voice of wisdom on the Jedi council because he hasn't had work in decades.

Marlee Matlin should play a major female character and use only sign language when she does her lines and sub-titles should appear below forcing us to read what she has to say. The other characters should also be able to see these sub-titles and regard it as her using the force.

Peter McCallum should be ditched and Rick Berman of Star Trek hired as producer.

Instead of using Darth Vader, who is too powerful, a new villain should be introduced played by DJ, Jerry Carroll, of the old Crazy Eddie tv commercial fame. Every time he strikes against the rebels he should say, " You can't defeat the Sith! They're In-saaaaaaannneeee!"

LiveLeak.com - Crazy Eddie Commercials 1980's (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dae_1200607623)

[danadoll]

I'm sure Lucas had 9 films planned...Oh and the Holiday Special too.

:wink_y:

[wyldpny]

Yes it's true, Lucas originally had planned on 9 movies.
As he shopped around the stories at different studios he kept getting shot down, and it wasn't until Alan Ladd at 20th Century Fox decided to take a chance on Lucas and one of his space stories that Star Wars was made. But Ladd said he would only do episode 4 as he felt it had the most action and adventure. Lucas argued that they needed to start at the beginning but Ladd held firmly and told Lucas that if it did well enough they would relook at maybe doing another one. Since Lucas had been shot down by just about every other studio, even though he didn't like it and didn't want to start right off almost in the middle of his 9 stories he didn't have much of a choice.
Fans were shocked and ****ed off when later Lucas made claims that he had always said and planned on doing just six movies. Fans knew better and had been looking forward to not only the three before New Hope but also the three that were supposed to be after Return of the Jedi.
BTW: How many remember what Return of the Jedi was originally going to be called?
And how many know the real reason why it was changed to the word "Return"?

[Merlyn1976]

BTW: How many remember what Return of the Jedi was originally going to be called?
And how many know the real reason why it was changed to the word "Return"?

Revenge of the Jedi....revenge isn't a Jedi trait....

[wyldpny]

Yes, it was originally going to be called Revenge of the Jedi, but the reason why it was changed to Return was NOT because of what Lucas said later, that Revenge is not a Jedi trait. Which is of course true, but still not the original reason.
Anyone else know why it was originally changed to Return?

[apes3978]

Anyone else know why it was originally changed to Return?

This is a total guess: Is it because the Jedi returned thru Luke after they were thought to "extinct"?

[Vortigern99]

The story about Ladd picking Ep. IV out of a range of stories is incorrect, a sort of Hollywood myth that has no basis in actual fact. From the very beginning of his writings on the subject, Lucas' THE STAR WARS had a similar plot to Kurosawa's Samurai film The Hidden Fortress: a Princess escapes the cluthces of an enemy clan with her faithful commander, and her royal fortune hidden in her belongings. All treatments, drafts and notes on the film adhere to this basic idea in one form or another. There were no other episodes written or conceived of except for a few pages of backstory notes that later became the prequel films.

As far as sequel ideas go, Lucas conceived of Splinter in the Mind's Eye as a low-budget sequel to the original film, in case it did modestly well at the box office. There was no grand saga conceived of at that time with multiple episodes all dealing with the Skywalker family. Mark Hamill talks about how George had all kinds of ideas for sequels after the original 1977 film became a huge worldwide success. Early drafts and treatments of "STAR WARS II" in 1978 by sci-fi writer Leigh Brackett, and by Lucas himself, show that the author had no specific plan as to what direction the story would or should take. It wasn't until he codified the idea of Darth Vader as Luke's father, sometime in 1978 (which he had toyed with before in his mind, but had never set down in writing) did the Saga as we now know it take shape.

As to the 9 episode idea, this was put forward by Lucas in the days when he was not entirely certain what precise shape the sequels would take, and when he had stars in his eyes as a result of the phenomenal worldwide success of the first film. Even Gary Kurtz's outline for those fabled nine episodes are notably vague and unclear. In 1981 and 1982 Lucas condensed his ideas for those episodes into one climactic film, Revenge/Return of the Jedi, which rendered obsolete the need for more films since it tied up all loose ends regarding the lost Skywalker sister and the death of the Emperor.

[wyldpny]

This is a total guess: Is it because the Jedi returned thru Luke after they were thought to "extinct"?

The actual reason why it was changed from Revenge to Return was a studio one, not a Lucas one.
At the time when Jedi was being created there was another sci-fi movie that was also in the works. That "other" movie was going to be called The Revenge of Khan.
Each studio realizing that they could have potentially confused movie goers with two major films coming out around the same time both with Revenge in the title, each studio quickly decided to change the Revenge to something else. When the studio presented this problem to Lucas he agreed and changed the title to Return, figuring that Revenge may not have been the best choice anyway due to the reasons already mentioned. Collectors are well aware of the fact that 20th Century Fox had already produced a few advanced items including a teaser poster and a fold out promo release which were quickly pulled and presumed destroyed. Of course most collectors know that some survived. Plus some merchandising had already started to promote the new "Revenge" movie as well, like Kenners Empire Strikes Back action figures having a promo sticker on the cards announcing the new "Revenge of the Jedi" movie. . In the end, if Paramount had known that 20th Century Fox was going to change their title they could have left theirs alone.
But that is all now water under the bridge and the two new movie titles are now in the history books with of course neither of them using the word Revenge.
Of course we all know that Lucas was able to bring back and use the word Revenge in a title after all with his last film, which was the third in his "new" shortened series of six movies, with his Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith.

[wyldpny]

The story about Ladd picking Ep. IV out of a range of stories is incorrect, a sort of Hollywood myth that has no basis in actual fact.

That is untrue. There is quite a bit of documentation to that fact as well as the fact that Lucas had planned on a total of 9 movies. These facts are backed up in many early magazine and news interviews with Lucas in the late 70's and early 80's. It is true that not much of any back stories were developed at the time, and millions of fans once they had heard that nine films were planned wanted to hold Lucas to that no matter what. But all of that that doesn't change the fact that nine films was at one point the actual plan.
Even up to the making of Jedi, Lucas continued to talk about going back and making the first three and then after those were made going and making the last three. Mark Hamill has contradicted himself at times over the years as to the facts as he knows them, especially at some of the early conventions.
A few years after Jedi had been released Lucas decided he wanted to move on and do other projects and to the horror and dismay of millions of fans Lucas dismissed the idea of making any more Star Wars films. Three years after Jedi was released Lucas filmed and released Howard the Duck as an attempt to show that he could do something other than Star Wars, but that movie laid a big one and Lucas was left with egg on his face.
Some people point to Raiders of the Lost Ark as a successful Lucas non Star Wars film which was released in 1981 between Empire and Jedi. This was a character and story idea originally created by Lucas, but Lucas passed on trying to make it in favor of Star Wars. Later while talking to his friend Spielberg on a beach after Star Wars had been a huge success, they talked about other movie ideas and Lucas mentioned Raiders to Spielberg who loved the idea. Raiders would go on to be directed by Steven Spielberg, NOT by George Lucas who is credited only as executive producer since the movie was based on his original story ideas. It is important to note that the two later Star Wars films, Empire and Jedi and the Ewok stories, Lucas is also credited with only being executive producer.
A few interesting facts:
George Walton Lucas Jr. was born on May 14, 1944.
His current net worth is estimated at around three and half billion.
He divorced his wife Marcia Lucas in 1983 which many feel was a big part of the reason why fans had to wait 16 more years for the next Star Wars film to finally be made after Jedi. Marcia was a very big part of his Star Wars films, even winning an Oscar for best editing for the first film "New Hope".
After his divorce he was then in a long relationship with and actually engaged to singer Linda Ronstadt for quite awhile, though they later broke up and went their separate ways.

[Brue]

That is untrue. There is quite a bit of documentation to that fact as well as the fact that Lucas had planned on a total of 9 movies.

Absolutley true!

There is a TON of after the fact, imagined, speculation and fictionalized documention.

Actually lucas has an MS Word document that he printed off in 1974 explicitly stating ALL of the episodes in detail. I read it myself in 1973 so I know for a fact it is true.

[wyldpny]

Absolutley true!

There is a TON of after the fact, imagined, speculation and fictionalized documention.

Actually lucas has an MS Word document that he printed off in 1974 explicitly stating ALL of the episodes in detail. I read it myself in 1973 so I know for a fact it is true.

I hope you actually mean 1983 since Microsoft Word wasn't even created and released until 1983, though even at that time I don't think it was called MS Word but something more like Multiple Tools or something like that. Yes, I am a computer geek as well.

[Vortigern99]

wyldpny, I'm not disputing that Lucas at one time said he had conceived of nine movies. I'm saying he said that in the late 70s, when he was uncertain as to what precise direction the sequels would take, when the original film had been an unprecedented success, and the possibilities for sequels seemed limitless. But in the end all he had were vague notions -- no concrete plots -- about what might constitute each of these films, and rather than draw the series out for seven (or four) movies after Empire Strikes Back, he decided to take the main narrative thrust -- the Skywalkers vs. the Emperor -- and take that to its full fruition in a single climactic film, which of course was Return of the Jedi.

I still stand by my assertion that the story of Alan Ladd picking Ep. IV out of a middle of a bunch of story ideas is a myth and unsupported by any documentary evidence. Lucas has never maintained that, does not maintain that to this day, and in fact we can see from the very first story treatments, that the Hidden Fortress-like plot was in place from the very beginning.

[wyldpny]

Well, I guess you either didn't grow up in the 70's and got to read anything and everything Star Wars at the time like I and many others did, or you just didn't get into Star Wars until later when Lucas and others started to put different spins on what actually happened. I am not going to argue on what Lucas possible intentions were, I can only state that at the time when the movie was about to be made that it was stated as a fact in more than one publication that Ladd had picked out episode 4 as the one he wanted his studio to gamble on. Since I believe this still to be true, then that also tells me that Lucas had more than just a basic outline for at least 4 films, since Ladd picked the 4th one out of who knows how many others Lucas had when he shopped the film ideas around.
Lucas has said a lot of different things over the years since and he has changed a lot in his views since the first three Star Wars films. But just because he has changed what he said and thought prior and stands firm on those said thought changes now does not change or overwrite what he said before. This is the same guy remember that now has officially disowned himself from his own work and involvement with Howard the Duck. Yeah, thats a guy I am going to believe 100&#37; of what he says now over what he said, was interviewed saying and was quoted as saying back originally in the 70's.
If you don't want to believe this information is true then thats fine. I am obviously not going to change your mind if those later stories you heard are what you want to believe.
I'm just saying that some of us know better.

[SUP-Ronin]

Maybe the senility kicks in fast for his race??

Agreed "Bloody Lucas"

[wyldpny]

I found it very interesting that when AFI aired their life achievement award tribute to George Lucas in 2005, the one person who stole the show was, no not a Star Wars or other Lucas movie alumni, but Trek icon William Shatner. The Shat owned the night and showed Lucas who was who. "It's George right? You can call me Mr. Sahtner". Priceless. At the end when the Stormtroopers were carrying Shatner out, he says to Lucas, "Live long and prosper George. Well, live long but you've prospered enough".
Oh yeah, and did anyone catch Mark Hamill spending most of his time talking about having his picture on childrens underwear? LOL
Oh, and Carrie Fisher followed Hamill with almost the exact same underwear joke.
And Harrison Ford seemed actually angry and spiteful in his speech. What was up with that?
It's so nice to see that after all these years they have such great memories of being in one of the biggest motion pictures of all time and it takes a Star Trek icon to actually make the show memorable.

[Brue]

I hope you actually mean 1983 since Microsoft Word wasn't even created and released until 1983, though even at that time I don't think it was called MS Word but something more like Multiple Tools or something like that. Yes, I am a computer geek as well.

No, I meant 1974 - It is impossible - that's my point

[wyldpny]

Ok, well whatever your point was it got lost...

[Vortigern99]

wyldpny, I'm afraid you've got me pegged all wrong. I was 7 in '77 and saw the original film 7 times that year, and in '78 when it was re-released. I've been a sci-fi/genre fan almost my entire life and was deeply immersed in Starlog, Cinefantastique, and FM of Filmland from 1979 - 1987. Today, I'm a manager on the most popular STAR WARS message board on the web, at theforce.net. My thread there about Vader's Origins -- as a distinct and separate character from Anakin Skywalker -- inspired another member to create an e-book called The Secret History of Star Wars, which is a comprehensive study of every quote, article, interview and book ever published on the origins of the SW films. His findings contradict and call into question Lucasfilm's official stance on a number of questions about origins. The story about Ladd selecting the middle episode from an array of plotlines is in keeping with Lucas' assertions about having the entire story worked out for all three original films -- a single massive screenplay he later split into three -- which is patently and demonstrably untrue. Far from accepting the official statements from LFL, I challenge such falsifiable claims as utter baloney. The prequels existed as a page or two of backstory notes to support the story he wanted to write, which we now know as Ep. IV. There was nothing after it at any time until the writing of Empire Strikes Back; and there was nothing before it except, as I've said, a page or two of backstory notes. The claim about Ladd is simply wrong -- whether Lucas said it himself, or whether it was advanced by overeager copywriters for Starlog.

[wyldpny]

Well, lets see...I was 15 when Star Wars came out and saw the film so many times I literally lost count LOL
I can also claim that I have been a sci-fi fan pretty much my entire life and was deeply immersed in the same magazines and so forth. But that is true of so many others as well that we certainly can't claim that fact just for ourselves.
Anyway, as for the disagreement we have on a few historical facts, I guess we can agree that we disagree :)

[huedell]

Not that I agree with Vort on "all" of his stances wyld...but Vort knows the "deal"---and
has researched WAY beyond what a run-of-the-mill fan has---and deserves that respect..

Besides...and no offense...yeah, I can't really judge anyone to be a clear thinker
who interprets Ford's simple speech/dry humor at the AFI as seemingly "actually angry
and spiteful" Ford's speech and presentation were hilarious and in good fun---you really
have to check yourself on stuff like that. Do you actually think Ford would speak
in front of that crowd---and his "constant collaborators" (specifically Lucas & Speilberg)
with anything except appreciation?

Oh yes...and call me when Lucas (or Ford etc.) appears at a tribute for Shatner and
speaks in tribute ;)

[wyldpny]

I give anyone the benefit of the doubt to a point. I don't know him and he doesn't know me. And who are you to say that I also don't deserve respect as well? Do you know me? Obviously not. And where did I ever say I was just a run of the mill fan?

As for Harrison Ford and his speech, I was being sarcastic just as he was. You didn't think his comment about Sean Connery was a funny sarcastic comment?
And if any Star Wars cast members are ever at a Shatner tribute, I hope they can handle it as well as the Shat did :)

[huedell]

Apologies if I'm out of line wyld but you saying that you've been immersed
in sci-fi magazines didn't come of as much more than your prototypical
sci-fi fan---

----add to that that Vort has written an entire book on the subject
that reads very professionally (altho' I admittedly haven't read the whole of it)
and the whole scenario left me to jump to a certain conclusion about your
level of knowledge regarding these issues---so, again, apologies
if I'm offbase---and, well, there's always an opportunity for you to shed more
light on your background if you'd like.

And if your post points regarding the AFI speech(es) were made in good fun and
in good humor as Ford's speech was (as you described your post)---well, I totally missed
that (and after re-reading your post I still do)---so, I'll take your clarification under
advisement as it pertains to me missing that aspect.

And Shatner opening the show was quite cool. One thing I'll give Shat--- is he's a
powerful showman---Hamill's a great ham too---just doesn't have the charisma
(too bad Hamill can't get a charisma transplant from Ford!)

[Vortigern99]

We all deserve respect! I didn't mean to imply otherwise, and I'm certain Huedell didn't either. And for the record, wyldpny, I was only offering my credentials as a genre fan in order to counter your earlier-stated opinion that I didn't grow up in the 70s or read the same fan mags and so forth. I didn't mean to come across as though I were boasting about it, but merely stating the facts. But Huedell is correct insofar as I have researched beyond what the average fan has done with regard to the origins of STAR WARS. There are reams of interviews with Lucas from the 70s in which he contradicts reams of recent interviews. For the most part I tend to take Lucas' earlier statements as more accurate -- not to say he's now "lying", but perhaps misremembering or stating things as he would have liked them to be. With regard to the Ladd story, it simply doesn't match up with the documentary evidence (the rough drafts, notes and treatments of the original film, which were stolen in the late 70s and are now posted on-line for all to read, OR available in summary in the Lucas-published Annotated Screenplays), nor does it match up with many other statements Lucas has made over the years about the prequels only existing as rough backstory and his desire to start the series in the middle of the story, as though one were watching a middle episode of the old Republic serials without having seen the previous episodes. I suspect the Ladd story was made in error by an overeager copy-writer at Starlog, because it has never appeared in any other form and does not match the data we have on that score.

[wyldpny]

Perhaps I assumed too much about you as well.
And I am well aware of most of the things you stated.
I'm sure that you are well aware that there are those who question the "stolen" documents story and feel it was more of an interesting way for Lucas to possibly leak what he wanted people to see at the time. Remember that 20th Century Fox, Lucas and his crew even back in 1977 did one of the better jobs in keeping things secret and not having leaks or "break-ins" which is why many think it was leaked on purpose. Personally I have no idea myself, but in the end I really don't feel whether they were truly stolen or leaked on purpose that it effects the things I believe are true and those I feel are not.
As for the Ladd situation, as I said earlier, on some things we can agree to disagree :wink:

[Vortigern99]

That's interesting about the possible shady origins of the early drafts. I've never heard or read anything about their being called into question. If they are forgeries of some kind they are incredibly convincing, but for two reasons I'm disinclined to believe they are anything other than wholly authentic:

1. The early drafts match up exactly with the Lucasbooks-published summary book, The Annotated Screenplays, first published in 1997. This shows that no outside agent could have forged the drafts and treatments in the late 70s. (I realize you're saying that Lucas himself might have released the scripts, but bear with me here.)

2. The early drafts show that Luke's father was originally, and throughout the various drafts, a distinct and separate character from Darth Vader, existing in the same timeframe. This directly contradicts Lucas' claims that he "always envisioned Vader and Anakin as one character".

If Lucas had intentionally released the early drafts, he would have been shooting himself in the foot since they disprove on of his most cherished statements as to the origins of STAR WARS. It doesn't make sense for him to say one thing -- Vader and Anakin have always been the same -- and then secretly release these supposedly forged documents which actually contest this statement.