Flashpoint #5 question

[johnnystorm]

I have a question concerning the outcome of Flashpoint #5.

Avoiding spoilers, for those who haven't read it: the time triggering event occurred roughly 20-25 years ago given the newer "younger" DCU heroes.

So how does that affect the WW2 history of the JSA, Frankenstein, and the Nazis getting South America? Wouldn't history remain the same UP TO the change point (sometime in the late 1980s or early 90s)? Obviously things and people like the Civil War, WW2, Washington, Lincoln, & others "took place". So how could time be altered both forward AND backward?

[The Toyroom]

The Nazis got South America? Now that's just stupid....

[samurainoir]

That's pretty much how this entire back to the future plot gets muddled... When they throw in this bit setting up the next big crossover with the hooded woman that guides Barry and somehow he causes the DCU, Vertigo and Wildstorm to merge, because at some point in the "past" they were separated and now combined once again in order to battle sow mystery future threat.

[The Toyroom]

Someone check the Anti Monitor's appointment book.... :muh:

[johnnystorm]

PLEASE don't tell me the "mystery woman" is Harbinger!

[ctc]

>PLEASE don't tell me the "mystery woman" is Harbinger!

Have they redone them books from the early 00's, where they used the name of an established character but applied it to someone completely different? 'Cos that series' version of "Green Lantern" was a mysterious, Harbinger type.

Don C.

[The Bat]

This just another "Comic Event" like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, etc...what can be done, can be undone. So I say just go with the flow.:wink: If you or any other DC fans don't like it...just wait 2 years and there will be another Major Crisis.:grin::smiley1:

[samurainoir]

PLEASE don't tell me the "mystery woman" is Harbinger!

That was what my thought is. You can spot her in the stands at Vic's ball game. Basically she's the Waldo of the new DC 52 launch, appearing somewhere in each of the new books. Apparently, even the artists on many of these books are not aware of her because she was drawn in after the fact.

[The Toyroom]

>PLEASE don't tell me the "mystery woman" is Harbinger!

Have they redone them books from the early 00's, where they used the name of an established character but applied it to someone completely different? 'Cos that series' version of "Green Lantern" was a mysterious, Harbinger type.

Don C.

Tangent... The Tangent universe was shown to be one of the 52 earths during Infinite Crisis. The Green Lantern of the universe was killed apparently and her lantern was shown washed up on the shore of some beach where two young kids found it...

[knight errant00]

> Have they redone them books from the early 00's, where they used the name of an established character but applied it to someone completely different? 'Cos that series' version of "Green Lantern" was a mysterious, Harbinger type.Don C.

That something else I've been thinking for a while, especially since this is possibly not a reboot but another parallel world -- why not REALLY go all in on this and create new versions of the characters, completely unfettered by past continuity? The way Julie Swartz & co. did in the Silver Age when they introduced new versions of Flash, GL, the Atom, etc. or the way Stan Lee leveraged the Human Torch and Daredevil? Give us really fresh, new versions of the characters, rather than warmed over versions that seem more like a reboot, making something like the Tangent universe the main universe.

They could have made a Green Lantern as different from Hal Jordan as Hal is from Alan Scott, or a Hawkman as similar and yet so differently grounded as the Golden Age vs. Silver Age versions. And if you've got a character who works (like the way they don want o mess with Johns' GL)? Both Marvel and DC brought Golden Age characters like Superman, Batman, Captain America, and the Sub-Mariner right into the then-modern continuity pretty much as-is. And this would be a great way to integrate some of the diversity they keep trying to shoehorn into the books now.

An approach like that would have been exciting, and I could've gotten behind at least as an attempt to do something really new with the characters.

[ShadowAvenger]

I have a question concerning the outcome of Flashpoint #5.

Avoiding spoilers, for those who haven't read it: the time triggering event occurred roughly 20-25 years ago given the newer "younger" DCU heroes.

So how does that affect the WW2 history of the JSA, Frankenstein, and the Nazis getting South America? Wouldn't history remain the same UP TO the change point (sometime in the late 1980s or early 90s)? Obviously things and people like the Civil War, WW2, Washington, Lincoln, & others "took place". So how could time be altered both forward AND backward?

Time was shattered like a bullet through a windshield and the effects spread forward and backward. It was a stretch but makes just as much sense as everything else in the series.

[jwyblejr]

This just another "Comic Event" like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, etc...what can be done, can be undone. So I say just go with the flow.:wink: If you or any other DC fans don't like it...just wait 2 years and there will be another Major Crisis.:grin::smiley1:

I'm waiting for Mid-Life Crisis myself.

[The Bat]

I'm waiting for Mid-Life Crisis myself.

:smiley1::rotfl:

[ctc]

>why not REALLY go all in on this and create new versions of the characters

I think that's what "Elseworlds," "Tangents" and the like were supposed to be. I think the biggest problems with actually changing stuff is that:

-it'd be a nightmare for the marketing department. "Whaddya mean Bruce Wayne has a giant robot now?!?! In the next movie he fights the Penguin again!"

-it'd be a nightmare for the editorial department who seem to still pay lip service to the oldster continuity, and have probably already mapped out next years big reboot. "Whaddya mean there's ANOTHER Batman now....AND he's got a giant robot? Where the hell do we fit THAT in?

Don C.

[Random Axe]

I haven't followed this at all except what's posted here, but I noticed something interesting a while back in a Legion of Superheroes book. I don't remember the circumstances, but someone was experimenting with looking back in time to the beginning of creation, much like Krona. One of the characters mentioned they could go back and see what happened at Flashpoint.

They actually knew an event occurred. Since it was spoken of in the past tense, like it was a passing event, it leads me to believe it's temporary. I dunno, I hate time travel stories and timeline shifts, so many variables to play with and too many "outs" for the writers to come up with half-worked plots they can easily change.

I see this entire relaunch as an experiment to see what sticks. I doubt any of these titles will go past twelve issues and I doubt they are plotted any further than that at this point. These new sales figures and fan response will determine what they do going forward when the universe we've read for the last couple of decades returns. They'll simply jettison the junk and incorporate their findings into the universe they left behind.

Of course I'm probably wrong and this is permanent. At least I have back issues and trades...

[Bruce Banner]

As many do, I consider the reboot a bad idea overall. Change for the sake of change. Doing away with many decades' worth of continuity in one fell swoop.

But I'll pick up a few issues of the flagship titles and give it all the benefit of the doubt.

The first issue of the new JLA was interesting, but we'll have to see how it goes. But whatever the case... to me, this will always be the JLA:

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/b/bc/Justice_League_of_America_(Earth-One)_FOUNDERS.jpg

[Bruce Banner]

edit: removed double post.

[Bruce Banner]

Of course I'm probably wrong and this is permanent. At least I have back issues and trades...


True. In fact I just re-read my old copy of JLA issue 200 again.
We'll always have those.

[The Toyroom]

But whatever the case... to me, this will always be the JLA:

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/b/bc/Justice_League_of_America_(Earth-One)_FOUNDERS.jpg

Me too...Look how classic those costumes look. And not a high collar, armor or Cyborg in sight... :please_y:

[The Bat]

Geoff Johns and Jim Lee says this new Universe is permanent. And sales numbers aren't exactly hurting them. JLA is already going into a 3rd printing, Flash Point #5 a 2nd printing...and comics that haven't even hit comic shops are already going into 2nd printings(Batgirl, Action Comics). It's really early in the game, but so far it's a success.

DC #1 Hits 200,000 In Pre-Sales - Comic Vine (http://www.comicvine.com/news/dcs-justice-league-1-hits-200000-in-pre-sales/143499/?page=3&sort=first)

[The Bat]

Me too...Look how classic those costumes look. And not a high collar, armor or Cyborg in sight... :please_y:

I don't care for Cyborg being in the new JLA:yuk:...but I don't miss the Martain Man being there either.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Yeah but 200,000 is what ROM the Space Knight was selling when it was canceled in 1986.

Chris

[The Bat]

Yeah but 200,000 is what ROM the Space Knight was selling when it was canceled in 1986.

Chris

But as I'm sure you're aware Chris...Comics haven't done those kind of numbers in quite some time.:no: Comics sales were great in the 90's...but it's been awhile since we have seen anything like that.:please_y:

[thunderbolt]

Geoff Johns and Jim Lee says this new Universe is permanent. And sales numbers aren't exactly hurting them. JLA is already going into a 3rd printing, Flash Point #5 a 2nd printing...and comics that haven't even hit comic shops are already going into 2nd printings(Batgirl, Action Comics). It's really early in the game, but so far it's a success.

DC #1 Hits 200,000 In Pre-Sales - Comic Vine (http://www.comicvine.com/news/dcs-justice-league-1-hits-200000-in-pre-sales/143499/?page=3&sort=first)

It'll be as permanent as anything when the sales are there, when the hype dies off and the numbers fall back to what they were or lower, it will get rebooted again, or eventually put out to pasture. This feels a lot like a Hail Mary from DC. Wait'll Jim Lee falls behind or leaves to design video games or play them or whatever he does to miss deadlines the JLA numbers will drop.

[The Bat]

It'll be as permanent as anything when the sales are there, when the hype dies off and the numbers fall back to what they were or lower, it will get rebooted again, or eventually put out to pasture. This feels a lot like a Hail Mary from DC. Wait'll Jim Lee falls behind or leaves to design video games or play them or whatever he does to miss deadlines the JLA numbers will drop.

I don't disagree with ya...changed is the one constant in the Universe(especially the DC Universe).:wink: I don't expect that Jim will do more then 12 issues before he turns the reins over to another artist. Jim Lee never use to have a problem with keeping up with deadlines until he started running Image....and now with his new duties at DC, he's doing it again. I have no doubt he won't be able to sustain that for very long.:no:

[ctc]

>Comics haven't done those kind of numbers in quite some time

Stupid Comics (http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/stupidcomics86.html)

Don C.

[Earth 2 Chris]

But as I'm sure you're aware Chris...Comics haven't done those kind of numbers in quite some time. Comics sales were great in the 90's...but it's been awhile since we have seen anything like that.

Yeah, that was my point. These are good numbers, for today's market. But it just shows how much the American comic audience has dwindled in the last 25 years. It will be interesting to see how many new readers DC holds onto with this.

Chris

[samurainoir]

>Comics haven't done those kind of numbers in quite some time

Stupid Comics (http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/stupidcomics86.html)

Don C.

That's actually really interesting data... You can totally see why they abandoned the news stands in favor of the direct market. Particularly with the rising costs of paper and printing (and the reason why print will ultimately give way to digital... With the print version being produced simply as collectible object in very limited quantities with a premium. Probably on a print to order basis).

They print 713,000. Sell 379,000. And ultimately eat the cost of 333,000. Only 235 subscriptions? Was that even worth the effort? Did it just give something for the secretary to do? (Jim shooter recently told the story on his blog about how the secretary stole all the subs cash that came in)

This would not be economically possible now without an absolutely ridiculous cover price. The 200,000 copies of Justice League they are selling is all profit with no risk or loss. Although the economics of scale applies to their mid-list titles selling at around 30,000 currently.

It would be very interesting to see Archie's numbers via newsstand/grocery store sales vs returns. Although I'd guess the reprints in the digests is what might help make the numbers work without the additional production costs?

[The Toyroom]

Well this was a success at my LCS...not an issue of Flashpoint #5 or Justice League #1 to be found...Of course they never order large numbers anyway...I'm actually thinking about switching to online ordering....I just feel bad cause I've been a loyal customer for years.

[VintageMike]

Upward movement is good. The trend in comics is basically the trend everywhere as entertainment options have grown considerably. You had v shows doing much bigger numbers in the past for instance. Why? Not just the quality because there were only a few channels to chose from. Even when cable started it was secondary. Today there are a ridiculous number of channels/choices so the audience is fragmented. Also comcis were the only portable kids entertainment back then. Had to get in the car for a trip? You had comics to keep you entertained or nothing. Today you'be got portable video game systems, Ipods, laptops and even smartphones. Not to mention dvd players in certain vehicles.

[boynightwing]

The comic store where I lived only ordered 25 copies of Justice League. I think he still has some left. He had over a dozen when I came in.

Why don't they put comics back in to grocery stores? That's how I got them when I was young. I see them at Chapters now and there is a little book store near my cottage that has about a dozen titles. I've seen them at Zellers but they want too much per issue.

[ctc]

>You can totally see why they abandoned the news stands in favor of the direct market.

'specially since there seems to have been a dip in the early 80's. I suspect the comic shops seemed like a safe haven then.

>This would not be economically possible now without an absolutely ridiculous cover price.

....and/or a few other changes, like lower grade printing.

>It would be very interesting to see Archie's numbers via newsstand/grocery store sales vs returns.

The last few I saw (from a year or so back) has a print run at around 190,000 with circulated copies around 80,000 for most of them, but (like the gap between DC's top and mid sellers) the better selling issues seem to get to around 130,000 circulated.

>I'd guess the reprints in the digests is what might help make the numbers work without the additional production costs?

I'd agree; especially when you think how much more money goes to talent these days. It costs them next to nothing to reprint and old Archie story, and each digest usually only has one or two new stories.... although it's almost surprising that they bother with new ones in the digests. I got no idea on how the current surreal "Life With Archie" is doing.

Don C.

[samurainoir]

In the early eighties, I wad the only kid i knew of who still spent his allowance on comics... My friends were all feeding the video game machines at Beckers (where I was buying comics), and saving up for game cartridges.

The real surprising move, and probably most Telling about the sales and PR they have received with Married Life with Archie is the fact that they have launched it as the headliner to their larger magazine format. Whether this model holds or not will be interesting to observe, since in the past decade we've seen Vampirella, kiss, too much coffee man, and ultimate spiderman come and go with attempts at marrying slick glossy magazines with articles to comics.

Clint is the latest attempt aimed a young men, and serializing Kick *** and the other Millarworld titles. I actually have more faith in Archie... Using the tried and true celebrity gossip and fashion tips that dominates the Checkout lines of grocery stores and drug marts.

It would also be interesting to see if Archie pays royalties or not these days... Particularly after the PR disaster behind Don Decarlo's firing. The man who is arguably Archie's "jack Kirby"... If not moreso given that up to a few years ago, everything had to look like deCarlo drew it.

[thunderbolt]

Archie comics are at Dollar General now in old school 3 packs for 2 bucks. THAT is the way to get new people into comics.

[The Toyroom]

^ I've been digging me some Archie lately...I'll have to check out DG....

[thunderbolt]

I saw it on the magazine rack inside the store. It was a DG Marketplace.

[ctc]

>In the early eighties, I wad the only kid i knew of who still spent his allowance on comics...

Around here EVERYONE my age was buying comics, but I was the only one who frequented the comic shops. (Couldn't get Grimjack anywhere else....)

>I actually have more faith in Archie... Using the tried and true celebrity gossip and fashion tips that dominates the Checkout lines of grocery stores and drug marts.

Yeah.... with the more nerdly books it's tough to find articles to pad out the mag. 'Specially since any new info on the latest science-fictiony/fantasy/superhero/toy/game/whatnot will make it to the proverbial "alt.nerd.obsessive" WAY before a mag comes out.

>It would also be interesting to see if Archie pays royalties or not these days... Particularly after the PR disaster behind Don Decarlo's firing.

It would.... I dunno if the PR thing was THAT big a deal for them; sure, it had the comic crowd up in arms, but Archie's audience isn't really the comic crowd.

>The man who is arguably Archie's "jack Kirby"... If not moreso given that up to a few years ago, everything had to look like deCarlo drew it.

Hell; he was doing half the Archie-esque ripoffs too!

One other weird thing I was thinkin' that Archie did is how flexible their publishing policy has been. They've maintained the newsrack distirbution lines from the old "mainstream" days; BUT they ALSO work like the old "independants" in that they maintain back issues, and handle other marketing in house and with (at least limited) direct to customer sales. It hasn't been "all or nothing" with them like the Big Two and a Half.

Don C.