Barnes and Noble - your neighbourhood comic shop?

[samurainoir]

Barnes Bleeding Cool Comic Book, Movies and TV News and Rumors (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/04/26/barnes-noble-to-become-the-destination-for-comic-lovers/)

This will certainly be an interesting experiment in light of the repercussions that the Borders bankrupcy is having on the comics industry.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Anything that gets comics out to the masses is a good thing.

In my estimation, DC and Marvel REALLY screwed up when they abandoned the newstand market in the 80s.

Chris

[The Toyroom]

Anything that gets comics out to the masses is a good thing.

In my estimation, DC and Marvel REALLY screwed up when they abandoned the newstand market in the 80s.

Chris

Tell me about it...have to drive 25 minutes to pick up a comic at the LCS...will be the same distance if Barnes & Noble carried anything decent.

Of course I can't even think of an actual newstand in my hometown anymore...apparently people don't read....?

[samurainoir]

Given that they are utilizing Diamond, hopefully that means non-returnable product. Marvel and DC are big enough to weather the massive amount of trade paperback/graphic novel returns that will result from Borders, but we've seen in the past smaller companies finding really hard times in similar circumstances.

[ScottA]

Our B&N closed months ago.

[thunderbolt]

Both B&N's in Polk County closed years ago, so this will do me no good. If Diamond or Marvel or whoever wants to get comics to kids, drop the prices and get them into 7-11 and Wal-Mart, and get them to download cheaper than print. Its really a simple solution to the problem.

[jwyblejr]

The Barnes & Noble in Huntsville moved. I think I'll stick to Books A Million.

[CaptainTrenchcoat]

My gf works as the receiving manager at the local B&N. I will ask her about it. My concern is that they are required to put the security labels on 100% of the graphic novels. Hopefully they won't do that with the actual comics. Otherwise, the collectibility goes out the window.

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

I dunno; I've been picking up my comics at Chapters for almost 10 years now, so this seems like a no-brainer. 'Course, I think it'll continue the circle of comic life. Marvel, DC and sometimes Image have taken a back seat for a while now, since a lot of their old fans have moved on and the kids prefer Japanese stuff. But the kids, looking for something new and different will be exposed to the superhero monthlies now. (Since most of them probably get their stuff at Chapters or the equivalent too.) "Hey! There's a Batman COMIC too? I thought it was just a movie. Neat!"

>drop the prices and get them into 7-11 and Wal-Mart

Oh yeah! Unfortunately the push for bigger and better; both in terms of celebrity writing, high quality art and advanced printing priced them WAY out of competitiveness. You couldn't keep the "talent" AND lower the price, unless you can greatly increase sales, which won't happen if you can't lower the price.... And the old fans are pretty spoiled: they'll notice (and blog) if you lower print quality, or colour process. And don't even THINK about balck and white....

>and get them to download cheaper than print

That's where it's going; but you've got a lot of diehards who HATE digital comics. (Old fogeys!) And Marvel, DC and sometimes Image are still catering to the comic shop crowd. (Old fogeys!) Even if digital sales went up, they'd get a lot of negative feedback; which means a lot to a company; especially in this day of instant rating. If they get that wave of newer fans I mentioned earlier, this won't be a problem.

Don C.

[thunderbolt]

^^ Any downloads I've looked ar are right around the same price as a hard copy, not cheaper. Same goes for new release CD's lately.

[ctc]

>Any downloads I've looked ar are right around the same price as a hard copy, not cheaper.

THAT'S a problem too! I saw Marvel ones going for $3, whereas the comics are what; $4? Not muich of a savings, even though the company isn't paying for printing or shipping; beyond bandwidth. I suspect that's 'cos the market is still comparably small, and their expenses are still pretty big; so they're unwilling to make the cut. Realisticly, they'll keep the price high until inflation raises the price of a regular book to a point where this looks like a bargain.

Don C.

[madmarva]

Serious comic collectors and readers are always going to pick a comic shop/subscription service over another type of store to buys comics, if all things are even, but getting comics out in other venues can only help sow the seeds for new readers, which is what the industry and the hobby needs.

The reason the darn things cost so much isn't only the paper or high-dollar talent but also the low sales. Production costs will always be there. Increasing sales is the way to increase profits. Higher sales not only bring in more cash but it would generate more advertisers for the companies and increased ad rates. Increasing the volume in sales is the only way the companies will ever be able to reduce prices for much time at all.

DC and Marvel and comic shop owners and even readers and collectors should do everything they can to get comics into the hands of potential readers, particularly the young.

I doubt I'd be a comic reader today, if I hadn't got hooked on them young. If I would have been as a teen or older, I think I would have dropped out by now.

So I think it's great for B&N to pick comics up. If they do well there, maybe Wal-Mart and Target will respond. For better or worse, more shoppers (potential readers) walk through Wal-Mart's aisles than any place else. If I were DC and Marvel, I'd do everything I could to get my product in their stores.

[ctc]

>Serious comic collectors and readers are always going to pick a comic shop/subscription service over another type of store to buys comics,

....which I think has been the big problem for the big Two and a Half. They worried too much about shoring up distribution back in the 80's and 90's, and hanging on to their established base rather thyan bringing in a new one. Half of the comic shop crowd were speculators anyhoo, and booked when prices crashed. Then they got swooped by the Jump stuff 'cos it was available everywhere and sold for a lot less. Once THAT took off, the independants moved in with their GN and compilations, since regualr book stores who wouldn't touch a 24 page comic were okay with anything that looked like a phone book.

>Increasing the volume in sales is the only way the companies will ever be able to reduce prices for much time at all.

That's true, but the 90's saw the advent of the designer comic, and correspondingly increased costs for the big names. That hurt the bottom line, especially when sales slumped. Same with the super-mondo-chocolatey printing of the 80's. They came up against maximalization: they HAD to shell out the bucks for slick production, or the established fans would cry foul. But doing so raised prices, and became deadly when readership dropped.

I'm kinda surprised Marvel and DC HAVEN'T been pushing for this sort of thing. I think one problem they'll have.... at first anyhoo.... is that they're still catering to the comic shop crowd. So you get books that have stories and characters with appeal to long time fans, but not so much for new ones. And the problem that you can't just go back and buy the preceeding issues you missed so's to get caught up. I can't help but wonder if the rash of anual non-events is their answer to this: by setting up benchmarks that are easily collected into GN form you give new readers a jumping in point. Except that you LOSE them next year when you do the same and effectively rewrite the universe.

Don C.

[MIB41]

Glad to see them trying to broaden the scope of comics once more. But, like anything, the success of this venture will lie solely on how well they stock titles. Comic shops tend to do a better job of meeting consumer demand when big issues come out. A book store isn't going to have that kind of connection with a comic collector. So chances are good a lot of popular titles will sell out quickly, thus leaving the consumer to return back to the tried and true comic shop. I think that was the primary reason why comic shops became all the rage to begin with - availability of titles.

[samurainoir]

As someone pointed out earlier... What News Stands? Other than Archie and Mad, Comics didn't leave the New Stands, quite the reverse. And just look at all the attempts various comics companies, including DC and Marvel have made to attempt to return to the magazine racks with varying degrees of success.

Check out how print sales and volatile the magazine business is these days. As much as the direct market is a problem in a great number of respects, it is also a relatively stable and gamble free proposition compared to the magazine biz where returns will just kill you. Non returnable allows them as close to a print to order system as they can manage. This gives them a base of profit and sales that allows them to take more calculated gambles on the shelf life of a collected edition (but again, bookstore returns can come back and bite you vs the non returnable nature of trades and hardbacks in the direct market).

The current problem with the direct market is the fallout from the nineties comics wars... the system is now dependent on a single distributor as opposed to multiple competing distribution companies. As we've seen... when that one distributor gets hit, all your eggs are in one basket. The Borders returns are going to be brutal for the small press comics.

As sad as it is for us old fogies, digital is the future inside of the next decade or so. The world is changing and we can't set the time machine to go back to the 70's when we bought our comics from drugstores and the convenience marts and such.

[thunderbolt]

^^^ Then Diamond needs to reach out beyond the direct market to new outlets if they are the only distributor. They also need to get the big 3 or 4 publishers to do some reprints or new stuff and a deeper discount to get hinders in the seats. Get spinner racks back in 7-11's full of one or two buck kid friendly material and they will be pulling in future audiences.

[johnmiic]

If B&N is getting into carrying current comic titles -then it is because they want to put your local comic shops out of business. Support your local shops and avoid B&N at all costs.

When I worked for B&N in 1990 they were poised to launch their "Superstores". The point of their superstores was to put the competition out of business. If they could carry nearly everything in print in each of these stores-no one else could compete with them. Many other smaller & family owned bookstores went out of business in NY when the B&N Superstore came into vogue, (Eeyore's, Tower Books, Colliseum Books, B. Dalton-which they bought out, Ruby's Books to name a few I can remember). Only Shakespeare & Co. remain as a competing chain of bookstores here in NY, (and that's because the customers at S&Co. are snobs and loathe` B&N). The movie You've Got Mail (1998), uses this point as part of its story. Tom Hanks is a stand in for the Riggio Bros. who own the B&N franchise.

[kingdom warrior]

If Diamond or Marvel or whoever wants to get comics to kids, drop the prices and get them into 7-11 and Wal-Mart, and get them to download cheaper than print. Its really a simple solution to the problem.

Great Idea, but when you're a bunch of greedy SOB's like Marvel and DC who only look at the dollar sign.......that's never going to happen.

[VintageMike]

I'm favor for two reasons. One, in the big picture it will hopefully mean more comics sold overall. Secondly while I will always support a shop first, I've had to change shops twice in the last year and a half as two closed. While I know of more it's always nice to have another option of where to get my comics.

[samurainoir]

Here's the thing I think most people are not grasping... comics are actually MORE accessible with a ridiculous amount of material kept in print, than any other time in North America history.

If a kid wants comics, it's not necessarily the 7-11, drugstore or newstand... pretty much most bookstores these days have a graphic novel section, and the big superstore ones have more than one... with specific Graphic Novel sections in both the kids and teens sections as well as the big one for the grown ups.

I wish I could go back and time and kidnap my 8 year old self and plunk him into a contemporary Chapters/Indigo or Barnes and Noble. Those shelves are monoliths of comics reading compared to the puny spinner rack of the 70's.

Not that that in itself doesn't have risks as well... bookstore returns might even be riskier than newstand returns. Diamond started distributing to the bookstore market on a returnable basis a few years ago... and the Borders situation is not pretty.

Whatever direction this goes, just keep in mind that these days traditional print is potentially a huge pitfall. And it won't be the monoliths like DC or Marvel that could suffer the most. They are essentially reduced to R&D for their licensing and feature film/television divisions... that's where the real profits are, not the floppy colourful pamphlets. The big two aren't primarily interested in selling comics anymore... they are selling bedsheets and sneakers and movies.

[thunderbolt]

^^ Yeah, but DC and Marvel need that gateway drug to keep more people like us flowing. A parent isn't going to buy a 3.99 comic for a kid that is as thin as a dime and not to mention part 16 of 82 of some idiot storyline. Now a parent might buy 3 or 4 dollar comics for that kid. Of course, I'm assuming that DC and Marvel want to keep the floppy comic, they might not give a damn about it and go to all trades. They are probably easier to distribute and book sellers are more likely to carry them. When the floppies go, so does the LCS.

[samurainoir]

The best way to get a kid to read a comic these days? Install any of the ridiculous amount of comic apps on their iphone/ipad... particularly ones with free content.

I'm suspecting that this discussion is centred around trying to preserve the old paradigm of superhero print comics we grew up with rather than promote the broader scope of "comics" themselves.

Witness the Scott Pilgrim launch party on Toronto's Markham Street last year (outside one of the most innovative comic stores ever, The Beguiling)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIpxJH61cB4

The participants were mostly in their teens and twenties, and numbered in FOUR DIGITS! When was the last time a Marvel or DC event sparked that kind of excitement?

Kids are reading comics, but it's just not necessarily Dad's comics.

Scott Pilgrim is six original graphic novels in "manga" format, 168 pages and sells for about ten bucks a pop. With a readership comprised of kids, teens, twenty-somethings and older hipsters, Male AND FEMALE, this is as broad an audience as you can hit with comics.

And Bone is also a runaway success in this regard as well now that the colour scholastic editions are pretty much everywhere (including the school book club).

[thunderbolt]

yeah, and Scott Pilgrim did great at the box office.

[samurainoir]

yeah, and Scott Pilgrim did great at the box office.

That's not really the point of this discussion though is it?

Here's the "Box Office" for the graphic novel in August of last year. If that isn't a huge sub-thirty demographic audience for print, I don't know what is...

http://geeksyndicate.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/scott-pilgrim.jpg?w=640&h=435

Scott Pilgrim dominates Diamond sales - Comics News - Digital Spy (http://www.digitalspy.ca/comics/news/a276115/scott-pilgrim-dominates-diamond-sales.html)

Scott Pilgrim Tops the Sales Charts (http://geeksyndicate.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/scott-pilgrim-tops-the-sales-charts/)

http://geeksyndicate.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/scott-pilgrim.jpg

The Point: "Kids don't read comics anymore" and "we need to get more kids reading comics" isn't what most people are actually expressing here. I think it's a pretty safe bet that "comics" will be around in some form or another for quite some time. It just might not be the comics we remember so fondly from our own childhoods.

Anyone who says there are no outlets or material for kids to experience comics and get into them just don't have their eyes open to the amount of material that is actually available.

[thunderbolt]

OK, so kids are reading one comic, and it tanked as a movie. I stand corrected. :grin:

[Janson]

Why would you use BnN as a comic shop if you have a local one is beyond me? BnN 10% off coupons, pfft, any LCS would gladly match match the discount. Their are alot of Comics that are really good out there that the big 2 don't publish and would not see the light of day if they didn't sell in LCS's first. Scott Pilgrim would never be carried in BnN unless Diamond sales in smaller shops didn't show how popular it was.

Walmart will win the retail wars by 2030 but I guess everyone just wants to shop there anyway.

[ctc]

>so kids are reading one comic, and it tanked as a movie

They're reading a lot more than one. Who do you think bought 50 volumes of Naruto? (And counting....)

Don C.

[Janson]

If Barnes and Noble becomes the destination for comics kiss the genre good-bye, its over Johnny.

Look what we did to the Music industry, goodbye to any semblance of art form.

[ctc]

>If Barnes and Noble becomes the destination for comics kiss the genre good-bye, its over Johnny.

I disagree. Comics moving OUT of the comic shops and into the bookstores 10 years ago was the best thing that happened to them in a LONG time. You can get a much wider variety of material now; as opposed to the 90's when it was either Image, or an Image ripoff. Even for the Big Two and a Half; you can get compilations of comics from a fifty year span, anything you want. Don't like the new stuff from DC? Pick up them Showcase collections. Hell; I'm not even a superhero fan, and I've read the first hundred issues of Fantastic Four, Spiderman, The Avengers, Teen Titans.... just 'cos they're cheap and readily available. That wouldn't have been feasable for me AT ALL before comics moved to the bookstores. It's a boom-time for casual readers, the curious, and those not willing to sink hundreds of dollars into reading copies of the classics. And THAT'S what pulls in new fans, the ability to try stuff, without shelling out $5 for 22 pages of story based on some obscure nerdly bit from 20 years back. ("Wait.... Humbug is actually.... UNCLE BEN?!?!?")

>Look what we did to the Music industry, goodbye to any semblance of art form.

Music is kind of an odd one; but even then, it's not completely bleak. CD sales have been up for a while; not for the big companies, but for the "small press" stuff. (File sharing back in the 90's hit the biggies hard, but the networks and means established allowed smaller bands more acces to audiences.) And the big chains have started noticing. I can get stuff like the Creepshow, or The Matadors at HMV. Lots of the older stuff has been reissued on disk as of late too; allowing me to finish off my sets of groups like the Monks (including a recent issue of their never released third album) or BOC.... often including songs that had never been available before.

Don C.

[Janson]

>If Barnes and Noble becomes the destination for comics kiss the genre good-bye, its over Johnny.

I disagree. Comics moving OUT of the comic shops and into the bookstores 10 years ago was the best thing that happened to them in a LONG time. You can get a much wider variety of material now; as opposed to the 90's when it was either Image, or an Image ripoff. Even for the Big Two and a Half; you can get compilations of comics from a fifty year span, anything you want. Don't like the new stuff from DC? Pick up them Showcase collections. Hell; I'm not even a superhero fan, and I've read the first hundred issues of Fantastic Four, Spiderman, The Avengers, Teen Titans.... just 'cos they're cheap and readily available. That wouldn't have been feasable for me AT ALL before comics moved to the bookstores. It's a boom-time for casual readers, the curious, and those not willing to sink hundreds of dollars into reading copies of the classics. And THAT'S what pulls in new fans, the ability to try stuff, without shelling out $5 for 22 pages of story based on some obscure nerdly bit from 20 years back. ("Wait.... Humbug is actually.... UNCLE BEN?!?!?")

>Look what we did to the Music industry, goodbye to any semblance of art form.


Music is kind of an odd one; but even then, it's not completely bleak. CD sales have been up for a while; not for the big companies, but for the "small press" stuff. (File sharing back in the 90's hit the biggies hard, but the networks and means established allowed smaller bands more acces to audiences.) And the big chains have started noticing. I can get stuff like the Creepshow, or The Matadors at HMV. Lots of the older stuff has been reissued on disk as of late too; allowing me to finish off my sets of groups like the Monks (including a recent issue of their never released third album) or BOC.... often including songs that had never been available before.

Don C.

I gotta respectfully disagree. I don't understand the correlation of bookstores as the ones we should thank for cheap reprints of material from 50 years ago. That really is just a natural progression of publishing existing material in any format. Marvel and DC have been reprinting their books since the get go.
I'm glad that already published books are more readily available today no doubt, but good luck getting any new stories once the comic shops are gone. Like the LCS or not its THE vital part of the industry today and without them as a "proving grounds" for independent books, you don't have half the material of the last 40 years plus and now half the damn movies in Hollywood.
I'm just telling it like it is, you don't support your small comic shop your really not supporting comics. And yes I'm the jerk that will be telling everyone told you so.:sarky:
By the way don't go to your Local Comic Shop for Free Comic Book Day next week, go to Barnes and Noble and see what happens.
Michael Kormanik

[ctc]

>Marvel and DC have been reprinting their books since the get go.

They have; often in book form and sold in book stores. (Such as back in the 70's.) But you didn't have the wholesale prsentation like with the Marvel Essentials or Showcase Presents books until recently; and those are readily available everywhere.

>its THE vital part of the industry today and without them as a "proving grounds" for independent books, you don't have half the material of the last 40 years

In the early 80's I would have agreed, but Marvel and DC pretty much squeezed the independents out of the comic shops by the late 80's. (After they started the process on their own....) Part of the crash in the 90's was 'cos the Image paradigm had taken over, and once folks got bored with that there was little else for them.

Most of the experimentation these days takes place online.

>you don't support your small comic shop your really not supporting comics.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics. And I think that's the probelm we have in perspectives. Yeah; the big two and a half have been hammered pretty hard the last decade, and with their decline so too has the comic shop seen a drop in patronage; but I think that's because the two had become intrinsicly linked. But superheroes aren't the total of comic books; there's a LOT more out there, which is why I think now is a boom time for comics. I'm not special ordering things I want; I'm buying them from the local bookstore. I have access to stuff from all over the world, from the beginning of the 20th century to now. I see kids reading comics; something that was an oddity 10, 15 years back. (When I worked at the comic shop in the early/mid 90's we didn't get many kids. And the ones we DID get were mostly speculators.) I see popular series' going into third and fourth printings; breaking the idea of comics as currency, and returning them to the "thing to be read" category. If anything, it's the folks who HAVE patronized the comic shops of the last 20 years that haven't been supporting comics, 'cos it's because of them that the definition became so narrow, and the subject matter became so inbred.

Don C.

[Janson]

>Marvel and DC have been reprinting their books since the get go.

They have; often in book form and sold in book stores. (Such as back in the 70's.) But you didn't have the wholesale prsentation like with the Marvel Essentials or Showcase Presents books until recently; and those are readily available everywhere.

>its THE vital part of the industry today and without them as a "proving grounds" for independent books, you don't have half the material of the last 40 years

In the early 80's I would have agreed, but Marvel and DC pretty much squeezed the independents out of the comic shops by the late 80's. (After they started the process on their own....) Part of the crash in the 90's was 'cos the Image paradigm had taken over, and once folks got bored with that there was little else for them.

Most of the experimentation these days takes place online.

>you don't support your small comic shop your really not supporting comics.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics. And I think that's the probelm we have in perspectives. Yeah; the big two and a half have been hammered pretty hard the last decade, and with their decline so too has the comic shop seen a drop in patronage; but I think that's because the two had become intrinsicly linked. But superheroes aren't the total of comic books; there's a LOT more out there, which is why I think now is a boom time for comics. I'm not special ordering things I want; I'm buying them from the local bookstore. I have access to stuff from all over the world, from the beginning of the 20th century to now. I see kids reading comics; something that was an oddity 10, 15 years back. (When I worked at the comic shop in the early/mid 90's we didn't get many kids. And the ones we DID get were mostly speculators.) I see popular series' going into third and fourth printings; breaking the idea of comics as currency, and returning them to the "thing to be read" category. If anything, it's the folks who HAVE patronized the comic shops of the last 20 years that haven't been supporting comics, 'cos it's because of them that the definition became so narrow, and the subject matter became so inbred.

Don C.

Gonna say it as nice as possible but I just don't agree with anything in your last response. For whatever reason you don't like Comic Shops, thats cool your entitled.


Hmmmm. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. I get the impression that you're pretty married to the idea of old school, superhero, 24 page, center fold comics.
Well that is the format definition of a Comic Book isn't it? We aren't talking about something else like Manga here are we? Cause these kids that you speak of are reading Bleach, that is a Comic Book?
I will say that your line of thinking is in the majority and will be what pushes Comic Shops out finally. Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.
It also sounds like you haven't been to a Comic Shop in 20 years and as someone who has worked in one within the last 5 years, I'm hoping you to go to one. The speculators haven't been there since the late 90's, the majority of the customers genuinely love comics. I'm hoping you go check out a Comic Shop give it a chance, a lot has changed. Conversations with like minded individuals in the LCS or minimum waged assistants who can give a rats ace about Comics.

[ctc]

>I just don't agree with anything in your last response.

That's fine, but if you're gonna disagree I'd like it if you could site some data. Liek I said, I find it hard to believe folks think comics as a whole are on the outs when I see SO MUCH readily available.

>We aren't talking about something else like Manga here are we? Cause these kids that you speak of are reading Bleach, that is a Comic Book?

Sequential illustrations with dialogue that tells a story; yeah, that's a comic all right. I think what's happening is that you're arguing content, rather than medium. Superheroes have taken some knocks the last few years, but that's a genre; not a medium. Comic books are a meduim that encompasses more than just the Big Two and a Half. Bleach is a comic, so is Archie; and I've seen a lot of hardcore fans poo-poo both as not being "real" comics. Which is a shame, since they're poo-pooing the very things that cured the problem they see: getting kids to read comic books. They may not be the ones YOU like, but they're still comics.

>Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.

That is; Marvel and DC.

>It also sounds like you haven't been to a Comic Shop in 20 years and as someone who has worked in one within the last 5 years, I'm hoping you to go to one.

Ad hominem. I go about twice a month.

>The speculators haven't been there since the late 90's, the majority of the customers genuinely love comics.

....which is what hammered the Big Two and a Half: a lot of the expansion during the late 80's and early 90's was because of the speculators. Once the multiple holo-foil-limited-edition 0-fifty variant-glow in the dark cover thing scared them away the bottom fell out. I suspect your point is a big factor in why they started the big reprint compilations: there was an audiecne who wanted to READ the books. Marvel: Esssentials are strictly reading books. That's why I think folks should be OVERJOYED about them compilations; they get people READING comics, which is what you need to expand your audience. And getting them into bookstores is great too, 'cos the kids who grew up on stuff like Bleach will eventually look for something different. If Batman is readily available and affordable they'll give it a go.

The challenge for comic shops is mitigating the crossover. For way too long, comic shops have been cloisters for those aforementioned folks who poo-poo Bleach and Archie. Hence why they missed the revolution. The kids who read Bleach and Archie would never think to step into a comic shop 'cos for so long nothing there really interested them.

....but even if they don't switch over, it's all cyclical. There have been times in the past when superheroes were on the downswing. They're not going away.

Don C.

[Janson]

When did I poo poo Archie? All I'm talking about is Superhero's and the Big 2 and a half? Your jumping to alot of assumptions in your replys.


>Then we all can enjoy the same titles that Disney and Warner pump out.
That is; Marvel and DC.
( Sorry, but no duh, who doesn't know that. You obviously are misunderstanding my point)


Sequential illustrations with dialogue that tells a story; yeah, that's a comic all right.
I can't argue with what you want to call something but there is a reason its called Manga because it Manga (presented in a different format which changes how a story is told). Comics and Manga are all Graphic Novels, the correct all encomposing term.

And you go to these festering and cynical Comic Shops 2x a month, why?
Man you are one jaded Comic fan, to go to a place you dislike so much.

[ctc]

>I can't argue with what you want to call something but there is a reason its called Manga because it Manga (presented in a different format which changes how a story is told). Comics and Manga are all Graphic Novels, the correct all encomposing term.

Semantics. "Manga" is the Japanese word for comic book. "Gekiga" would be closer to what we consider a "graphic novel." But either way; I don't think the publishing format really matters: it alters how the books are consumed, but not the content of the story.

>And you go to these festering and cynical Comic Shops 2x a month, why?

To get comics.

>Man you are one jaded Comic fan, to go to a place you dislike so much.

Straw Man. I don't dislike comic shops; but I think the Big Two and a Half worked themselves into a corner mining them as they had for the last 20 years.

Don C.

[Janson]

Name calling. Tsk tsk ctc tsk tsk.

[samurainoir]

Name calling. Tsk tsk ctc tsk tsk.

Janson, I don't think Don is calling you a "Straw Man", but referring to your statement about him.
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)

I honestly don't think we have much to worry about when it comes to the comics that Marvel and DC put out even if Diamond and the direct market collapses in on itself (which at this point is a not impossible scenario).

I would argue that they have pretty much secured their positions better than all other print publication out there this side of Stephen King and John Grisham. The comics are small change when it comes to the big bucks of licensing action figures and making movies. However, the comics continue to function as content fodder for the toys, movies and video games in the cross horizontal integration of product within the corporate entity of both Warner and Disney. Dark Horse and the major mini-fiefdoms of Image would likewise probably be okay. It's the rest of the guys in the back of the Previews catalogue that would be in trouble, particularly the mostly mom and pop small press publishers without deep pockets to get them through a cash crunch. A healthy industry should not rely on one distributer.

But you are right in your concern for the small business owner/local comic shop who is caught up in all of this. I have the greatest sympathy for the little guy struggling to survive in this market, but it just shows that the old paradigm is potentially broken, as well as being challenged by digital, and they need to embrace new business models to survive. And I'm not just talking about jumping on every trend from Beanies to Trading Cards to Pogs to Heroclix.

Here are a few of examples of stores that I am confident could survive the collapse of Diamond and the direct market because they have diversified their clientele and product...
http://www.beguiling.com/index.php
Page 45 Homepage (http://www.page45.com/)
LABYRINTH BOOKS Toronto Comics MANGA and GRAPHIC NOVELS - TORONTO (http://animationroadshow.blogspot.com/)

[Janson]

I honestly don't think we have much to worry about when it comes to the comics that Marvel and DC put out even if Diamond and the direct market collapses in on itself (which at this point is a not impossible scenario).

I would argue that they have pretty much secured their positions better than all other print publication out there this side of Stephen King and John Grisham. The comics are small change when it comes to the big bucks of licensing action figures and making movies. However, the comics continue to function as content fodder for the toys, movies and video games in the cross horizontal integration of product within the corporate entity of both Warner and Disney. Dark Horse and the major mini-fiefdoms of Image would likewise probably be okay. It's the rest of the guys in the back of the Previews catalogue that would be in trouble, particularly the mostly mom and pop small press publishers without deep pockets to get them through a cash crunch. A healthy industry should not rely on one distributer.


You don't get any arguement from me there. Big 2 will be fine, DH and Image fine as well. But I don't just read books from these companies, am I the only one who picks up titles from Avatar, Boom!, Blue Water, Aardvark-Vanaheim, Archia, SLG, should I go on?
I know BnN aint carrying these books with their low numbers. Alot of the really small guys will skip floppys and go straight to graphic novel/trade because Diamond doesn't have as strick preorders on trades. The single issue format has been dead since the 90's but it will be completely gone with this change. We wil miss out on alot of great stories because of this.

Correct me if i'm wrong but alot of the Marvel and DC titles I read aren't carried in BnN either, do they have Vertigo or Max/Icon single issues or trades even? I'm sure that's why people come to shops still because BnN ain't carrying the good stuff (not until its profitable anyway). So why support that?
What is the biggest problem with the whole situation from the get go is the Diamond monopoly. If BnN gives shops an alternative to distribution I'm all for it, good luck with that though.
Its scary that comics readership is up yet comic shops are still suffering atleast comics are keeping BnN in business.

[Janson]

[QUOTE]
I know BnN aint carrying these books with their low numbers. Alot of the really small guys will skip floppys and go straight to graphic novel/trade because Diamond doesn't have as strick preorders on trades. The single issue format has been dead since the 90's but it will be completely gone with this change. We wil miss out on alot of great stories because of this.
[QUOTE]

Sorry, my last post got cut off. Just wanted to add that Stan , Jack and Steve didn't always need to stretch a great story beyond its intention, 22 pages can be adequate as well. One problem I have with BnN is they are helping force a story to always be streched out into 6-8 issues so that they can have a trade and then give that deep discount on Secret Invasion trades, blah:googly:.
I think when I go to get my Free Comics from BnN this weekend I'll drop off my pull list too:silly:.

[MIB41]

I think the days of printed media are slowly coming to an end. The industry trend would certainly suggest that. Look at the number of newspapers that have closed? Look at the established hobby magazines like Toyfare that have closed their doors? Most everything is geared to online viewing. Kids spend all their time on Facebook and texting. I'm afraid a comic book will only remain viable if placed online. Kindles are becoming all the rage for those who enjoy reading. It only makes sense that comics will move to that format. I also say this because these companies are publicly traded and their investors will expect them to stay current with the times. Think of the savings if printing and distribution costs are eliminated? That's massive. While that doesn't sound inviting for those of us who grew up on the printed art form, I am afraid that is status of today's industry. Sad but unavoidable. Comic books in their current form are comparable to what VHS is to Blu-ray - dated and no longer cost efficient. Online is the only way to keep them alive. :ugh_y:

[Janson]

I think the days of printed media are slowly coming to an end. The industry trend would certainly suggest that. Look at the number of newspapers that have closed? Look at the established hobby magazines like Toyfare that have closed their doors? Most everything is geared to online viewing. Kids spend all their time on Facebook and texting. I'm afraid a comic book will only remain viable if placed online. Kindles are becoming all the rage for those who enjoy reading. It only makes sense that comics will move to that format. I also say this because these companies are publicly traded and their investors will expect them to stay current with the times. Think of the savings if printing and distribution costs are eliminated? That's massive. While that doesn't sound inviting for those of us who grew up on the printed art form, I am afraid that is status of today's industry. Sad but unavoidable. Comic books in their current form are comparable to what VHS is to Blu-ray - dated and no longer cost efficient. Online is the only way to keep them alive. :ugh_y:

Yeah it is sad, comics where one of the few things that we where competely producing 100% in the States till the big 2 moved the printing to Canada a couple years ago. Eh, what tangible product do we still make here in the States anyway?

[Janson]

OK, so I'm reading the newest issue of Walking Dead last night, #84 and I swear I feel like Rick Grimes. (If your not reading Walking Dead every month your missing out on the finest book the comics industry puts out today. Don't wait for trade buy the floppies!)
Ok so if you aren't up to date stop reading this......spoiler alert.





---------------------------------------------------------
Rick and company are able to over power the zombie horde by working together with their smaller numbers. Alone and in somber reflection of the days events with his mortally wounded son Carl, Rick at Carl's bedside says,


"I can't believe it took me this long to realize this. After so long, being driven from one place to the next... I noticed, it was always PEOPLE-- that was the problem.
I can't believe I'm saying this... but the dead. They're A manageable threat?
I see the mistake I made wanting to run... not being willing to stand and fight...it cost Jesse and Ron their lives I have to live with that...
But I've seen what we can do with numbers. I've seen how we can organize plan... how if we do things right... if everyone does their part... we can survive anything.
This place is OURS , the fence, the houses...we can make this home. We've been lazy up until now. But that all changes. Today- this instant.
I see now what we can do, with enough people, with a strategy... we can make this place much more safe... secure.
We can set up roadblocks-- surround this place with a maze for the dead. Keeping them off the walls in significant numbers.
We can rebuild the walls, stronger, taller... make our community better than it ever was."

I know its just a story but man I think Kirkman might be using this as a metaphor for the comics community as a whole.
I know how you feel Rick, its not easy fight off the BnN zombie horde with one hand and a axe, kidding kidding.:smile:

[samurainoir]

You don't get any arguement from me there. Big 2 will be fine, DH and Image fine as well. But I don't just read books from these companies, am I the only one who picks up titles from Avatar, Boom!, Blue Water, Aardvark-Vanaheim, Archia, SLG, should I go on?


I read titles from all those companies, but let's face it, a majority of comic shops just aren't stocking titles from the indies in significant numbers these days unless you special order them.

Which is why I see comics shops surviving based on two models... the diversified bookstore model embraced by the Beguiling and Page 45 (and a few San Francisco comic shops I've been to, who's names escape me right now), or as limited edition collectibles once again with a very niche market. The Big Two do this with their variant covers, and you have other companies of varying sizes doing the same... including dynamite, IDW, Boom, and Avatar off the top of my head.

The problem with this is that to get these limited edition incentives, the store has to order piles and piles of comics that no one reads and just ends up in the quarter bins. We saw it happen with the Brightest Day Ring promotions... huge success for DC, but I just see the piles of the peripheral tie in comics all over the place unloved and unwanted. It's the serpeant eating it's own tail in the nineties all over again unless you truly are creating something that has much less supply than demand (and we're not just talking the news headline "event" blips like the death of so and so), and an actual readership for each copy purchased. Which goes at cross purposes of how a money-making comic company has functioned in the past couple of decades.

You know the situation is rather dire when Dave Sim has jumped on the Variant Cover, Limited Edition bandwagon just to sell enough copies of Glamourpuss to keep it going (but that's another discussion completely).

http://www.comicsbulletin.com/news/images/0806/Zombie_Glamourpuss.jpg

We should watch the ipap/android apps with a great deal of interest over the next year. The growth and profitability isn't quite there, but it took a while for the various internet models of comics (ie penny arcade etc) to find a groove as well. It's astonishing how many of the most successful free content guys made the jump to being able to cultivate an audience for their print incarnations, or that some managed to thrive with ad revenue (which is essentially how the old school comics did it). Meanwhile, Marvel and DC's internet initiatives have mostly been going down in flames (some that corporate infrastructure heavy however, would be difficult to find profitability).

[samurainoir]

Yeah it is sad, comics where one of the few things that we where competely producing 100% in the States till the big 2 moved the printing to Canada a couple years ago. Eh, what tangible product do we still make here in the States anyway?

I should point out with great Canadian pride, that I believe the Great White North had been handling comic book printing for much longer than that... a couple of decades at least?

With more typical Canadian humility I must also admit that Quebecor has also been in bankrupcy for the past few years. Which also added to industry strife and hardship.

[Janson]

Glamourpuss is amazing. I love the content, my girlfriend loves to cut them up when i'm done, damn FIT fashionista.

[ctc]

>While that doesn't sound inviting for those of us who grew up on the printed art form

I don't know if we'll ever see the complete death of the printed book. When it comes to comics, a lot of places follow the Cyberpunk model and put stuff up on print on demand sites. It's a direct way to get revenue from your project with little cost. Webcomics do this a lot, after creating enough of a backfile to warrant assembly of a book.

>The growth and profitability isn't quite there

Well.... I think it works like it did for the music industry: the profitability for a big company like Marvel isn't there yet, but for the little guys it's a godsend. You can get your stuff out there for little cost, and you can even have it produced in hardcopy by print in demand places for those who want. (Again, with little cost.) 'Course you're not gonna be able to quit your day job unless you're one of the lucky few who hits; but that's true of the old school comic industry too.

>the Great White North had been handling comic book printing for much longer than that... a couple of decades at least?

Oh yeah. I went to highschool with the son of the owner of Preney Print and Litho; and that was back in the early 80's.

Don C.

[Janson]

I should point out with great Canadian pride, that I believe the Great White North had been handling comic book printing for much longer than that... a couple of decades at least?

With more typical Canadian humility I must also admit that Quebecor has also been in bankrupcy for the past few years. Which also added to industry strife and hardship.

Just grabbed a copy of ETERNALS #1 from 2008 and it was printed in the USA. I can't speak for Canadian issues but our floppies where printed here until pretty recently.

[Janson]

Looks like you are right about Canada printing the Lion share of trades and Graphic Novels. First thing I checked was my BnN Marvel Milestone Amazing Spider-Man vol. 2(it was a gift) then my Essential Rampaing Hulk vol. 1 both printed in Canada. Damn Canadians stealing our printing, this is probably why I subconsciously hate trades.
JK, I love the Great White North.

[samurainoir]

Just grabbed a copy of ETERNALS #1 from 2008 and it was printed in the USA. I can't speak for Canadian issues but our floppies where printed here until pretty recently.

It's the same source for the most part I believe. Your floppies have Canadian cover prices on them underneath the US right? Keep in mind the Quebecor bankrupcy occurred in 2008. Grabbed a random stack issues I have lying around the office right now...

Batman Vs Predator #1 (DC) - 1991 "Printed in Canada"
Philip K Dick's Electric Ant #2 (Marvel) - 2010 "Printed in Canada"
George RR Martin's Fevre Dream (Avatar) - 2010 "Printed in Canada"
Robert E Howard's Kings of Night (Dark Horse) - 1990 "Printed in Canada"
Captain Action #1 (Moonstone) - 2008 "Printed in Canada"
Stainless Steel Rat #2 (Eagle Comics) - 1985 "Printed in Canada"
HedgeKnight #4 (Marvel) - 2008 "Printed in Canada"
Micronauts #1 (Image) - 2002 "Printed in Canada"
Kiss Psycho Circus #1 (Image) - 1997 "Printed in Canada"
Alien Worlds #1 (Eclipse) - 1985 "Printed in Canada"
Temporary Natives (Marvel/Epic) - 1990 "Printed in Canada"
American Splendor (DC/Vertigo) - 2008 "Printed in Canada"

exceptions...
RIP Brasher #1 (TSR) - 1990 "Printed in USA"
Adventures of Captain America #1 (Marvel) 1991 "Printed in the USA"

Dawn of the Dead #3 (IDW) - 2004 "Printed in Korea" (!)
Night of the Living Dead #3 (Dead Dog) - 2004 "Printed in Hong Kong"

Spiderman vs Wolverine #1 (Marvel) - 1987... no indication.


(wow... can you tell how badly I'm procrastinating from my deadline tomorrow? It's going to be a late night if I keep goofing off on the internet like this)

[samurainoir]

Damn Canadians stealing our printing, this is probably why I subconsciously hate trades.
JK, I love the Great White North.

Alas, Canada too Fits into the vastness of Mother Russia. :grin:

[Janson]

It's the same source for the most part I believe. Your floppies have Canadian cover prices on them underneath the US right? Keep in mind the Quebecor bankrupcy occurred in 2008. Grabbed a random stack issues I have lying around the office right now...

Batman Vs Predator #1 (DC) - 1991 "Printed in Canada"
Philip K Dick's Electric Ant #2 (Marvel) - 2010 "Printed in Canada"
George RR Martin's Fevre Dream (Avatar) - 2010 "Printed in Canada"
Robert E Howard's Kings of Night (Dark Horse) - 1990 "Printed in Canada"
Captain Action #1 (Moonstone) - 2008 "Printed in Canada"
Stainless Steel Rat #2 (Eagle Comics) - 1985 "Printed in Canada"
HedgeKnight #4 (Marvel) - 2008 "Printed in Canada"
Micronauts #1 (Image) - 2002 "Printed in Canada"
Kiss Psycho Circus #1 (Image) - 1997 "Printed in Canada"
Alien Worlds #1 (Eclipse) - 1985 "Printed in Canada"
Temporary Natives (Marvel/Epic) - 1990 "Printed in Canada"
American Splendor (DC/Vertigo) - 2008 "Printed in Canada"

exceptions...
RIP Brasher #1 (TSR) - 1990 "Printed in USA"
Adventures of Captain America #1 (Marvel) 1991 "Printed in the USA"

Dawn of the Dead #3 (IDW) - 2004 "Printed in Korea" (!)
Night of the Living Dead #3 (Dead Dog) - 2004 "Printed in Hong Kong"

Spiderman vs Wolverine #1 (Marvel) - 1987... no indication.


(wow... can you tell how badly I'm procrastinating from my deadline tomorrow? It's going to be a late night if I keep goofing off on the internet like this)

Here is a couple recent books I picked up last week:
Publisher - Title - Country Printed
Boom! - Incorruptible 17 - USA
DC - Jonah Hex 65 - Canada
Dynamite - Red Sonja ROTG 2 - Canada
IDW - GI JOE ARAH 165 - Korea
Marvel - Ruse 2 - Canada
Aardvark Vanaheim-GLamourpuss 18 - Canada (duh)
Image - Invincible 79 - USA
SLG - Royal Historian of OZ 4 - CANADA
Dark Horse - SW Darth Vader +TLC 4 - USA

So most of the single issue printing has moved up North as well not just trades. This still is a recent change for us in the States as far as floppies are concerned.

[Janson]

I am also noticing cover price seems to reflect where the issue is printed, most of my books that printed outside of the US have a $3.99 cover price.

Here is 4 random issues of FF
542 - March 2007 - USA
565 - May 2009 - Canada
566 - July 2009 - USA
573 - January 2010 -USA

All had a 2.99 cover price.