Does anyone really believe these guys are dead? (spoilers)

[samurainoir]

Punisher...
http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/punish.jpg

Kyle Rayner...
http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/gl.jpg

[BlackKnight]

Where's the Rayner Pic from ?
... I personally Thought During Blackest Night, something was gonna Happen to 1 of the 4 Earth Lanterns. ... Death, or someone would become a different Lantern. I find it hard to believe that Johns would Kill Rayner. It doesn't really fit his M/O .

[johnnystorm]

That's from GLCorps #43,this week's issue. I seriously doubt either is really dead or even will be in the opening pages of the next issue.

Solicitations from DC for the past month or so revealed Guy Gardner becoming a Red Lantern.

[toys2cool]

no way :grin:

[BlackKnight]

Solicitations from DC for the past month or so revealed Guy Gardner becoming a Red Lantern.

Makes Perfect Sense..., Even more so considering , I think whenever any Black Lantern ever See's Him,.. he is Always Red, and Never a Different color.

[Captain]

Of course they are dead. When somebody dies in a comic storyline, they stay dead...Dont they?.....I mean....why it would be unethical to.............Bah--I cant continue on with a straight face, NOBODY dies in comics...EVER. They just get messed up, their continuity spit on, and then get revived a couple of times by pimply faced hacks, who again spit on past history, before its done in an acceptable way. Its the new gold standard of the business!

[jwyblejr]

Doesn't it mean Kyle will wind up being a Black Lantern anyways?

[thunderbolt]

Where's the Rayner Pic from ?
... I personally Thought During Blackest Night, something was gonna Happen to 1 of the 4 Earth Lanterns. ... Death, or someone would become a different Lantern. I find it hard to believe that Johns would Kill Rayner. It doesn't really fit his M/O .

How does killing someone not fit Johns's m/o?

[The Bat]

I'm gonna go out on a Limb here...Kyle will be back.:grin:

[Meule]

Almost every superhero has dies at one point and they always come back... almost always

[johnnystorm]

A funny aside to this conversation...whenever I attempt to explain a storyline from the comics to my non-reader wife, she will say to me "Don't ever complain about soap operas to me again, they are the same thing except the characters don't wear costumes & punch each other, they wear business suits and have sex."
Yesterday she's listening to some interview with soap guyEric Braeden (from Rat Patrol!), and he's telling them about how his character was killed off during his contract negotiations, but since they came to agreement, they'll be bringing him back from the dead in "a stunning new plotline!". I just pictured him with a Black Lantern ring ripping hearts out of his co-stars!

[Earth 2 Chris]

A funny aside to this conversation...whenever I attempt to explain a storyline from the comics to my non-reader wife, she will say to me "Don't ever complain about soap operas to me again, they are the same thing except the characters don't wear costumes & punch each other, they wear business suits and have sex."
Yesterday she's listening to some interview with soap guyEric Braeden (from Rat Patrol!), and he's telling them about how his character was killed off during his contract negotiations, but since they came to agreement, they'll be bringing him back from the dead in "a stunning new plotline!". I just pictured him with a Black Lantern ring ripping hearts out of his co-stars!

Ah...Victor from The Young and the Restless. And don't give me grief, he's been on that show since the dawn of time, and that was my mom's favorite soap. I saw on one of the Soap Digest covers in the checkout line that he had been let go. Guess he's back.

As for Kyle, Johns could have killed him during Rebirth and he didn't. That was the easy way out with Kyle, but he actually made him a lynch pin to the whole series. Maybe Kyle will "infiltrate" the Black Lanterns?

Punisher has been dead a few times already right? I know at one time he came back as an undead monster killer or something? Had some mystic tattoo on his head.


EDITED TO ADD: What in the heck happened to the Punisher? Crossover with Wolverine go bad? That is one of the most gruesome panels I've seen with a mainstream character. Ugh.

Chris

[Timothy2251]

The Punisher? Hacked to pieces in a dark, rainy alley? Merely resting after a prolonged squawk.
Kyle Rayner? Savagely beaten? He's just pining for the fjords.

[jds1911a1]

Punisher - we should be so lucky talk about a character who has outlived usefulness

Kyle - my prediction a hiatus before the 3rd coming of ION to end all the lantern rainbow madness when sales begin to drop

[Riffster]

I hope not I like Kyle, could care less for Punisher, for Kyle if Jade is coming back he needs to be around.

[Cosmicman]

I heard Frank Castle is going to get "stitched back together" after he was all cut up and he is going to become a modern Frankenstein that is in charge of a "monster squad" with a Werewolf and a vampire. :smiley1:

I did seriously read that.

As for Kyle Raynor being dead. So what? How many human Green Lantern's do we need in this sector?

Alan, Hal and John should be it!!!! Kill off Guy Gardener while they're cleaning house. Annoying!!!

[fallensaviour]

I'm so glad I never collected the punisher after the ending of the first series..... :googly:
Never did get into green lantern at all.
So I'm okay with either one and we all know they will come back or it just really wasn't them.

[aquatroy]

The Punisher? Hacked to pieces in a dark, rainy alley? Merely resting after a prolonged squawk.
Kyle Rayner? Savagely beaten? He's just pining for the fjords.

Kyle died saving the central battery from the Black Lanterns that had attacked OA (see Green Lantern Corp 42). Kyle's GF is a doctor and a GL. I bet that she saves his bacon. The question for me is does Kyle get his ring back or does he get a different color ring (maybe blue?). The Guardians passed a moratorium on new recruits with the rings of deceased GL's going to Mogo.
Kyle is on the cover of GLC 44. However, the cover doesn't show Kyle in action and covers and the interiors of today's comics don't have much in common.

[ctc]

>The question for me is does Kyle get his ring back or does he get a different color ring (maybe blue?).

I'll guess his act of nobility will make an impression on the battery itself and he'll be reanimated as a being of pure energy/light/power/goodness.

Don C.

[samurainoir]

Looks like they are going to try "Franken Castle" as the next Marvel Monster ala Marvel Zombies.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_IqWu_JOFdiA/SvF8VWh3awI/AAAAAAAAAN4/eTBt9VT85u0/frankencastle_november_2009.jpg

I have to say that this is the most extreme violence that I've ever seen in a non-Max Marvel book. Daken graphically cuts Punisher to pieces on-screen!

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_IqWu_JOFdiA/SvF8Sn_CYpI/AAAAAAAAAN0/xdns-lOyBdI/1256833899.jpg

So who'd win in a fight... Franken Castle or Franken Berry?

[BlackKnight]

I so Loathe Romita jr.'s work... It pains be to even look at it.
Nice promotional Ad for the series, or story. Interesting How Romita jr.'s art isn't presented on that Flyer. How does that guy even get work ? .. He's gotta be hands down the Most over-rated Artist , that seems to get everything thrown at him.

Good luck to anyone who wants to get involved with that Nonsense.

BTW.. DAKEN = Worst Comicbook Character Ever thats in like 5 Books Now. Nice Bone Claws that seem to be able to slice perfectly like a Knife, but they are always drawn Round. :sarky:

[thunderbolt]

So, is Dokken ,or whatever his name is, Wolverine's boy?

[The Bat]

I guess they killed Kyle because...nobody would have given a Rat's Arse if it had been John Stewart.:grin::smiley1:

[thunderbolt]

who the heck cares about Kyle?? He was kicked to the curb in favor of bringing back Hal.

[thunderbolt]

Anybody got good pics of Frankencastle? That's kind of...interesting.

[Raydeen1]

I disagree, most over rated "artist" ever is Rob Liefeld.


I so Loathe Romita jr.'s work... It pains be to even look at it.
Nice promotional Ad for the series, or story. Interesting How Romita jr.'s art isn't presented on that Flyer. How does that guy even get work ? .. He's gotta be hands down the Most over-rated Artist , that seems to get everything thrown at him.

Good luck to anyone who wants to get involved with that Nonsense.

BTW.. DAKEN = Worst Comicbook Character Ever thats in like 5 Books Now. Nice Bone Claws that seem to be able to slice perfectly like a Knife, but they are always drawn Round. :sarky:

[The Toyroom]

So, is Dokken ,or whatever his name is, Wolverine's boy?

Daken is Wolverine's kid, yeah....

[The Toyroom]

I so Loathe Romita jr.'s work... It pains be to even look at it.
Nice promotional Ad for the series, or story. Interesting How Romita jr.'s art isn't presented on that Flyer. How does that guy even get work ? .. He's gotta be hands down the Most over-rated Artist , that seems to get everything thrown at him.

He used to be ok very early on in his career on Spider-Man....but once he went X-Men I thought he's gotten worse and worse. His father is a freakin' legend....Jr. is not.




BTW.. DAKEN = Worst Comicbook Character Ever thats in like 5 Books Now. Nice Bone Claws that seem to be able to slice perfectly like a Knife, but they are always drawn Round. :sarky:

Agreed.....Maybe it's just me but I can do without all of these sons and daughters walking around....

Hulk has Skaar now, there's a new She-Hulk based on the Hulk and Thundra's DNA, and in all of these alternate realities (The Ultimates, Old Ma Logan, etc.) the Hulk is like the horniest soma***** ever....

Wolverine has Daken and the X-23 Clone....

These guys need to keep it in their pants and get back to fighting badguys :smiley1:

[BlackKnight]

I disagree, most over rated "artist" ever is Rob Liefeld.


You need to read his Hawk & Dove.
Rob can draw Miles around Romita jr. ..., and by no Means is that saying anything. :wink_y:

[thunderbolt]

When's wolvie going to gut him like a fish? And, sorry, Liefeld isn't good enough to carry Romita's bags.

[thunderbolt]

Still waiting on Frankencastle pics.

[The Bat]

And, sorry, Liefeld isn't good enough to carry Romita's bags.


DAMMIT!! I gotta agree with Joe.:ugh_y::smiley1:

[Earth 2 Chris]

Romita is a fine artist. His style has just ventured off into a really strange direction over the years. I can't say I like it, but like Anthony said, his earliest ASM run was great.

The brutality of those Punisher pages is really disturbing. I know the Punisher is a violent killler, but for the most part most of his questionable actions were off camera.

I know I'm going into old fogey mode, but comics have really gotten just down-right trashy. There is absolutely no quotient of good taste left in most of them anymore. Anything goes.

Chris

[Raydeen1]

Like I said.....:silly:

DAMMIT!! I gotta agree with Joe.:ugh_y::smiley1:

[Raydeen1]

Hulk ripped Wolvie in 2 just a year or so ago. Years ago, Wolvie slashed out the Hulk's throat in What If? The difference with the What If comic was the "hidden" gore. lol. I actually like to concept here to a degree. If it's going to be mainstream, not so much but as an Elseworld's type of thing, it could be ok. I have no love for the Punisher but I think it's more becuase of the overkill of the character than the idea. Haven't read a Punisher story in years. This Dokken kid is just a mess. Almost as bad an idea as Damien. Now there's a team up comic screaming to be made. :)


Looks like they are going to try "Franken Castle" as the next Marvel Monster ala Marvel Zombies.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_IqWu_JOFdiA/SvF8VWh3awI/AAAAAAAAAN4/eTBt9VT85u0/frankencastle_november_2009.jpg

I have to say that this is the most extreme violence that I've ever seen in a non-Max Marvel book. Daken graphically cuts Punisher to pieces on-screen!

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_IqWu_JOFdiA/SvF8Sn_CYpI/AAAAAAAAAN0/xdns-lOyBdI/1256833899.jpg

So who'd win in a fight... Franken Castle or Franken Berry?

[BlackKnight]

How is Rob over-rated, when no one liked his work to begin with ?
Romita jr. is over rated and here is why...
The only reason this guy even gets work, is because of what his Dad Did.
He's Horrible.
Go buy what you want..., But I refuse to ever buy a Book that guy Draws.

[VintageMike]

Only supporting characters ever stay dead. Main heroes/villians always come back without fail. There used to be somewhat of a line. But that line was crossed when they brought Norman Osborn back and obliterated when Bucky was brough back. Of course the Barry Allen Flash is back at DC.

[Raydeen1]

For someone who's work nobody liked, he sure sold a lot of comics in the 90s.

But let's go a step further, pretty much ALL the Image crew were/are over rated. Moreso than Romita Jr.


How is Rob over-rated, when no one liked his work to begin with ?
Romita jr. is over rated and here is why...
The only reason this guy even gets work, is because of what his Dad Did.
He's Horrible.
Go buy what you want..., But I refuse to ever buy a Book that guy Draws.

[thunderbolt]

^^^ Amen brother. And you could blame a lot of the comic industries problems on Image and its business model of oversaturating the market. Marvel really followed them in that practice and just about sunk the whole comic world.

[jds1911a1]

When's wolvie going to gut him like a fish? And, sorry, Liefeld isn't good enough to carry Romita's bags.

Isn't this kind of like a heated discussion of who's the better actor Van dame or Lundgren - when both are hacks does it matter who is better?

[samurainoir]

Still waiting on Frankencastle pics.

http://i.newsarama.com/marvelnew/feb2010/83_punisher_14.jpg

They just revealed this cover in the solicitations this morning.

In terms of artistic choices, at least it's going to be drawn by Dan Brereton and Tony Moore (original Walking Dead artist), who are great for this type of material.

I guess time will tell if Franken-Castle is going to be a Marvel Zombies type hit or a Cap-Wolf like joke.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/32345-2400-36075-1-captain-america_super.jpg

[The Toyroom]

Never mind Cap-Wolf....The Punisher has his own skeletons in the closet... All of this "Frankencastle" crap reminds of the time when the Punisher became a black guy due to skin grafts.....

[BlackKnight]

For someone who's work nobody liked, he sure sold a lot of comics in the 90s.


I am really just throwing it out there to "all you haters" that have been there since the start of Bashing the Dude , and who never liked Image to Begin with. He's always had Fans, as well as a Lynch Mob ready for him and his new Book to come out. I don't think he is over-rated at all,.. I really think that you, and anyone who wants to agree with you, are seriously miss-interpreting the Term Over-Rated. :silly:

The Thing with Romita jr... is that they attatch the Dude to these Projects, some of which are "Main events" but you don't know the guy is actually drawing the Book, unless you flip threw. The Smoke and Mirror's of a different cover artist is always trying to sell the Book ..., you buy the Book, then see his Nonsense on the Inside. Look at the Promo- Ad's for this Frankien - Punisher...., Marvel isn't even advertising using Romita jr's art ..., they got all these other guys in there , trying to build the book up, like it is the greatest thing since Shaved Snatch, and are not even Confident enought to just advertise with His Crap. They did the Same thing to World War Hulk. All this Fich Advertisement for Months until the Book came out,.. then you see it, or get it, & it's Romita jr. Atleast with Rob, he never had a different cover Artist..., you Knew you were going to buy, what you bought from the Cover and Advertisement promotions of his Stuff. With Romita,.. it's seems it has gone down a Smoke and Mirror's route.

[Riffster]

why does half that picture remind me of the invaders from mars attacks

[Werewolf]

[QUOTE=samurainoir;414129]Punisher...
http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/punish.jpg

That is way too gory for a comic book.

Franken-Punisher.

Good grief. :googly:

[jwyblejr]

I wonder if his brain belonged to Abby Normal?

[thunderbolt]

I think Rob is appropriately rated, he sucks. The little rat keeps getting work somehow, tho.

[thunderbolt]

OK, this is cool. Dibs on the custom!!http://i33.tinypic.com/wthugj.jpg

[Earth 2 Chris]

The art choices sound interesting. I'm sure it will be a great looking series. As an aside, Tony Moore is actually from my hometown, and went to the same high school is me. Oddly enough, we have never met. He's a few years younger than me.

Back on topic, this is yet another "shouldn't have gone there" moment for Marvel. There have been tons.

Poor Spidey, the flagship hero, idol of millions has had to endure way too many. Just off the top of my head:

-Has his origin rewritten where he got his powers from a "spider totem".
-Gwen Stacy bumped nasties with Norman Osborn and they had two illegitimate kids that were age accelerated. How is this any better than the clone saga?
-Spidey had his eyeball ripped out and eaten by a badguy. Then he made a cocoon around himself and came out as a savage monster and ate somebody or something.
-He revealed his secret identity because Iron Man thought it was a good idea. The one super hero who KNOWS having your identity known by your enemies gets your loved one killed (again, Gwen Stacy).
-Made a deal with the devil to save his elderly aunt, at the cost of his marriage, even though Aunt May has been living on borrowed time since 1962.

Then there's Iron-Fascist, Reed Richards turning on his family, Scarlet Witch going nuts, and all the other assorted stuff that has gone in the past few years. Captain America has gone through the wringer, but from what I can tell, at least he's stayed in character.

Marvel needs a hard reboot, Crisis-style.


Chris

[The Toyroom]

Marvel needs a hard reboot, Crisis-style.

A quick fix would be to boot Quesada out of the E-I-C slot...

[Raydeen1]

o·ver·rate (vr-rt)
tr.v. o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.

I have to disagree BK. Liefeld was all over EVERYTHING not the least of which was Wizard magazine back then. The ads purposely pushed his name to help sell the books. With Romita, they aren't mentioning him at all. They aren't trying to sell his books BECAUSE of his name. He may be getting work because of his name but he is hardly as overrated as Liefeld. It's more like false advertisement.

Liefeld sucks. He ALWAYS sucked and for the life of me I NEVER understood his fame. At least Romita can draw feet and put a person's neck in the correct spot on their shoulders. I don't like Romita's art either but he is a far better artist than Liefeld ever was.



I am really just throwing it out there to "all you haters" that have been there since the start of Bashing the Dude , and who never liked Image to Begin with. He's always had Fans, as well as a Lynch Mob ready for him and his new Book to come out. I don't think he is over-rated at all,.. I really think that you, and anyone who wants to agree with you, are seriously miss-interpreting the Term Over-Rated. :silly:

The Thing with Romita jr... is that they attatch the Dude to these Projects, some of which are "Main events" but you don't know the guy is actually drawing the Book, unless you flip threw. The Smoke and Mirror's of a different cover artist is always trying to sell the Book ..., you buy the Book, then see his Nonsense on the Inside. Look at the Promo- Ad's for this Frankien - Punisher...., Marvel isn't even advertising using Romita jr's art ..., they got all these other guys in there , trying to build the book up, like it is the greatest thing since Shaved Snatch, and are not even Confident enought to just advertise with His Crap. They did the Same thing to World War Hulk. All this Fich Advertisement for Months until the Book came out,.. then you see it, or get it, & it's Romita jr. Atleast with Rob, he never had a different cover Artist..., you Knew you were going to buy, what you bought from the Cover and Advertisement promotions of his Stuff. With Romita,.. it's seems it has gone down a Smoke and Mirror's route.

[BlackKnight]

It really doesn't matter if you Disagree..., & or Consistantly wanna Debate my Opinion. That's really all any of this is , is an Opinion, I gave mine,.. I stand by it. There is no facts on any of this, you can debate with me till the new yr. I think Romita Suck's Rob's Feet.., & I don't for the Life of me understand why you think he can currently draw feet, let alone anything else. :silly:

[samurainoir]

Never mind Cap-Wolf....The Punisher has his own skeletons in the closet... All of this "Frankencastle" crap reminds of the time when the Punisher became a black guy due to skin grafts.....

Ah yes! Punisher goes "Black Like Me" twenty years after Lois Lane did it. IMHO, it's the lowest Luke Cage ever sunk to given his involvement in this.

http://comicbookdb.com/graphics/comic_graphics/1/12/9023_20051116120845_large.jpg

http://wayneandwax.com/wp/images/LoisLaneBlack.jpg

oh yeah, don't forget...
http://comicbookdb.com/graphics/comic_graphics/1/12/8987_20051115180901_large.jpg

[Raydeen1]

I don't want to debate your opinion. I debated the "overrated" comment. I dislike both of them equally. :silly:

It really doesn't matter if you Disagree..., & or Consistantly wanna Debate my Opinion. That's really all any of this is , is an Opinion, I gave mine,.. I stand by it. There is no facts on any of this, you can debate with me till the new yr. I think Romita Suck's Rob's Feet.., & I don't for the Life of me understand why you think he can currently draw feet, let alone anything else. :silly:

[BlackKnight]

The main Problem with the Punisher , is that He Obviously can not Carry his own Monthly on a regular Basis with just the idea of the character, but it seems Marvel Wants him to so badly. So in turn, they try & try again to throw you some sorta gimic with the character.

He was the Most Wanted Man.
They Caught Him
They then threw Him in the Electric Chair
Guess What ? He came Back, remember than flamming thing on his Forehead ? wasn't he like a Demon with Guns,. or something ?
Then he die's again..., or just wasn't around, or whatever..
Then he comes back to his own Monthly again..., sales dropped.
Enter Cap/Punisher !
& Now... Frankein-Castle.

Meh. :ugh_y:

[jwyblejr]

I'm waiting for the day they turn him into a monkey.

[ctc]

>And you could blame a lot of the comic industries problems on Image and its business model of oversaturating the market

Yes and no. Image did one unfortunate thing: they made a SCHLOAD of money in a short period of time. This made everyone else go: "say; if we do like them WE can make a schload of money!!!" Which is why comics in the 90's became HORRIFICLY inbred. EVERYTHING looked the same! Companies that had NO RIGHT doing Image-esque books, did! (I'm looking at YOU, Antarctic Press....) When the novelty died off there wasn't anything left and the fans stayed away in droves.

Well, nothing except the Viz stuff. So you can blame Naruto on Image.

Don C.

[ctc]

>I'm waiting for the day they turn him into a monkey.

Ta-dah!:

This Is One Of The Most Exciting New Comic Characters Of The Century? - Marvel Comics - io9 (http://io9.com/5404749/this-is-one-of-the-most-exciting-new-comic-characters-of-the-century)

Don C.

[thunderbolt]

Yeah, Hitman Monkey!!!!
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/8/2009/11/500x_whoismarvelsnewcharacter.jpg

[samurainoir]

Punisher joins the Legion of Monsters/Drac Pack/Howling Commandos/Creature Commandos/Monster Cereal Mascots, fresh off their battle with the Marvel Zombies.

http://i.livescience.com/images/PUNISHER012_Cov_100.jpg

[The Toyroom]

Boy, Marvel seems to be pulling out all the stops with this version of the Punisher...good marketing or just desperation?

[Earth 2 Chris]

Will Universal sue? Don't they own the "bolts-in-the-neck" look?

This looks like a really cool What If?. It blows my mind they did this in "real" continuity.

Chris

[The Toyroom]

I really don't see how a character comes back from something like this and expects to be taken seriously again at some point...oh, wait...this is comic books AND The Punisher we're talking about....the guy has gone black AND has been an angel of death before and has lived to tell the tale.

But in all honesty, it seems like Marvel is writing off the character and is using this as a bump in sales...obviously the Punisher is not as hot a character as he used to be. And yet, Marvel continues to give him series after series and relaunch after relaunch (almost like he's a DC character like Aquaman or Hawkman :sarky:). They should put a moratorium on the Punisher for like 5 years and then bring him back, all grim and gritty like he was originally conceived.

[Riffster]

why do this to the Punisher and bring back Deathlock?

[fallensaviour]

Punisher joins the Legion of Monsters/Drac Pack/Howling Commandos/Creature Commandos/Monster Cereal Mascots, fresh off their battle with the Marvel Zombies.

http://i.livescience.com/images/PUNISHER012_Cov_100.jpg

Stupidest thing I have ever seen in my life!!!
They should have just sent him back to prison. :enraged: :no:
The avenging demon with the thing on his forehead was what killed the character for me years ago.Never ever collected the punisher since.

[Riffster]

tell me it's April 1st?

[thunderbolt]

At least Marvel is having fun with Punny.

[samurainoir]

I think Marvel's willing to do this kind of thing because of the Multiple continuity they run with Ultimate/616/Max these days. If Punisher is running around the Marvel U with Superheroes, it's really no big deal for them to pull off something a bit more in the realm of horror given the fact that it's a fantastical universe of oddities and novelties to begin with. They still have grim and gritty "street" Punisher running around in Punisher Max, and in fact Punisher did disappear from the mainline Marvel U for the duration of most of Garth Ennis' Max Punisher series.

I'm really surprised they didn't dig out the Spiderman Doppleganger to team up with Franken-Castle.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/251/90815-54949-doppelganger_super.jpg

[thunderbolt]

Rick Remender's commentary track for the creation of Frankencastle
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=23775

The more I see of this, the more I want to read the Punisher.